Sunday morning, 9:30'ish -- someone's cutting stones for their driveway, neighbour's washing her car with music cranked up to 11...

As Marcuse said, "there is no free society without silence, without the internal and external spaces of solitude in which the individual freedom can develop".

John, Joseph, Peter, Mary, Adam, Aaron, Jacob, Anna, Andrew, Mark / Marcus, Thomas, and NIMROD THE HUNTER. These are all perfectly fine names.

You almost never hear of an NHL player being upset (in a litigation sort of way) about injuries they got that resulted from fighting (drop the gloves and throw punches).

In general, the one major incident I am aware of that resulted in legal action being taken against a player was when Todd Bertuzzi checked Steve Moore down the the ice from behind and then drove his head/neck into the ice with his stick in some heavy followup hits. This is mentioned in the wikipedia article @eric3579 posted, and hinted at in the article @RedSky posted from the Economist.

In that incident, Steve Moore (a lower-level player on the Colorado Avalanche) had hit Marcus Naslund (a star level player of the Vancouver Canucks) in a previous game. That hit was a fairly normal hockey hit -- Naslund had the puck, Moore intentionally hit him to try to separate him from the puck, but arguably led with his elbow to Naslund's head. It was a dangerous play, that should have be penalized (it wasn't) -- although I don't think Moore intended to cause injury. It is a fast game, sometimes you can't react quick enough to avoid a dangerous collision like that. Still, I think that kind of play should be penalized to make it clear to players that they need to avoid dangerous plays if possible. Steve Moore didn't have a history of dirty or dangerous play, but still.

Anyway, all of that dovetails in pretty nicely with my previous post, specifically about what leads to a "spontaneous fight". Moore, a 3-4th line guy (lower ranks of skill/ability on the team) hit star player Naslund. In almost ANY hockey game where that kind of thing happens, you can expect that somebody from the star's team is going to go over to the offending player and push them around, probably with the intent to fight them. Usually it happens right at the time of the incident, but here it was delayed to a following game between the two teams.

In the next game between Colorado and Vancouver, Moore got challenged by a Vancouver player early in the first period and fought him. But I guess that the lag time and injury to Naslund (he ended up missing 3 games) had brewed up more bad blood than that so many Vancouver players hadn't gotten it fully out of their systems. Later in the game, Todd Bertuzzi skated up behind Moore when he didn't have the puck, grabbed him and tailed him for several seconds trying to get him into a second fight, and when he didn't respond just hauled back and punched him in the back of the head.

Moore fell to the ice, where Bertuzzi piled on him and drove his head into the ice. A big scrum/dogpile ensued, with Moore on the bottom. As a result of that, Moore fractured 3 vertebrae in his neck, stretched or tore some neck ligaments, got his face pretty cut up, etc. Pretty severe injuries.

So, in comparison:
Moore (lesser skill) hit Naslund (high skill) resulting in a minor(ish) injury, that could have ended up being much worse. But, it was a legitimate hockey play that just happened to occur at a time when Naslund was vulnerable -- arguably no intent to harm/injure.
Bertuzzi hit Moore in a following game, after he had already "answered" for his hit on Naslund by fighting a Vancouver player. Bertuzzi punched him from behind and followed up with further violence, driving his head into the ice and piling on him, initiating a dogpile. Not even close to a legitimate hockey play, well away from the puck, and with pretty clear intent to harm (maybe not to injure, but to harm).


Moore sued Bertuzzi, his team (the Canucks), and the NHL. Bertuzzi claimed that his coach had put a "bounty" on Moore, and that he hadn't intended to injure him -- just to get back at him for his hit on Naslund. Bertuzzi was suspended for a fairly long span of time, and his team was fined $250,000. The lawsuit was kind of on pause for a long time to gauge the long-term effects on Moore, but was eventually settled out of court (confidential terms).

