Hamas was voted into power by the Palestinian people after Bushes push for election in the region, they were for the seperation plans until Bush left the region and the IDF killed a Palestinian in Gaza starting the endless violence again. The PLO and the Fatah organizations are not legitimate.

The Dahlan gang in Gaza and Abbass in the West Bank are not representative of the Palestinian people as they have been shown to be supported by and only exist for the concessionary actions pushed forward by US and Israel.

Previously IDF military campaigns would divide the Palestinians with their political representatives, this didn't happen now with Hamas as the IDF has seen happen with Yasser, PLO and Fatah as a whole.

And please don't try changing the subject, what the IDF has done was targeting civilians in Gaza to punish them collectively as a whole. It could have entered Gaza as a ground force and routed out the 'terrorists', as it had done in the past but no they needed a large shock and awe campaign to reinforce their oppression and apartheid.

Do you actually believe this campaign with its large civilian death count would actually mean no more attacks will happen? Or do you think this solidified even more resistance?

Even the Americans and NATO knew that if they killed too many civilians in Afghanistan or Iraq they would only increase resistance not decrease it.

Ha. Trying to spin it like that are we?

Yeah lets make it all sound like this whole conflict started just in 2000. You know let's ignore every UN resolution shot down by the US for its buddy Israel, the incursions of Israelis on Palestinians lives. The creation of apartheid in the West Bank and Gaza.

Such an apologist for Israeli actions. Israel created Hamas and Hezboallah through its own policy actions, a blow back effect that can be seen in the way the West and Israel dealt with the Arab world in the past.

For your information the Arab world has provided jobs and living for the Palestinians all over the Middle East.

Stop trying to disassemble historical facts. If Israel wanted peace it would actively pursue it, not force concessions on the Palestinians, assassinate its leaders and target its civilians.

Hey, just read some of your comments on: http://www.videosift.com/video/UK-Jewish-MP-Israel-acting-like-Nazis-in-Gaza

Respect for your well thought out and patient comments. I really think Israel is making itself the contemporary apartheid South Africa.

^ Here's what's happening:

Palestinians get killed in Palestine. Israelis get killed where? In Palestine. Why? Because of the fence/apartheid wall built - built where? In the West Bank:
http://www.videosift.com/video/Israel-s-apartheid-wall-in-the-West-Bank
This video shows a woman whose house is surrounded on 3 sides by the wall - which scales, as far as I can tell, 20 feet.

Get Israel out of Palestine, and maybe there could be peace...

dead tofu, apartheid in South Africa was based on white people's beliefs about the racial inferiority of black people.

The Israelis do not think that the Palestinian people are inferior, racially or otherwise. The Israelis want to stop being threatened and killed by Palestinians.

The anti-apartheid movement was renowned for being almost entirely pacifistic.

The Palestinian movements are rarely pacifistic, and are not simply about having voting rights and equal treatment under the law. The Palestinian movements are mostly focused on sovereignty (an admirable and moral goal), and the destruction of the state of Israel (not so much).

>> ^yakyak:
seriously guys,
you have the right to be pissed of on Israel. But comparing it to Nazi-Germany is simply naive. Just try to imagine Hitler on a negotiation for a 2-state solution. muhahaha.



yes, israel has been working so hard on that one. ripping palestinian land, the tiny bit they have left, into pieces. hitler once promised peace, and not to invade certain countries.

since you dont agree on the nazi comparison, then explain to me the difference between the apartheid in s-africa and israel today?

>> ^mharvey42:
It is a modern democratic republic, until recently the only one in the Middle East (Now joined by Iraq of course). Arabs are citizens within the country: vote, own property and businesses and have members in the Knesset.
Arabs have more liberty and prosperity in Israel than any Muslim country. Within the so-called occupied territories there are the Arabs calling themselves "Palestinian" who refuse to join Israeli society, or disperse around the region, or live in peace.
Israel does have a strong armed force: to defend against these belligerants, and to protect from the neighboring countries that periodically wage illegal wars of intended genocide on her.


You mean Arab jews of course. Do you consider Palestinians to be Arab? Because the treatment of millions of Palestinians kind of negates any "good" treatment of Arabs who live in Israel. I also think you mistake Arab jews treatment, which isn't the same.

Everything you say is beyond bizarrely ignorant.. THe so-called occupied territories.. they silly Palestinians "refuse" to join Israeli society... or "disperse"... You are completely ignorant of all modern history??!!

Israel wages illegal wars, both of the pre-emptive kind and also the regular justified kind where UN & Geneva conventions are shit upon. So if your point is that these other countries are waging illegal war, then you fail because Israel is ten times more illegal in it's military offenses. How often are these neighboring countries illegally killing international aide workers or attacking ships in the Mediterranean? In fact, Israel is probably the last country military to destroy a US naval ship.

>> ^messenger:
^Are you a character witness? None of what you said has anything to do with whether Israel is an apartheid state. Israel may get good marks at school, go all-state in basketball, and phone mom on her birthday, but that doesn't mean Israel didn't kick the neighbour's dog.
For the record,
International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid:

inhuman acts committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them

^Are you a character witness? None of what you said has anything to do with whether Israel is an apartheid state. Israel may get good marks at school, go all-state in basketball, and phone mom on her birthday, but that doesn't mean Israel didn't kick the neighbour's dog.

