@lantern53 Where were Bush's apologies? Didn't he say that history would be the judge hence no need to apologise? Also, the government is not some mythical separate entity from 'the people". America is the bastion of democracy, don't you agree? How are we to separate the actions of its people from its government? Democracy, especially one as purportedly strong as your own, implies consent if not endorsement.

@bcglorf The first point just restates what I said which I think we both agree on.

The second point about Pakistan has been over simplified to the point of misdirection. There are 3 domains of power in Pakistan; the ISI (Intelligence), the military and the government. The ISI largely controls the madrassahs and although there is a huge amount of violence in Pakistan at the moment (something you won't hear about in Western news broadcasts) the main area of contention there is about Kashmir. It has little if nothing to do with the USA. In fact the USA aids the Pakistan cause by their alliance with Pakistan in an attempt to oppose Chinese backed India. Further, charities does not automatically mean state-based endorsement. Its quite a stretch.

Plus, I can name many muslim nations that did not have spontaneous celebrations. Afghanistan for one. Sure maybe a few in Kabul got wind of it but as a nation they are still pretty much in the dark about the whole thing. Some more, Turkey (secular yes but muslim by demos), Azer Baijan, Sudan, Bosnia-Herzogoznia, Burkina Faso, Chad, Comoros, Gambia, Kosovo, Kyrgyzstan, Mauritania, Somalia.... I'm sure there were lots of other countries that had spontaneous displays of celebration after 9/11... France, Cuba, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Venuzuela, Russia, Guatemala, Vietnam, Philippines, Laos, Cambodia, China, India, Japan, Mexico, Serbia.

To paint any display of celebration with the brush of enemy eliminates any nuance or desire for understanding complex issues for the sake of post hoc raltionalisation of ones own immediate intuitions. Does the Westboro Baptist Church mean that America is no better than any of the Muslim nations you list? Of course not. To say as much as absurd. To see brown people doing the same is merely convenient.

The third point you seem to provide your own refutation. Drones etc do indeed fuel Al Queda. You admit as much. If the AL Qaeda aim is indeed about Pakistan and India (which I think you may be very confused about Al-Qaeda and its Pakistani brethren, two very separate entities with almost no commonality bar what we grant them). Al Qaeda in the Bin Laden days cared nothing for Pakistan. It was almost entirely focused on Saudi Arabia and only went to Afghanistan as a sort of Boys Own adventure club. They were the laughing stock of the Mujahaddin.

Hey, they made a movie about Senator Guillory's life and he's played by Cuba Gooding Jr.. Here's an exclusive clip:
http://youtu.be/mBS0OWGUidc

No, No no no no no. You are not going to sit there and tell me that Kennedy was a good guy. That murderous mother fucker who waged a Terrorist War on Cuba before the Cuban missile crisis. And is responsible for the genocidal chemical war against South Vietnam.

Not gonna happen, that man was a piece of shit, and he doesn't get any credit for saying anything progressive.

My personal 5-yr-plan for expatriation began yesterday. If I have to live in any country, I have 3 criteria:

Must be an active volcano within 20 miles and surrounded by ocean
Must be able to dive for shellfish and angle for salt-water fishes from the shore
Tourism economy with the only Americans there visitors or fellow expatriates with the bulk of tourists coming from Europe and other.

I'm shooting for the south-eastern Windward isles, where I can with an EU passport, travel freely to Cuba. Not to mention Jamaica and South America.

It's not so much the fucked government, they're fucked everywhere. It's all about quality of life-Good, fresh, UNTAINTED food, great music, and NO FUCKING AMERICANS!

I used to love my country before the machine started breeding idiots, now all that's left here are ineffectual robots who talk a lot, saying nothing and doing less. As far as I'm concerned, y'all can have this motherfucker....Oh, and I'm gonna join the Freemasons when I get there as well, 'cause Freemasonry KICKS ASS!

I found Fentiman's Cola.

Didn't taste anything like CocaCola or Pepsi. Actually tastes more like those cola bottle sweets. I wonder what its like in a Cuba Libre...

There's one thing we're doing wrong to North Korea, which is to impose sanctions.

It doesn't work, like it hasn't worked for decades against Cuba, and many other countries we have antagonized. Sanctions give their rulers a way of blaming any problem on the outside world, using nationalistic pride to rally public support for their cause. Sanctions also don't affect the rulers or the rich elite, who can always smuggle whatever they want for the right price.

Sanctions are acts of war. Exactly what North Korea needs to close itself up, militarily and otherwise, screwing poor north koreans over in the process.

I gave you examples, you want more or do you want to do your own research? The American public was scared of Saddam in 1990 and they were scared again in 2003. In both cases there was NOTHING to be scared of yet you had people training and buying guns just in case he came HERE to the United States.

Hell you don't even have to look hard, remember the Red Scare when everyone was terrified that the communists are going to choke us in the night? We're a scaredy cat nation, because the propaganda is geared towards scaring us. You can't deny the effect of propaganda on people, it turned us from not wanting to get into World War 1 to a German hating crazy warmongering public. We couldn't even play Bach here because we hated Germany so much. Also the Yellow Journalism that got us into the Spanish American War, there are still people terrified that Cuba is about to strangle us...SERIOUSLY FUCKING CUBA!

