quantumushroom, your point seems like it's almost akin to 'they hate us because we're free' - I understand it's a complex situation but the reality of it can be summed up by answering this simple question: 'why are people firing rockets at Israel?'

The administration of Israel has pushed living conditions in the Palestinian 'areas' below anything you or me would class as acceptable for ourselves.

For years, long before this attack, citizens of Palestine could not get health care, they cannot go to school, they cannot drive anywhere due to roadblocks. New settlements are built on Palestinian land, the people have no choice but to leave their homes and become refugees.

There is a giant wall around their area of the country, 'protecting' Israel from them.

It's fucking apartheid and now their making the killing stroke. How much more land do you think Israel will 'settle' on after everyone in Palestine escapes to Egypt or is killed?

Sadly, even with all the protests, they've basically been given carte blanch by the American media to do whatever they want.

I assume that post up there ^ ^ ^ is some clever parody. It points out the irony of the heirs to Nazi philosophy (though most of them did hang at Nuremberg).. ok well the flip coin "heirs" of Nazism... doing their damnedest.

No one finds it ironic that the IDF is reigning terror and bombs and sonic booms on a people diminished to the worst refugee camp / apartheid village in decades..

Essentially, if I put you in jail (rightly, wrongly, who cares).. so I put you in jail for 10 years and rape you and beat you daily. Then you still persist to throw rocks at the jailer, then they deserve more crushing????

It really is like a boxer and a cripple in a wheel chair going at it over the last twinkee.

It is stupid and the US should quit sending billions of dollars to Israel especially the weapons and military craft we gift to them.

THe US is responsible for worsening the lives of those live under apartheid. I mean even the Mediterranean is blockaded. Talk about messed up. It's bad enough they are building those crazy walls to steal land but they also refuse to allow any relief or trade.

It really is no different then US treatment of Native Americans.

>> ^rougy:
Well, the hell with you, then.
I can criticize China's treatment of Tibet and nobody says I hate Chinese.
I could criticize South Africa's apartheid and nobody says I hate South Africans.
I criticize Israel for being a major reason why the Palestinians behave like they do, and now I'm a racist.
Fuck you.


Slow down there with your outrage.

When your first post stated:

I hate to say it, but there is no way in hell to discusss Palestinian terrorism without addressing the odious conditions that they are forced to live in by Israel.

You can't treat people like animals for three or four generations and expect them to behave in any other manner.


I AGREED with you stating:

Agreed, but you need to go one step further. There is no way in hell to discuss the plight of the Palestinian people without addressing the policies of the surrounding Arab nations for the last 4 generations as well.


I never denied that Israeli policy is a major reason Palestinians behave like they do, I agreed that was right. I just went on to say there was even more to it than just Israel's policies, to which you replied:

Yeah, they stole that land fair and square, right?


I called that remark EITHER ignorant or racist, not both. To simply accuse Israel of stealing land from the Palestinians requires ignorance of the regions history OR a willingness to ignore the details of history and flatly accuse Israel anyways which I consider to be racist.

Your main point on Israel policy at best antagonizing the situation is right and I agree on it, I just went a step further in pointing out there is much more blame to go around as well.

Well, the hell with you, then.

I can criticize China's treatment of Tibet and nobody says I hate Chinese.

I could criticize South Africa's apartheid and nobody says I hate South Africans.

I criticize Israel for being a major reason why the Palestinians behave like they do, and now I'm a racist.

Fuck you.

"Can someone explain to me the difference between S-Africa under the Apartheid, and Israel today, please? I can't see it."

According to a S-African minister (can't remember which one) who has spent some time in the area, he says it's far, far worse in Israel.

I do know a few people that have gone there on humanitarian missions, and their descriptions are far worse than what you hear or read in the press.

Hollywoodbob, by your logic, India should never have followed Gandhi and seceded from the British Empire, since it lead to the Kashmir tensions and nuclear standoff between Pakistan and India. How far back should you go in your time machine to prevent present or past tensions? the big bang?

I submit that if you have something nice, someone else will want to take it, and just giving it away is not a solution, since it never "balances out" anything, as long as you still have something to take. Either be strong enough to defend your stuff personally, or strong enough to instate rule of law collectively. Or starve.

If that's Nietzsche's opinion as well, maybe I should read up on the fellow.

[edit]

*ahem*

"Fellow ANC member Wolfie Kadesh explains the bombing campaign led by Mandela: "When we knew that we going to start on 16 December 1961, to blast the symbolic places of apartheid, like pass offices, native magistrates courts, and things like that ... post offices and ... the government offices. But we were to do it in such a way that nobody would be hurt, nobody would get killed." Mandela said of Wolfie: "His knowledge of warfare and his first hand battle experience were extremely helpful to me."

