The notion that if it was deployed 3 months earlier it would have changed the outcome of the war is a bit short sighted. By 1944 things had changed significantly against the Luftwaffe. Of the many different types of problems, two are the most straightforward here, shortage of fuel and Goering's obsession with bombers.

At this stage of the war in 1944, fuel was scarce enough to force flight schools to cut their training times to less than half of what they received in 1942, receiving on average 111 hours of flight and of that only 20 hours in the combat aircraft that they were to fly, the rest would be in a trainer. To give a contemporary comparison, in the US you need an absolute bare minimum of 190 hours to earn a commercial pilot's license which is usually done in the same type of trainer the Germans used, THEN you start working on the plane your "really" going to fly. Training deficiencies were already showing in 1943, when during the first half of the year they experienced the same number of losses to accidents as they did to combat. So you can imagine that new and even experienced pilots, transitioning from the relatively lower speed of their prop driven planes to high speed jets, would have problems in tactical use and even accident avoidance. Even the Me-262 suffered from flameouts caused by aggressive use of the throttle, something that prop planes can manage much better, would otherwise cause the flameout that killed the test pilot Ziller.

Even if deployed in large numbers as a fighter-bomber, the probable use would be as a bomber. Goering was very much a part of the "cult of the offensive" in the air that meant holding to the old WW1 notion of "The bomber always gets through". Though to be fair, the technology in this aircraft might very well have helped proved him right, he pushed this notion at the cost of the defense. He refused committing more resources to the fighter wings, so while the Ho-229 might have been considered a "fighter-bomber", its use may have been predominantly focused on the bomber aspect. This is actually exactly what happened to the Me-262 in its earlier days, its capabilities as a fighter were ignored and preference as a bomber, preferred. Why does all this matter? Because at this point, Germany wasn't able to come close to stopping the bombers breaking through their lines. They needed the flow to stop since it was already disrupting their existing production to produce the "what if" fleet of Ho-229s. Goering proved that the bombers were getting through thanks to his belief that his would instead.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defence_of_the_Reich

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Galland (The later part, when he commanded the fighter force)

The mission generally dictates the engineering and design of a mechanical system. The Buran and the Shuttle are prime examples. The new X-37 resembles both in general shape because a reusable "space plane" needs certain specific physical characteristics.

The Mig-25 looks like the F-15 because both were originally designed as high altitude, high mach interceptors. The demand placed on the system by the overly large engines dictates the shape.

The basic principles of radar "stealth" dictate certain shapes to be effective. The Have-Blue shape was effective against high frequency radar through deflection. As materials technology advanced, e.g. radio absorbing materials, more aerodynamic shapes could be implemented and still retain "stealthy" characteristics, if not improve upon them.

All the F-22 vs Pak50, M1a1 Abrams vs T80 videos are funny. The 1 versus 1 advantages are fun to debate, but its the entire system that wins or loses the fight. In the same vein, its common knowledge that German armor in WW2 was vastly superior to American armor in every technical way. Similarly, German fighter aircraft were more maneuverable than the P-47s and P-51s that they fought. Unfortunately for the Luftwaffe, this superiority was not enough to defeat the allied system as it rolled east across Europe.

The term 5th generation does not define the aircraft themselves, but the system they belong to. If you read wikipedia, this does not mesh, but the wiki values maneuverability (which is inherently limited by the pilot), stealth features (limited by current materials and design), advanced avionics (what does this mean?) and multi-role capabilities (we have had this since the 1980's). The key to 5th generation fighters and its defining characteristic is the ability to integrate the new fighters with every other piece of war equipment in the theatre, not just in tactical use, but the total meshing of sensors and 2-way data links. Its the difference between a war of attrition and a war of "look first, shoot first".

The Russians appear to be building an excellent stealth fighter that looks sexy as hell. The Chinese are doing the same. What they both lack at the current time is the "backend" systems to make these new 5th generation-esque vehicles fully capable. The Pak50 and the J20 won't be sharing targeting data with their Navy or other ground forces anytime soon.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Bf_109
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_262
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-51_Mustang

My "flight experience" is solely with simulators so devalue my opinions accordingly.

I always found the 262 to be too fast for dogfighting. It was great for hitting bombers which were practically stationary targets, but it was very difficult to get a bead on another fighter before you shot past them.

The P-51 is quite fast and powerful, of course, but not especially maneuverable. USAF craft generally weren't as agile as RAF and Luftwaffe craft, IMO. Of course, by the time the Mustang saw heavy service, the US was on heavy offense. It was necessary to sacrifice some maneuverability in exchange for increased flight range for bombing runs and escorts.