All of this stuff is or course related to violence in hockey, but only loosely tied to fighting in hockey. Some would argue (with some merit in my opinion) that if the refs had called a penalty on Moore's hit on Naslund, and allowed a Vancouver player to challenge him to a fight at that time instead of the following game, it probably wouldn't have escalated to the level it did.

So, at least in my opinion, the league (NHL) needs to be careful, consistent, and fairly harsh in handing out penalties/suspensions to players who commit dangerous plays that can or do result in injuries -- especially repeat offenders. BUT, I think that allowing fighting can actually help mitigate that kind of stuff also -- as long as the league keeps it from getting out of hand and the enforcer type players continue to follow their "code".

"Enjoy your new instrument of death!"
Marcus Kincaid (Borderlands 2)

I've met a few heavyweight jazz musicians-Dizzy Gillespie, Marcus Roberts, Sonny Rollins, McCoy Tyner, Herbie Mann, uhhh...Met B.B. KIng after a show (all these are in passing after shows) Partied with Ike Willis a couple times in different states (guitar player for Zappa for years)
Played 3 holes of golf onna photo shoot with Nolan Ryan when he pitched for the Astros.
Met a few rock stars, Met and spoke with Roger Daltrey when I was 11 years old atta Mall record shop in Dallas(1976 NA Tour, last with Kieth Moon) , my mom was standing in line to get her albums autographed, and then when it was her turn, she grabbed Daltrey by his head and hi-jacked him with a wet one, got a picture of that one...Daltrey looked overwhelmed and looked over at me and asked, "That your mum?!"

Most impressive star-saturation came Labor Day weekend, 1975 in Atoka Oklahoma atta 3-day outdoor concert event...camp out-I was 10, found a backstage pass onna chain, and wandered around backstage and on buses with a fuckload of country stars.
Waylon Jennings, Jerry Jeff Walker, can't remember em all, I was a little kid but i remember a lotta musicians tripping on me running around backstage-Some thought I was just a roadie's kid.
Met Jerry Lee Lewis backstage there....

September 1, 2011 (CHICAGO) (WLS) -- A South Side Chicago man who admitted shooting and wounding two Chicago Police officers has been found not guilty and released from custody. In this Intelligence Report: How did the shooter's lawyer manage to win such a case?

Twenty-one-year-old Kenneth Green was asleep in his Roseland apartment two years ago when a Chicago Police team showed up with a search warrant for drugs.

Cops used a battering ram to get in.

When police kicked through the bottom of Green's bedroom door, he shot through the door wounding two of the officers. Despite admitting all that, Green got off claiming self-defense.

The early morning raid by police on Green's Roseland apartment building ended in almost three dozen shots fired, mostly by police, after veteran officers Scott McKenna and Danny O'Toole were wounded through the door. The officers would survive, but that day in 2009, Chicago Police Superintendent Jody Weis used the incident to take a stand.

"People are trying to murder police officers left and right," Weis said.

After he shot two policeman, Green was arrested on the spot and charged with attempted murder, aggravated battery with a gun and held without bond.

Last week, after a several day trial, Green was found not guilty. His attorney, Marcus Schantz, told the I-Team that he convinced the jury that Green didn't know they were police outside his door executing a legal search warrant.

I would categorize this as a form of child abuse. If adults want to voluntarily submit to this kind of therapy, I have no problem with it, but forcing children into this kind of psychological abuse is just wrong. >> ^VoodooV:

Unfortunately, stuff like this swings both ways. Ban abortion, but people will still have abortions, they'll just go underground or women will resort to injuring themselves in order to miscarriage.
Ban shithole organizations like this, and they just go underground. Isn't that kinda how Marcus Bachmann's clinic does it? They don't directly come out and say their services are for trying to convert homosexuals, but that's what it's for.
Still, its progress, but preferably, I'd prefer not to resort to a law. People can't be forced to accept homosexuality. I want hate like this driven into the open, not hidden underground. Education is what changes people's minds on stuff like this, not laws.