>> ^Napalm:
>> ^dannym3141:
How can you mistake this for australian?

Because only Australians, New Zealanders and apparently South Africans can tell their accents apart?


Wooo, OK at the risk of this discussion becoming a tad pedantic, I need to clarify this misunderstanding. I think the reason that the common "white" South African accent (because there is a difference in accents between groups in SA, albeit now slowly disappearing after Apartheid) gets mistaken for Australian is because it is not widely recognised. People hear it, think, "Blimey, what's that...its not any of the British ones, not Irish, not American or Canadian....IT MUST BE AUSTRALIAN!" If you actually listen to the accents there is DEFINITELY a big distinction. American & Canadian is a lot more related to each other, same goes for Aussie and Kiwi.
The South African accent (and by extension, Zimbabwean accent) is fairly unique. It's also known by actors as the hardest accent do to correctly. Leonardo diCaprio did a fairly decent job with his in "Blood Diamond".


>> ^Payback:
Server sounds British-Indian...


The server speaks with a fairly standard black South African accent (again, just explaining that there are accent differences between South Africa's groups...I'm not a racist! )

I'm not from the USA, UK, Iraq, Syria or Iran, quite glad i'm not. I know how bad the situation is in Iran, my brother is married to an Iranian woman.

However, Iran having nuclear weapons does not equal them actually using them. If Iran nuked Israel, Iran would effectively be wiped off the map, I can assure you that the Iranian goverment and clergy are fully aware of this. They 're crazy, but not that crazy.

Condemning Israel in my book is a good thing, their behavior towards Palestinians is horrible, I know quite a few people that have witnessed it first hand. Some of the stories almost made me sick to my stomach, 99% of the stuff that happens there doesn't get any media coverage. Also the South African intelligence minister recently said that the situation was far worse than apartheid was in S-Africa, he added that though Israel wasn't a fascist state, their actions against Palestine were.

It's this American attitude that they are always right, they have the right to boss everyone around, they are the ones with the right opinions, they have the right to have all kinds of bombs, they can sell someone WMD's and then invade the same country a few years later because "they might have WMD's", the insanity of them saying "he gassed his own people" when they themselves gassed a whole country a few decades back and have yet to apolagize for it.

I don't want Iran to have nuclear weapons, but I don't want any of the other nations to have them either. What's infuriating is the US attitude that they can dictate who has them. How do you think Iranians feel when they see McCain singing "bomb bomb bomb iran"?

Capische?

Tags for this video have been changed from 'America, speech, sacrifice, aparthied, nuclear weapons, Pink Floyd' to 'America, speech, sacrifice, apartheid, nuclear weapons, Pink Floyd' - edited by oohahh

BARACK OBAMA BERLIN SPEECH: 'A WORLD THAT STANDS AS ONE'
THURS JULY 24 2008 12:58:02

Thank you to the citizens of Berlin and to the people of Germany. Let me thank Chancellor Merkel and Foreign Minister Steinmeier for welcoming me earlier today. Thank you Mayor Wowereit, the Berlin Senate, the police, and most of all thank you for this welcome.

I come to Berlin as so many of my countrymen have come before. Tonight, I speak to you not as a candidate for President, but as a citizen -- a proud citizen of the United States, and a fellow citizen of the world.

I know that I don't look like the Americans who've previously spoken in this great city. The journey that led me here is improbable. My mother was born in the heartland of America, but my father grew up herding goats in Kenya. His father -- my grandfather -- was a cook, a domestic servant to the British.

At the height of the Cold War, my father decided, like so many others in the forgotten corners of the world, that his yearning -- his dream -- required the freedom and opportunity promised by the West. And so he wrote letter after letter to universities all across America until somebody, somewhere answered his prayer for a better life.

That is why I'm here. And you are here because you too know that yearning. This city, of all cities, knows the dream of freedom. And you know that the only reason we stand here tonight is because men and women from both of our nations came together to work, and struggle, and sacrifice for that better life.

Ours is a partnership that truly began sixty years ago this summer, on the day when the first American plane touched down at Templehof.

On that day, much of this continent still lay in ruin.Ê The rubble of this city had yet to be built into a wall. The Soviet shadow had swept across Eastern Europe, while in the West, America, Britain, and France took stock of their losses, and pondered how the world might be remade.

This is where the two sides met.Ê And on the twenty-fourth of June, 1948, the Communists chose to blockade the western part of the city. They cut off food and supplies to more than two million Germans in an effort to extinguish the last flame of freedom in Berlin.