As for the guy at the end stating that the Mustang is the WW2 plane everyone wants to fly, I say "fuck no." Give me a Spitfire XIV any day.

Awesome. Doubt there were only 8-9 planes in the Luftwaffe, but amazing sift nonetheless.

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I don't think anyone else got it...

>> ^direpickle:
>> ^MycroftHomlz:
Did anyone else have trouble with the sound?
Every time Candelaria talked there was this deafening clanging going on in the background.

I see what you did there.

>> ^MycroftHomlz:
Did anyone else have trouble with the sound?
Every time Candelaria talked there was this deafening clanging going on in the background.


I see what you did there.

In reply to this comment by MycroftHomlz:
*promote


Thank you for your promote

Without it I may not have had my first #1

Even if the events unfolded just the way Candelaria reported them, there's one small detail missing from this video: his enemies, the Bf 109s, were "Schulungslehrgang Elbe", a suicide ramming squad with pilots who barely knew how to keep the airplanes airborne and planes without radios, armor or armament except for a single MG131 with very limited ammo. The squad might have been led by Oberst Hajo Herrman, a bomber pilot and night fighter pilot - not a proper fighter pilot for single seater like the 109.

You'll notice how they are basically climbing straight up to the bombers. That's either inexperience or they had no time to set up for a proper attack. Normally, you need to gain the altitude advantage in a 109, so you can dominate the fight without resorting to turnfights. As for the Me 262s: they could have easily outclimbed the Mustang, despite his initial altitude advantage. They played his game instead of forcing theirs upon him.

The defensive formation described as the circle was practiced by Bf 110s when they were used as escort fighters, because they were not nearly maneuverable enough to engage Hurricanes or Spitfires. Thus they resorted to a defensive formation, rendering them utterly useless for bomber protection. If 109 pilots employ this "tactic", you know they are as green as they get.

By the way: the fight between Sonderkommando Elbe and the bombers took place over the "Steinhuder Meer", a lake not even 20km from where I'm writing these very words. A memorial can be found in Celle, about 30km from here.

A survivor of the unit, who didn't take part in this sortie though, is Dr. Fritz Marktscheffel, who was active every now and then on Luftwaffe-Forum.de while it was still online.

>> ^Engels:
Kudos where kudos are due...but the 109 was no match for the P-51D and it was very easy to outmanouver those ME-262s. They were very primitive jets with only speed in a straight line on their side.

Can't leave this uncommented, sorry.

The Bf 109K4, deployed at the time of the engagement, outclimbs and outaccelerates the P51D at almost any altitude and has a similar top speed at high altitude. If used correctly - only BnZ, no TnB -, it can dominate the Mustangs. G6, G10 and G14 could hold their own as well. Even though they were inferior, to say they were "no match" is oversimplifying and/or exaggerating. Most Luftwaffe fighters simply had a different flight profile than the others.

Same for the Me 262 - keep to BnZ and no piston engine fighter will stand a chance. Unfortunatly, it's a luxury you can't quite afford if you have to shoot down bombers as quickly as possible, because they are already over your territory. Mustangs could easily outturn them, but they couldn't catch them either unless they started with a significant altitude advantage.

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>> ^westy:
lol nice , but it did seem like the majority of the German piolots were complete noobs. be nice to here the story from the other side.


"Wir waren betrunken."

Tags for this video have been changed from 'ww2, junkers, ju 87, stuka, warbird, german, dive bomber' to 'ww2, junkers, ju 87, stuka, warbird, german, dive bomber, luftwaffe, ww2' - edited by rasch187

"Have you ever noticed that a lot of people are walking around these days using their 'feet'? Oh, you have? Well, have you noticed they wear clothes? Oh, you have and you think I'm an old crank whose long outlived his usefulness and will be known for nothing after his passing? Well, you little mound of mouse shit, have you ever walked into Buchenwald two weeks before VE day and seen the corpses stacked like firewood and be the first reporter to file a story on the atrocities there? You ever flown in a B-17 over Germany while the Luftwaffe was shooting the thing into flying Swiss cheese? Well, I have. So fuck you.

I'm Andy Rooney."

When the Luftwaffe of the New World Order darken our skies, no one will be able to say you didn't try your best. Keep trying, I do like a good political discussion.

In reply to this comment by blankfist:
It's difficult to keep up with the tag teaming efforts of NR and you, especially with the predominantly pro-Democrat support of the Sift. But, I'll keep trying... http://www.videosift.com/video/The-Difference-Between-Barack-Obama-and-Ron-Paul#comment-506190