from the scientific analysis of the event i've seen, the conclusion was not that jet fuel MELTED steel, but rather plane impact blew off fire-proofing and jet fuel'ed fires SOFTENED structural steel until it could no longer maintain its shape and collapsed.
to weaken/soften structural beams you don't need to melt or cut through them.

also i wouldn't trust all the eyewitness accounts to be scientifically accurate. when you live through an even such as this, you are not really in a state of mind to logically analyze and memorize everything you heard, felt and smelt. those white flashes could have been anything (yes, including thermite). that dripping molten aluminum(or thermite) could just as easily be a chunk of floor carpet melting and dripping or something else from a full office floor.

also didn't this book cover every possible scientific answer and question on this topic? http://www.amazon.com/National-Geographic-Inside-11-Commemorative/dp/B000FUF6QI

I was going to post this yesterday but then the sift was down so it's probably too late, but I had it saved so here it goes:

I don't think people should go out of their way to take offence to these kinds of videos. It's propaganda, and it would be interesting to some, but there is nothing new or particularly insightful here. If you don't fit the description of the video, you can probably safely move along. However, it describes many people.

>> ^shinyblurry:

Isn't there something inherently stupid about telling someone they're wrong about their beliefs because "no one knows"? Well then, how would you know dummy?

Some things are unknowable. People claiming the opposite are either liars or simply mistaken. Acknowledging (knowing) that this statement is true does not cause a contradiction.

>> ^shinyblurry:

I am a highly rational and logical person...

I don't mean to pick on this (at least not in a mean way), but if this is true you must have considered the massive amount of psychological delusions that humans make on a regular basis. People believe they have been visited by aliens. Even in the modern age many people in various countries believe they are following Gods on earth and believe they've witnessed miracles conducted by those man-gods. People (even presently) believe in witches, demonic possession, voodoo, astrology, homeopathy, dowsing, bigfoot, ghosts, etc, etc, etc.

Violent crime victims have been utterly surprised and ashamed when DNA evidence proved that their sworn and BELIEVED eyewitness accounts were misremembered and that people they were POSITIVE perpetrated the crimes against them indeed did not. Some people believe God tells them directly to kill others. Or that they themselves are the Messiah.

And generally speaking, the human mind has evolved to find patterns in noise: to interpret coincidence as cause and effect.

Given all of this, what is more likely: that all of these claims and beliefs are true? Or that just the ones we agree with are true? Or that perhaps few or none of these claims are true and they reveal the fragile nature of the human mind.

If we can accept the latter explanation, that we are limited machines with limited resources processing vast information in real time under great stress over decades of experiences... perhaps when we find ourselves seeing, remembering, or believing something unsupported by physical evidence, perhaps we should logically consider that we *should not* believe it.

Back to lurking...

evryone watched the 60minutes video right? The one where it was revealed they used a faulty Blowout preventer, faked the pressure (integrity) tests, and skipped safety procedures when they filled the hole w/ seawater.

I understand that it's not absolutely PROVEN they did those things, but we have eyewitness testimony that explains the situation with clarity.

Yet the corporate media seems to ignore ^that shit. I consider it fact. Am I wrong?

http://news.videosift.com/video/60-Minutes-Deepwater-Horizon-s-Blowout-Part-1
http://news.videosift.com/video/60-Minutes-Deepwater-Horizon-s-Blowout-Part-2

evryone watched the 60minutes video right? The one where it was revealed they used a faulty Blowout preventer, faked the pressure (integrity) tests, and skipped safety procedures when they filled the hole w/ seawater.

I understand that it's not absolutely PROVEN they did those things, but we have eyewitness testimony that explains the situation with clarity.

Yet the corporate media seems to ignore ^that shit. I consider it fact. Am I wrong?

http://news.videosift.com/video/60-Minutes-Deepwater-Horizon-s-Blowout-Part-1
http://news.videosift.com/video/60-Minutes-Deepwater-Horizon-s-Blowout-Part-2

alizarin is clearly a bipolar nut case because his recollection of events are off. Take this guy off the streets!