The size of our forces was no match for the much larger Soviet Army. And yet retreat would have allowed Communism to march across Europe. Where the last war had ended, another World War could have easily begun. All that stood in the way was Berlin.

Ê And that's when the airlift began -- when the largest and most unlikely rescue in history brought food and hope to the people of this city.

The odds were stacked against success. In the winter, a heavy fog filled the sky above, and many planes were forced to turn back without dropping off the needed supplies. The streets where we stand were filled with hungry families who had no comfort from the cold.Ê

But in the darkest hours, the people of Berlin kept the flame of hope burning. The people of Berlin refused to give up. And on one fall day, hundreds of thousands of Berliners came here, to the Tiergarten, and heard the city's mayor implore the world not to give up on freedom. "There is only one possibility," he said. "For us to stand together united until this battle is wonÉThe people of Berlin have spoken. We have done our duty, and we will keep on doing our duty. People of the world: now do your dutyÉPeople of the world, look at Berlin!"

People of the world -- look at Berlin!

Look at Berlin, where Germans and Americans learned to work together and trust each other less than three years after facing each other on the field of battle.

Look at Berlin, where the determination of a people met the generosity of the Marshall Plan and created a German miracle; where a victory over tyranny gave rise to NATO, the greatest alliance ever formed to defend our common security.Ê

Look at Berlin, where the bullet holes in the buildings and the somber stones and pillars near the Brandenburg Gate insist that we never forget our common humanity.Ê

People of the world -- look at Berlin, where a wall came down, a continent came together, and history proved that there is no challenge too great for a world that stands as one.ÊÊ

Sixty years after the airlift, we are called upon again. History has led us to a new crossroad, with new promise and new peril. When you, the German people, tore down that wall -- a wall that divided East and West; freedom and tyranny; fear and hope -- walls came tumbling down around the world. From Kiev to Cape Town, prison camps were closed, and the doors of democracy were opened. Markets opened too, and the spread of information and technology reduced barriers to opportunity and prosperity. While the 20th century taught us that we share a common destiny, the 21st has revealed a world more intertwined than at any time in human history.

The fall of the Berlin Wall brought new hope. But that very closeness has given rise to new dangers -- dangers that cannot be contained within the borders of a country or by the distance of an ocean.ÊÊ

The terrorists of September 11th plotted in Hamburg and trained in Kandahar and Karachi before killing thousands from all over the globe on American soil.Ê

As we speak, cars in Boston and factories in Beijing are melting the ice caps in the Arctic, shrinking coastlines in the Atlantic, and bringing drought to farms from Kansas to Kenya.

Poorly secured nuclear material in the former Soviet Union, or secrets from a scientist in Pakistan could help build a bomb that detonates in Paris. The poppies in Afghanistan become the heroin in Berlin. The poverty and violence in Somalia breeds the terror of tomorrow. The genocide in Darfur shames the conscience of us all.

In this new world, such dangerous currents have swept along faster than our efforts to contain them. That is why we cannot afford to be divided. No one nation, no matter how large or powerful, can defeat such challenges alone. None of us can deny these threats, or escape responsibility in meeting them. Yet, in the absence of Soviet tanks and a terrible wall, it has become easy to forget this truth. And if we're honest with each other, we know that sometimes, on both sides of the Atlantic, we have drifted apart, and forgotten our shared destiny.

In Europe, the view that America is part of what has gone wrong in our world, rather than a force to help make it right, has become all too common. In America, there are voices that deride and deny the importance of Europe's role in our security and our future. Both views miss the truth -- that Europeans today are bearing new burdens and taking more responsibility in critical parts of the world; and that just as American bases built in the last century still help to defend the security of this continent, so does our country still sacrifice greatly for freedom around the globe.

Yes, there have been differences between America and Europe. No doubt, there will be differences in the future. But the burdens of global citizenship continue to bind us together. A change of leadership in Washington will not lift this burden. In this new century, Americans and Europeans alike will be required to do more -- not less. Partnership and cooperation among nations is not a choice; it is the one way, the only way, to protect our common security and advance our common humanity.Ê

That is why the greatest danger of all is to allow new walls to divide us from one another. The walls between old allies on either side of the Atlantic cannot stand. The walls between the countries with the most and those with the least cannot stand. The walls between races and tribes; natives and immigrants; Christian and Muslim and Jew cannot stand. These now are the walls we must tear down.Ê