Goebbels, Hitlers propaganda minister, based HIS propaganda on the United States' model. This shit is all documented, and you just sit there "Nope not true" you don't have any evidence though.

Chomsky talks about getting letters from people constantly about how dare he defend (as if he does) the helpless people that might kill us at any moment.

LOOK Right here at home, we're terrified of black people, so lets have a War on drugs to make sure if you're a 14 year old black kid with a joint in your pocket you go to jail for a LONG AS TIME. Just look at any prison, you'll see the effect it had.

Just provide some evidence for what you claim...it's not hard, till then you can't tell me I'm drinking kool aid because I actually work at gaining knowledge.

I'm serious too, people looking at this country from the outside are just astonished by how we look at things. I mean people in this country believe that Iraq was seconds away from destroying us, that Cuba is still a sinister threat. They arm themselves and put on fatigues and get ready for Iraqis to come into their town. The propaganda is mindblowing, and then some great president like Reagan or a bunch of High School kids with rifles in the hills are gonna snatch us away from whatever demon is about to destroy us all.

It's incredible how successful propaganda is and we look down on the German people for allowing the Nazis to run roughshod over everyone. We're the most powerful nation in the world and we're terrified of everyone, it's insane.

To say to these terrified people that guns are available for you, whatever guns you want. It's just insane.

You're assuming a reasonable person. A suicide bomber is not reasonable. Maybe this person's family is already dead to american drone attacks (or whatnot), which set him on the path of wanting to destroy america. My point is, you can't assume these kinds of people act in a reasonable way, or that they even know that everyone has weapons. Avoiding nuclear disaster from the cold war was only done because people were smart and cautious; if it had been George W instead of JFK at the cuba crisis, would the same thing have happened? Maybe, maybe not - it doesn't take much for it all to come crashing down. What if it had been Saddam Hussein instead of JFK?

100% correct. Because Obama tyranny succeeding has nothing to do with American Exceptionalism, private property rights, individual liberty and the Constitution. Barry shouldn't feel singled out; I hope China, Cuba, North Korea and other illicit regimes fail too.

Funny story. My sister and her boyfriend went down to cuba for a week long vacation at one of their resorts. The resort was kind of a bust, but they met a dog along the beach that was scavenging crab shells and whatnot, anything she could eat. So, after it was there on the second day, they decided to smuggle her into their room.

For the week, they fed and took care of the dog, named it Lucy, and decided they wanted to take her back with them. So, they tried to add the dog to the cargo list for their plane, but found they couldn't because she hadn't had her shots.

They then found a lady who takes care of a lot of stray dogs to take care of Lucy until they could come back down and get her. Turns out, the lady was also friends with a Vet who could spay her and give her the shots she needed while she was there.

So, a week goes by, and my sister flies back down to Cuba to get Lucy. The return flight was the day after she got there, so the lady taking care of Lucy allowed my sister to stay for the night. She gave my sister a room and put Lucy in it, and a second little puppy that needed to be separated from the rest named Tommy.

All night, all Tommy wanted to do was play with my sister and Lucy, and was heartbroken when she took Lucy to the airport the next day. Turns out, the weather was too hot for animals to be in the cargo bay that day, and they wouldn't allow my sister to take Lucy that day. The lady taking care of Lucy said "I'll get you your dog, but only if you promise to take Tommy too"

My sister agreed, and reluctantly got on the plane, once again sans dog.

Half a month goes by, and finally we hear from this lady saying that a stewardess on Air Canada agreed to take the dogs with her to Montreal for free.

Long story short, my sister now has two Cuban dogs.

>> ^Boise_Lib:


Wonder what would happen if you tried to get them back?


We've got a little resort in Cuba. Have your people meet us there to sort out the specifics.

>> ^Lendl:

Back in the early 90s when Quebec wanted to separate, there was a political comic in the local paper entitled: "7 days of freedom". It had 2 little men dressed in winter clothing, one with a maple leaf on his chest and one with a fleur de lys his chest. Panel 1, the little Quebecker was jumping for joy. As the days progressed he had less and less clothing. On the seventh day he was freezing in his underwear and knocking on Canada's door.
Still remember that 20 years later when I hear stories like this.


I would've liked it if Quebec decided to leave Canada because it would be like gaining another state. The US would simply absorb it, it would become like Cuba in the 50s before the revolution. What could they do about it? NOTHING because they're weak and exploitable. Quebec is full of morons.

>> ^Kofi:

Was Pearl Harbour very selective and targeted?
Plus, 30,000 tonnes?!?!?!?! Think about it for a moment. Tonnes, pounds, whatever.


Pearl Harbor is an interesting case. It's on one hand a horrific war crime, and on the other well within the standards in which the US operates. Hawaii was a colony which we stole and placed military bases there to control the pacific. Bombers were being produced and put there with the expressed intention, literally this was put in the paper, to bomb the shit out of Japan.

It would be like China setting up on Cuba and sending planes there that they brag can bomb all US cities on the eastern sea board. We'd probably go insane and start nuking everything if that happened.

Cuba Gooding nailed the accent.