>> ^Raaagh:
>> ^alizarin:
This whole thing reminds me of a Harvard study I read about in college - The psychologist shows people a picture of two men having an argument in a subway train. One has a razor in his hand the other is unarmed. When people were shown the image briefly and then asked who was holding the razor 50% said it was the black man, when it was actually the white man. I failed that test then and it was sobering - you can be racist and not realize it or intend it. I think I'd pass it today but I don't think the average person would....

You read the study? And you participated?

>> ^alizarin:
This whole thing reminds me of a Harvard study I read about in college - The psychologist shows people a picture of two men having an argument in a subway train. One has a razor in his hand the other is unarmed. When people were shown the image briefly and then asked who was holding the razor 50% said it was the black man, when it was actually the white man. I failed that test then and it was sobering - you can be racist and not realize it or intend it. I think I'd pass it today but I don't think the average person would....


You read the study? And you participated?

>> ^alizarin:
This whole thing reminds me of a Harvard study I read about in college - The psychologist shows people a picture of two men having an argument in a subway train. One has a razor in his hand the other is unarmed. When people were shown the image briefly and then asked who was holding the razor 50% said it was the black man, when it was actually the white man. I failed that test then and it was sobering - you can be racist and not realize it or intend it. I think I'd pass it today but I don't think the average person would....


I've seen similar studies and I'm not calling them BS, but in the example you just gave, as the viewing duration goes to zero, you expect 50% of people to choose the black man if nobody was racist. That's just random guessing because you didn't have time to fully parse the image.

This whole thing reminds me of a Harvard study I read about in college - The psychologist shows people a picture of two men having an argument in a subway train. One has a razor in his hand the other is unarmed. When people were shown the image briefly and then asked who was holding the razor 50% said it was the black man, when it was actually the white man. I failed that test then and it was sobering - you can be racist and not realize it or intend it. I think I'd pass it today but I don't think the average person would....

Make up your mind. You said in your first post that "911 isn't mentioned in the list of offences he is responsible for. Why is that?"

Now you say Osama IS responsible. Complete 180 of your original statement, no? I've highlighted your contradiction for easy reading.

>> ^Fade:
>> ^HaricotVert:
I take it you didn't read the citations at the bottom of the article?
I also take it that you didn't realize that nowhere in the article does Maddox even mention Osama bin Laden, nor him being "responsible" for the attacks. All he is doing is attacking the horrible presentation of so-called "evidence" that people tout as proof that there is a giant conspiracy surrounding 9/11. Even I don't believe Osama was directly responsible/the actual mastermind, though he clearly was the most visible figure promoting/taking credit for it. Is that reason to go after him? Fuck no. We already have the purported Al Qaeda "mastermind," who is in New York awaiting trial. My point is that a show like this DOESN'T HELP.
Glenn Beck was the one that posted the $20 bill-folding conspiracy that mentions Osama. Thanks for playing.
I'm no sheep, but I sure as fuck don't think that Jesse Ventura is on the right track with this show. Specially so long as he is going to take eyewitness accounts as evidence that something was covered up.
>> ^Fade:
With regards to the two morons above and anyone else who cares to be flippant and disparaging of the views expressed in this show. i would like to remind you that you are forgetting that there isn't a prime suspect in the 911 attack. If you think Usama Bin Laden is then you might care to check out the FBI most wanted list re Usama. 911 isn't mentioned in the list of offences he is responsible for. Why is that? Why is the person who, according to the official story, was the mastermind, not wanted for this crime?
There is clearly a consiparacy around 911 and while I don't pretend to know the truth I sure as heck don't believe for a minute that the official story is the true story.


Um actually the FBI claims Usama is responsible. http://www.fbi.gov/congress/congress02/watson020602.htm
Thanks for playing indeed.