We know they have fallen before. After centuries of strife, the people of Europe have formed a Union of promise and prosperity. Here, at the base of a column built to mark victory in war, we meet in the center of a Europe at peace. Not only have walls come down in Berlin, but they have come down in Belfast, where Protestant and Catholic found a way to live together; in the Balkans, where our Atlantic alliance ended wars and brought savage war criminals to justice; and in South Africa, where the struggle of a courageous people defeated apartheid. Ê So history reminds us that walls can be torn down. But the task is never easy. True partnership and true progress requires constant work and sustained sacrifice. They require sharing the burdens of development and diplomacy; of progress and peace. They require allies who will listen to each other, learn from each other and, most of all, trust each other.Ê

That is why America cannot turn inward. That is why Europe cannot turn inward. America has no better partner than Europe. Now is the time to build new bridges across the globe as strong as the one that bound us across the Atlantic. Now is the time to join together, through constant cooperation, strong institutions, shared sacrifice, and a global commitment to progress, to meet the challenges of the 21st century. It was this spirit that led airlift planes to appear in the sky above our heads, and people to assemble where we stand today. And this is the moment when our nations -- and all nations -- must summon that spirit anew.

This is the moment when we must defeat terror and dry up the well of extremism that supports it. This threat is real and we cannot shrink from our responsibility to combat it. If we could create NATO to face down the Soviet Union, we can join in a new and global partnership to dismantle the networks that have struck in Madrid and Amman; in London and Bali; in Washington and New York. If we could win a battle of ideas against the communists, we can stand with the vast majority of Muslims who reject the extremism that leads to hate instead of hope.

This is the moment when we must renew our resolve to rout the terrorists who threaten our security in Afghanistan, and the traffickers who sell drugs on your streets. No one welcomes war. I recognize the enormous difficulties in Afghanistan. But my country and yours have a stake in seeing that NATO's first mission beyond Europe's borders is a success. For the people of Afghanistan, and for our shared security, the work must be done. America cannot do this alone. The Afghan people need our troops and your troops; our support and your support to defeat the Taliban and al Qaeda, to develop their economy, and to help them rebuild their nation. We have too much at stake to turn back now.

This is the moment when we must renew the goal of a world without nuclear weapons. The two superpowers that faced each other across the wall of this city came too close too often to destroying all we have built and all that we love. With that wall gone, we need not stand idly by and watch the further spread of the deadly atom. It is time to secure all loose nuclear materials; to stop the spread of nuclear weapons; and to reduce the arsenals from another era. This is the moment to begin the work of seeking the peace of a world without nuclear weapons.

This is the moment when every nation in Europe must have the chance to choose its own tomorrow free from the shadows of yesterday. In this century, we need a strong European Union that deepens the security and prosperity of this continent, while extending a hand abroad. In this century -- in this city of all cities -- we must reject the Cold War mind-set of the past, and resolve to work with Russia when we can, to stand up for our values when we must, and to seek a partnership that extends across this entire continent.

This is the moment when we must build on the wealth that open markets have created, and share its benefits more equitably. Trade has been a cornerstone of our growth and global development. But we will not be able to sustain this growth if it favors the few, and not the many. Together, we must forge trade that truly rewards the work that creates wealth, with meaningful protections for our people and our planet. This is the moment for trade that is free and fair for all.

This is the moment we must help answer the call for a new dawn in the Middle East. My country must stand with yours and with Europe in sending a direct message to Iran that it must abandon its nuclear ambitions. We must support the Lebanese who have marched and bled for democracy, and the Israelis and Palestinians who seek a secure and lasting peace. And despite past differences, this is the moment when the world should support the millions of Iraqis who seek to rebuild their lives, even as we pass responsibility to the Iraqi government and finally bring this war to a close.

This is the moment when we must come together to save this planet. Let us resolve that we will not leave our children a world where the oceans rise and famine spreads and terrible storms devastate our lands. Let us resolve that all nations -- including my own -- will act with the same seriousness of purpose as has your nation, and reduce the carbon we send into our atmosphere. This is the moment to give our children back their future. This is the moment to stand as one.

And this is the moment when we must give hope to those left behind in a globalized world. We must remember that the Cold War born in this city was not a battle for land or treasure. Sixty years ago, the planes that flew over Berlin did not drop bombs; instead they delivered food, and coal, and candy to grateful children. And in that show of solidarity, those pilots won more than a military victory. They won hearts and minds; love and loyalty and trust -- not just from the people in this city, but from all those who heard the story of what they did here.

Now the world will watch and remember what we do here -- what we do with this moment. Will we extend our hand to the people in the forgotten corners of this world who yearn for lives marked by dignity and opportunity; by security and justice? Will we lift the child in Bangladesh from poverty, shelter the refugee in Chad, and banish the scourge of AIDS in our time?