>> ^VoodooV:

Unfortunately, stuff like this swings both ways. Ban abortion, but people will still have abortions, they'll just go underground or women will resort to injuring themselves in order to miscarriage.
Ban shithole organizations like this, and they just go underground. Isn't that kinda how Marcus Bachmann's clinic does it? They don't directly come out and say their services are for trying to convert homosexuals, but that's what it's for.
Still, its progress, but preferably, I'd prefer not to resort to a law. People can't be forced to accept homosexuality. I want hate like this driven into the open, not hidden underground. Education is what changes people's minds on stuff like this, not laws.


Yeah but delegitimizing it does do something. This is a psychological thing and parents can fuck up their gay kid just by talking and being mean to them. Abortion is a physical thing though that can seriously harm or even kill someone if done improperly so it makes sense that a doctor should be the one to perform it.

They can hide but some won't want to test it and this will definitely bring the number down if anything.

Unfortunately, stuff like this swings both ways. Ban abortion, but people will still have abortions, they'll just go underground or women will resort to injuring themselves in order to miscarriage.

Ban shithole organizations like this, and they just go underground. Isn't that kinda how Marcus Bachmann's clinic does it? They don't directly come out and say their services are for trying to convert homosexuals, but that's what it's for.

Still, its progress, but preferably, I'd prefer not to resort to a law. People can't be forced to accept homosexuality. I want hate like this driven into the open, not hidden underground. Education is what changes people's minds on stuff like this, not laws.

The US is going through the same as every other succesful human society ever has:

1 Creation by strong commited men instilling solid rule of law
2 Corruption through centralized control of a larger and larger population combined with exponential inheritance until the great-great grandchildren of the most aggressive rule by default over a drastically enlarged population
3 Systematic failure concealed and compensated for by militarization and seizing foreign assets by force (war)
4 Dissent due to (perceived) immoral behaviour and ever-reducing opportunity for those outside the 'elite'
(i.e inheritees driving million dollar sports cars at 17 while working seniors go hungry)
5 Move toward police state system to maintain control and security leading to resentment and polarization of politics
6 Technological advantage in warfare eroded over time by ambitious imperial contenders
7 Ability to respond to change compromised by corrupted power system and entitlement of ruling families

and finally either
8a neutralisation into nostalgia
or
8b collapse into chaos

Marcus Aurelius said:
"Look back over the past, with its changing empires that rose and fell, and you can foresee the future, too."

If there ever was a society that could beat the system it probably is the US. But it better get its shit together pretty soon.

joke?

>> ^HaricotVert:

@21:40
Look at Marcus Bachmann give the princess wave.
Flaming.

@21:40

Look at Marcus Bachmann give the princess wave.

Flaming.

>> ^xxovercastxx:

>> ^ShakaUVM:
Heh, I taught kids TKD for a number of years. This isn't too out of line with what normally happens.
Sometimes I'll get on my knees and tell them to punch me in the chest, and they can't do it. I'm not moving. I'm not blocking. They just can't do it.

There were teenagers in my class; of higher rank than me, even; who fit that description and were no more dangerous in sparring than these little guys. It used to really annoy me that they kept passing their belt tests without developing any skills at all.


It's funny there could actually be a thread about this.

Even fifteen years later and 70 pounds heavier, I can still knock a fucking house down with my back-turning side-kick. But I remember when my one tough instructor Marcus used to yell at me to hit him while sparring, I could never hurt him. He was a veteran of a shitty childhood and even when he put his hands behind his back, I could never hit him hard enough in the chest, stomach, kidneys, etc. to even make him blink. Of course, I was wearing gloves, but still. It was always like one of those dreams when you just can't do the thing you want to do and it always made me feel like my arms were just a couple of limp sausages.

LOL
"Their bottom" does not equal Bachmann
(unless you're talking about Marcus--of course).