>> ^HaricotVert:
I take it you didn't read the citations at the bottom of the article?
I also take it that you didn't realize that nowhere in the article does Maddox even mention Osama bin Laden, nor him being "responsible" for the attacks. All he is doing is attacking the horrible presentation of so-called "evidence" that people tout as proof that there is a giant conspiracy surrounding 9/11. Even I don't believe Osama was directly responsible/the actual mastermind, though he clearly was the most visible figure promoting/taking credit for it. Is that reason to go after him? Fuck no. We already have the purported Al Qaeda "mastermind," who is in New York awaiting trial. My point is that a show like this DOESN'T HELP.
Glenn Beck was the one that posted the $20 bill-folding conspiracy that mentions Osama. Thanks for playing.
I'm no sheep, but I sure as fuck don't think that Jesse Ventura is on the right track with this show. Specially so long as he is going to take eyewitness accounts as evidence that something was covered up.
>> ^Fade:
With regards to the two morons above and anyone else who cares to be flippant and disparaging of the views expressed in this show. i would like to remind you that you are forgetting that there isn't a prime suspect in the 911 attack. If you think Usama Bin Laden is then you might care to check out the FBI most wanted list re Usama. 911 isn't mentioned in the list of offences he is responsible for. Why is that? Why is the person who, according to the official story, was the mastermind, not wanted for this crime?
There is clearly a consiparacy around 911 and while I don't pretend to know the truth I sure as heck don't believe for a minute that the official story is the true story.



Um actually the FBI claims Usama is responsible. http://www.fbi.gov/congress/congress02/watson020602.htm
Thanks for playing indeed.

I take it you didn't read the citations at the bottom of the article?

I also take it that you didn't realize that nowhere in the article does Maddox even mention Osama bin Laden, nor him being "responsible" for the attacks. All he is doing is attacking the horrible presentation of so-called "evidence" that people tout as proof that there is a giant conspiracy surrounding 9/11. Even *I* don't believe Osama was directly responsible/the actual mastermind, though he clearly was the most visible figure promoting/taking credit for it. Is that reason to go after him? Fuck no. We already have the purported Al Qaeda "mastermind," who is in New York awaiting trial. My point is that a show like this DOESN'T HELP.

Glenn Beck was the one that posted the $20 bill-folding conspiracy that mentions Osama. Thanks for playing.

I'm no sheep, but I sure as fuck don't think that Jesse Ventura is on the right track with this show. Specially so long as he is going to take eyewitness accounts as evidence that something was covered up.

>> ^Fade:
With regards to the two morons above and anyone else who cares to be flippant and disparaging of the views expressed in this show. i would like to remind you that you are forgetting that there isn't a prime suspect in the 911 attack. If you think Usama Bin Laden is then you might care to check out the FBI most wanted list re Usama. 911 isn't mentioned in the list of offences he is responsible for. Why is that? Why is the person who, according to the official story, was the mastermind, not wanted for this crime?
There is clearly a consiparacy around 911 and while I don't pretend to know the truth I sure as heck don't believe for a minute that the official story is the true story.

1,2,1,2,3,4
We accept her, one of us, we accept her, one of us!
Gooble gobble gooble gobble!
We accept her, we accept her!
We accept her, one of us, we accept her, one of us!
Gooble gobble gooble gobble!
We accept her, we accept her!

(We-we) we came, we saw, we kicked it's ass,
I was testing you - and you passed,
Dental plan! Lisa needs braces,
Be required to fart on a regular basis,
I'm gonna make him an offer he can't refuse,
Channel 13 - Eyewitness news!
Robocop, who is he?
Dead or alive you're coming with me.

In a hurry to be fed, beady eyes and big blue head.

I'm telling the truth Doc, you gotta believe me,
Why does everything I whip leave me?
My beautiful chocolate! Candy is dandy,
Fava beans and a nice Chianti,
You can count on Slippery Pete,
Suicide will be nice and neat!
I didn't build the Panama canal,
Open the pod bay doors please, HAL,

These aren't the droids you're looking for,
These aren't the droids we're looking for,
I am not a number I am a free man!
Rosebud.
To The Idiotmobile!
Right away Michael,
I-I-I-I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered.