For the record,

International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid:

inhuman acts committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them

inhumane acts of a character ... committed in the context of an institutionalised regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime

>> ^donotthink:
This is not an issue of debate. Israel is an apartheid state. It has an army that is powerful enough to give fuck all about their own Supreme Court decisions, and it has created two of the worlds largest concentration camps in Gaza and the West Bank.
It's amusing and fun when the TV show is called "Hogan's Heroes", and the heroes always manage to thwart the evil fascists plans. It does not taste good when people realize that they are themselves the fascists being pointed upon.


DoNotThink - Way to live up to your name. Israel is not an apartheid state in any sense of the word.

It is a modern democratic republic, until recently the only one in the Middle East (Now joined by Iraq of course). Arabs are citizens within the country: vote, own property and businesses and have members in the Knesset.

Arabs have more liberty and prosperity in Israel than any Muslim country. Within the so-called occupied territories there are the Arabs calling themselves "Palestinian" who refuse to join Israeli society, or disperse around the region, or live in peace.

Israel does have a strong armed force: to defend against these belligerants, and to protect from the neighboring countries that periodically wage illegal wars of intended genocide on her.

This is not an issue of debate. Israel is an apartheid state. It has an army that is powerful enough to give fuck all about their own Supreme Court decisions, and it has created two of the worlds largest concentration camps in Gaza and the West Bank.

It's amusing and fun when the TV show is called "Hogan's Heroes", and the heroes always manage to thwart the evil fascists plans. It does not taste good when people realize that they are themselves the fascists being pointed upon.

"but it is a political and military entity - Hamas - that is Israel's stated target, not an ethnic one."

You can't understand how stupid this is? Ok, then Palestinian militants aren't anti-semitic, they just want to get rid of the political and military entity of Israel.

And the problem isn't really Israel taking out Hamas fighters or leaders, it's the hundreds of civilians and children being bombed and bulldozed in their houses and schools. That's sounds like war crimes and genocide, especially when it is done to an occupied apartheid open air prison camp.

And no, there is only evidence that Israel is interested in occupying illegal lands and killing as many Palestinians as it takes to accomplish this. Imagine if you were in control of a million people's lives who are walled in by your tanks and F-16 and war ships and they have no clean water and little electricity and food. Certainly it's not like your are trying to kill them all by blocking all aid and food and water and them dropping bombs on the refugee shelters. Really?

Merci! 4 bringing this piece of history under more attention

In reply to this comment by lavoll:
*promote

Ha.

You guys are ridiculous, you think the IDF bombing Gaza will eliminate Hamas? Did the Lebanon war eliminate Hezbollah? Both these entities came forth from Israel aggression and injustice in dealing with Palestine. Jewish people themselves resent the Zionist actions of the military forces knowing full well that everything that is wrought now will back fire in new groups, new individuals and new suicide bombers.

But you know maybe it will! Who knows! It definitely has worked in Afghanistan and Iraq! Not COIN or hearts and minds but simply we have to bomb Gaza to save it!

Gaza has been under blockade for 2 years, continuous apartheid has been in effect for far longer, its economical, socially and politically been coerced into fighting in any means it can, the Israelis have gone into the West Bank and Gaza countless times to seek out terrorists only to see them rise again like hydra heads because the essential underlining policy of achieving peace is flawed in design to propagate continuous hostility and conflict with the Palestinian people. You know so Israel can claim victim, build walls all over, sniper towers while pushing settlements out and claim a bit more land.

Zionism wants Israel to occupy West Bank and Gaza with no Palestinian state, so in effect Hamas wants the elimination of Israel. The two policies are mirrors of one another.

The Palestinian areas have hand every building bombed, bulldozed and blown through so many times and you guys are saying Hamas should act like uniformed forces against the IDF. It's asymmetrical warfare, the same kind the Fedayeen employed against US forces after seeing how the Taliban got bombed to shit in Tora Bora.

That's just plain military tactics, its unfortunate they use suicide bombing and rocket attacks but hey you know they don't have obligatory military service, Merkava Tanks, F-16s, Apaches or a steady supply of Military Aid from the US.

The US achieved peace with a hostile enemy by employed the methodology of COIN and hearts and minds to allow Iraqis to govern themselves, though years late cooperation and dialog in parts of Iraq have shown that soft contact with the local populace has meant that Iraqis actively gave up insurgents themselves.

Contrast this methodology with Israel hostile stance against all Palestinian people and you quickly realize that peace is not what Israel is striving for. It's a political process of land acquisition through the guise of fighting terrorism.

mharvey, you are either a good troll or you like remaining ignorant.

Going back to 2000. Whenever there was a lull in the violence, guess which side alway started up the killings first? Just like in this last bit of violence, Israel is the one who starts killing Palestinians.

It's not because they want peace, they do it to justify bulldozing and bombing and keeping their apartheid strong, and possible the extermination of a race of people.

I recommend this post which has some illustrative graphs and links to show Israel breaking the peace.