Will we stand for the human rights of the dissident in Burma, the blogger in Iran, or the voter in Zimbabwe? Will we give meaning to the words "never again" in Darfur?Ê

Will we acknowledge that there is no more powerful example than the one each of our nations projects to the world? Will we reject torture and stand for the rule of law? Will we welcome immigrants from different lands, and shun discrimination against those who don't look like us or worship like we do, and keep the promise of equality and opportunity for all of our people?

People of Berlin -- people of the world -- this is our moment. This is our time.Ê

I know my country has not perfected itself. At times, we've struggled to keep the promise of liberty and equality for all of our people. We've made our share of mistakes, and there are times when our actions around the world have not lived up to our best intentions.

But I also know how much I love America. I know that for more than two centuries, we have strived -- at great cost and great sacrifice -- to form a more perfect union; to seek, with other nations, a more hopeful world. Our allegiance has never been to any particular tribe or kingdom -- indeed, every language is spoken in our country; every culture has left its imprint on ours; every point of view is expressed in our public squares. What has always united us -- what has always driven our people; what drew my father to America's shores -- is a set of ideals that speak to aspirations shared by all people: that we can live free from fear and free from want; that we can speak our minds and assemble with whomever we choose and worship as we please.

Those are the aspirations that joined the fates of all nations in this city. Those aspirations are bigger than anything that drives us apart. It is because of those aspirations that the airlift began. It is because of those aspirations that all free people -- everywhere -- became citizens of Berlin. It is in pursuit of those aspirations that a new generation -- our generation -- must make our mark on history.

People of Berlin -- and people of the world -- the scale of our challenge is great. The road ahead will be long. But I come before you to say that we are heirs to a struggle for freedom. We are a people of improbable hope. Let us build on our common history, and seize our common destiny, and once again engage in that noble struggle to bring justice and peace to our world.

Seems to me that this ad tries to make impoverished status hit home with white youth, which I think it does very well. I am not from South Africa; I've never seen Apartheid nor it's direct effects. I am from New York City and see the direct effects of centuries of structured socialization that prevents the so-called races from identifying with one another. This ad has made even me see things a little differently.

This is a great advert but it's a gross over simplfication of the South African 'problem'. It pushes the black/white dichotomy that has very quickly become irrelevant in the current socio-economic climate and does nothing to advance any meaningfull discourse.

It feels to me like it's promoting the idea that subversive racism is still the large cause of the many problems in South Africa, which is clearly not the case. The imagery is effective in communicating the largely unchanged landscape of the 'new' South Africa, but I never get the impression that it's trying to get its audience to question why the structures haven't changed. This kind of imagery is only going to further aggravate the prejudice that is alive and well in S.A. You have to be practical about Sabc 1's target audience as well. It's very much youth oriented, and imagery like this is not going to be put into the broader context that it deserves.

It's this kind of systemic oversimplification that has lead to issues like the current xenophobic violence and it's a scary indicator of things to come.

How about questioning the GEAR (Growth, Employment and Redistribution) strategy that the government has employed since 1996 (Privatisation, Open markets, etc etc. Sound familiar?), or the negative influence the WTO and World Bank have had on South Africa's economic environment. How about discussing the fact that the new government has had to deal with around 343 billion rands worth of debt incurred by the previous apartheid government, and how this has effectively crippled their ability to implement substantial change, forcing the government to sell off many nationalised assets at one point to cover the payments. Add on top of that the loss of control of the South African reserve bank, corrupt and inept politicans, badly thought out black economic empowerment programs, rising unemployment, etc etc etc and it gets pretty complex and messy very quickly, and that's why simplifying it down to race is disengenuous and incredibly damaging.

My fear is that this xenophobic violence weve started seeing is the first expression of the economic climate that is developing in South Africa due to a cocktail of the broader worldwide economic crisis and the lackadaisical economic programs employed by the current goverment. And with imagery like this being promoted, I wouldn't be suprised if it spills into overt racial violence at some point.

Comparing incarceration rates in the USA and Stalin's U.S.S.R.

U.S.S.R. (1950) ....... 1,423 per 100,000

U.S. (2002) ........... 2,298 per 100,000

Incarceration rates of black men in apartheid South Africa and contemporary America

South Africa (1993) ....... 851 per 100,000
U.S. (2002) ............... 7,150 per 100,000

Source: U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics, Prison Policy Initiative, "The International Use of Incarceration", Marc Mauer of The Sentencing Project.

In the documentary, "Jimmy Carter Man from Plains," there is a segment that discusses his use of the word "apartheid" in his book title and content.