We came, we saw, we kicked it's ass,
You don't understand I coulda had class,
Round and tasty on a bun,
Ooh Zippy look what you've done!
Finally! Cast off those lines!
No, I've been nervous lots of times,
Red Rum! What's the matter honey?
Just robbed Boss Hogg all of his money!

We came, saw, we kicked it's ass,
Writing checks your body can't cash,
I was elected to lead, not read,
I feel the need - the need for speed,
Watch out for snakes, a good man's loafer,
HQ - my hat looks like a muffin - over,
My god it's full of stars,
There was no driver in the car..

In the car (repeat)

Well you see I'm in hot pursuit!

There are only two things I love in this world - everybody and television!
#The Simpsons
#Run With Us!
Ugh - you must be shrooming,
Wait for me Moomin!
Cross live to meet the host of that show, Meat Boy,
I want to go to there.

We came, we saw, we kicked it's ass,
An oil tycoon - like a.. moustache,
Nice beaver! I just had it stuffed,
I don't give a shit, close enough,
Where's me washboard? I'll get me coat,
Y-y-y-you're gonna need a bigger boat,
What'd she say? I think she bought it,
Suck it monkeys! I'm goin' corporate!
C'mon let's take a drive! A drive?
Number 5 is alive!
It's only a laugh, no harm done,
Pickles, french fries, yum yum yum,
Bueller, Bueller, Bueller,
It's 2 degrees cooler,
The light that burns twice as bright burns half as long,
Six words in the whole song.

We-we-we accept her, one of us, we accept her, one of us!
Gooble gobble gooble gobble!
We accept her, we accept her!
You are number 6 5 4 3 2
I am not a number, I am a free man

We came, we saw, we kicked it's ass,
Give me my 20,000 in cash,
We came, we saw, we kicked it's ass,
I think you woke up the dead with that blast
We came, we saw, we kicked it's ass,
I think fast, I talk fast,
We came, we saw, we kicked it's ass,
Lois, this is not my Batman glass,

How many non-Jews were killed in the holocaust?

In reply to this comment by TheFreak:
>> ^Shepppard:
I don't see the point of denying the holocost, when there are still survivors OF the holocost, and documents, eyewitness accounts, films, and still photographs proving that millions of Jewish people were encamped, and killed, during WWII. True, you can argue that you don't care about the jews, you just don't believe it happened.. but I don't understand the reasoning for it. Any hard look at the facts would prove that it happened, and unless you really did have some ulterior motive you'd change your views.

Can I just get something off my chest, I know it's a bit off topic.

My grandmother had the most awesome photo albums. Beautiful old photos of family in Europe from a time when posing for a photo seemed to mean something. She showed me those albums every time I visited her and she carefully recounted the stories of every person in those photos. And it was impossible to go through the family album without pauses to note the people who died in concentration camps, survived concentration camps or in one case, actually escaped a concentration camp. We are not Jewish. At some point between my childhood and becoming an adult the holocaust became solely about the internment and death of Jews. How did this happen?

You might choose to deny the holocaust because you're anti-semitic...but you're also calling my Polish grandmother a liar. Even if you don't deny the holocaust you're doing an injustice to a large number people by equating it only to the Jewish community.

Gay Marriage: There are people out there who just don't want to shake things up; people who like the status quo and want to see marriage remain M/F only. Exactly what's going on in their heads, I can't say. I'd be interested to find out and I know that won't happen if I scream obscenities at them before they have the chance to explain it.

Illegal Immigration: First, the omission of "illegal" in my first post was just an oversight on my part. I really don't see why anyone would support illegal immigration, honestly. I think the claim that some people do is more likely a distortion. People, generally liberals, argue for better treatment of illegals and against the assload of money we spend trying, and failing, to stop them at the border. Wingnuts then point at those people and claim that they're in favor of illegal immigration. That one feels like runaway douchebaggery to me.

The Holocaust: This guy is labeled an antisemite for his beliefs about the Holocaust. If you're looking for "the point" to denying the Holocaust, then you're way off the mark. It's not as if there is a "point" to believing in the Holocaust, either. That's what you and I, presumably, believe because that is what the evidence presented to us suggests. Some people have interpreted the evidence differently or have been exposed to different evidence. I think most of those people are probably nuts but it's a complete logical fallacy to jump to antisemitism from there.

War on Terror: You've made my point for me here. Everyone I know who is against the war fully supports the troops. We want them home and safe rather than risking their lives to protect us from absolutely nothing. However, anyone who was against the war during the Bush administration was labeled as anti-American, unpatriotic, an appeaser or accused of hating the troops. It's a bullshit accusation intended to shut you up or drown you out and that's it.
---
It seems like you may have mistaken my list of examples for my personal positions and that's not the case, so I can't really make any arguments for these things. The only argument I'm making is that you shouldn't assume your preconceived notions are true and shut out those opposing viewpoints as a result. Have your preconceptions if you must, but give the person the chance to prove you wrong.

>> ^Shepppard:
What possible reason other then either being a bible thumper or homophobe is there for objecting gay marriage?
I'm asking legitimately. Two people love each other, they want the same treatment as everybody else. Unless it's wrong in the eyes of the lord, or you don't like seeing a man holding another mans hand, I see no actual valid reason for it.
Now, Beck says he opposes Illegal immigration, big difference to just immigration. I can understand not wanting illegal immigrants, even though they too are just a group of people looking for a better life, but the ones who come over legally, apply for a visa or citizenship.. if they take a job away from an American, then they deserve the spot more then the American, they were more qualified.
I don't see the point of denying the holocost, when there are still survivors OF the holocost, and documents, eyewitness accounts, films, and still photographs proving that millions of Jewish people were encamped, and killed, during WWII. True, you can argue that you don't care about the jews, you just don't believe it happened.. but I don't understand the reasoning for it. Any hard look at the facts would prove that it happened, and unless you really did have some ulterior motive you'd change your views.
Of course you can oppose policies without being a racist, anybody claiming you ARE one is a loon. Obama is NOT the first ever president of the u.s.a. and as far as I know, for each and every president before him, there was at least one group of people that thought "Hey..we don't like you, or your policies, BOO!"
You can oppose the war on terror without hating the troops makes no sense to me. Most people who are against the war seem to be against it because they feel that American blood shouldn't be shed in a senseless war, and want to bring them HOME. I don't understand your point there at all.
Abortion, I agree with you on. My mother is adopted, and while I'm still pro-choice, she is against abortions. If whoever gave birth to her decided on having an abortion instead, she would never have been here.
Look, I'll stop picking apart your post now, because I know the point was actually to promote having an open mind, but your examples given are slightly..flawed. By all means, if you have means to correct me, do so, I will gladly look at all the evidence given to me. But honestly..
some things, some pre-concieved notions, they're honestly true.

>> ^Shepppard:
I don't see the point of denying the holocost, when there are still survivors OF the holocost, and documents, eyewitness accounts, films, and still photographs proving that millions of Jewish people were encamped, and killed, during WWII. True, you can argue that you don't care about the jews, you just don't believe it happened.. but I don't understand the reasoning for it. Any hard look at the facts would prove that it happened, and unless you really did have some ulterior motive you'd change your views.

Can I just get something off my chest, I know it's a bit off topic.

My grandmother had the most awesome photo albums. Beautiful old photos of family in Europe from a time when posing for a photo seemed to mean something. She showed me those albums every time I visited her and she carefully recounted the stories of every person in those photos. And it was impossible to go through the family album without pauses to note the people who died in concentration camps, survived concentration camps or in one case, actually escaped a concentration camp. We are not Jewish. At some point between my childhood and becoming an adult the holocaust became solely about the internment and death of Jews. How did this happen?

You might choose to deny the holocaust because you're anti-semitic...but you're also calling my Polish grandmother a liar. Even if you don't deny the holocaust you're doing an injustice to a large number people by equating it only to the Jewish community.