QM,
There is no need to put labels on these people. Labels are a sign of weakness in any argument. The OWS have repeatedly stated that they are not affiliated with any party. They are mad at the current state of our government; they are not promoting a political agenda - I didn't see a single banner promoting somebody's name on it. I think you, and many others, keep missing the fundamental point that these people are attacking lobbyism and backroom deals that happen in Washington - most of which are triggered by the oil industry, big pharma, and the financial sector. The focal point of their day-to-day transactions is indeed Wall St.

Why not Washington you say? People are mad at the economy (outsourced jobs, bailouts, foreclosures) and the pulse of our economy is measured in Wall St. Why is this a surprise? The medial keeps trying to funnel the OWS people into a political agenda, which in fact, is non-existent. As LaGreca stated so eloquently, this is a "general assembly vs. top-heavy town hall" issue; I think people from all parts of the political should agree with that, regardless of their affiliation. The assumption that people are going to come with a list of demands is based on the fact that this is a political movement with a leadership. Many people at OWS have different conflicting concerns, and there is nothing wrong with that. That's how democracy works. One thing they all agree on is that change is needed (and by change I don't mean replace President A with President B).

I know you are going to attack Obama and Liberals (I despise Obama btw), but you have to understand that this collapsed economy was created by Bush and happened on his watch - the house has been under republican control for quite some time now and the senate has 13 centrist democrats that lean toward republican ideology and vote against their own party consistently. You just can't blame one man or one party. The whole system is rigged. When it comes to the economic policies, it's not who's playing the game that's the problem, it's the rules of the game itself.

So in short, QM, I think you're not always wrong as I tend to agree with some of your posts, but you're not always right either. Neither am I. The truth is somewhere in between.

As my old English teacher used to say, the best argument is the one that sits on the fence...

>> ^quantumushroom:

Ah, I see what you attempted, so let me elaborate.
The average oh-so-lovable working class stiff is chock-full of wrongful assumptions about business, law and government, but he's still forgotten more than will ever be known by the self-anointed liberal intelligentsia, whose theories and follies he pays for every day.
>> ^NetRunner:
>> ^quantumushroom:
The average oh-so-lovable working class stiff is chock-full of wrongful assumptions about business, law and government.
Tell me about it.

Isn't there already quite a bit of evidence that there's no historical record of Jesus or his miracles outside the bible, which is flawed, having been revised and mistranslated over the centuries? Hasn't the church been forced enough times to give up many of their views of how the universe works, to make their self-claimed infallibility a joke?

As usual I guess they'd just say it's all part of god's plan.

I upvoted this because I believe this is part of the future of science. It is easy to dismiss these concepts as new age touchy-feely stuff and poo-poo it out of hand.

But it is similar to something discussed in this vid http://videosift.com/video/Dark-Energy

70% of the universe is unexplained and for "placeholder" purposes, it is now called Dark Energy, until scientists can figure it out. This wasn't even a question 50 years ago, now our brightest minds are looking into it.

"Gaia consciousness" could well be the Dark Energy of the future.

Until then, whether it exists or not, it is fact that we are seriously screwing with the ecosystems of this planet. So whether there is "collective intelligence" or not, we had better get on to seriously changing our behavior.

>> ^criticalthud:

They're still engaged in a primitive debate.
Conceptually, we can't even get passed the notion that god is a singular "being" like us, rather than a vast intellectual complexity - that only becomes more complex as evolution continues. and we are all part of that process. recycled energy in an infinite process.
we're just so fucking self-centered that we miss the the intelligence that is all around us, and just how interdependent we are on the biodiversity we are mindlessly destroying.
we miss the fact that there is a collective intelligence of this planet, without which, we would be nothing. and instead of nurturing it, we're jerking off.

They're still engaged in a primitive debate.
Conceptually, we can't even get passed the notion that god is a singular "being" like us, rather than a vast intellectual complexity - that only becomes more complex as evolution continues. and we are all part of that process. recycled energy in an infinite process.

we're just so fucking self-centered that we miss the the intelligence that is all around us, and just how interdependent we are on the biodiversity we are mindlessly destroying.

we miss the fact that there is a collective intelligence of this planet, without which, we would be nothing. and instead of nurturing it, we're jerking off.

Thanks for asking, that's very considerate of you and appreciated. No worries about crossing paths with me, it's bound to happen and all part of the game.

In reply to this comment by Boise_Lib:
Hey,
I noticed we are both mining old videos for dead, length, and thumbnail points.

http://videosift.com/video/Red-Dwarf-Wilma-Flintstone

I don't want to step on your turf--or anything--should I leave videos with your fingerprints on them alone?

God is sovereign and can adjudicate His creation how He pleases. God caused a global flood which killed everyone in the world except for 8 people. God recalls the lives of over a million people every day. It's in His hands. It's not an atrocity to take a life when you were the one who granted it in the first place and the one who sustained it daily. He has the power over life and death and is well within His rights to use it. Who are you tell God what He can or cannot do with it? This entire world belongs to Him.

You seem to be under some illusion that people are generally good. They're not. Have you ever read a history book? People are generally sinful. God dealt with people as they deserved. Are you blind or just stupid? Do you not see the evil going on in this world? Everywhere you put a human authority, you have corruption and death. There aren't any innocents here. I think you are just naive.

I don't know what your sins are, but you do. You are guilty and without Jesus you will stand condemned for them at judgement day. Your sin, btw, isn't just not honoring God, it's also blaspheming Him and speaking all sorts of vile things against Him. You just can't seem to keep your mouth shut about Him. You gravitate to everything I do or say about God here, just to get your mockery in. Well, you are just digging yourself a deeper hole:

Galatians 6:7

Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.

>> ^MaxWilder:
>> ^shinyblurry:
Satan doesn't force people to do evil, nor do people get confused about what is right and wrong. Everyone has a god given conscience which tells them right from wrong. God allows people to use their free will choice, and He allows them to reap the consequences of their actions. He gives them every chance to repent and gives them fair warning of the consequences if they don't. Everyone has a real chance to prove themselves in this world, and if they prove themselves to be evil, then that is what they are. God isn't looking to send people to hell, but if they prefer doing evil then they deserve to go there.
This isn't about what you consider fair, lets just lay that joke to rest. This is about your desire for personal autonomy and your rejection of Gods authority. It's your desire to sin without consequence. Like every other unrepentent sinner, you are a hypocrite who shakes his fist at God because he knows full well that he is guilty and doesn't want to be judged for it. You refuse to come to God for forgiveness because you prefer your sins.
John 3:19
This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

In one breath you tell me "Everyone has a god given conscience which tells them right from wrong." Then in the next you say God doesn't give a shit about what I consider fair? I'm just supposed to shut up, obey, and worship? The list of atrocities committed by your God in the old testament is long and thoroughly revolting, and I'm just supposed to swallow it all and sing his praises?
Talk about hypocrisy!!!
You want to put a joke to rest, stop with that bullshit about wanting to sin without consequence! I know full well that actions harmful to one's self or others have consequences right here and now. No need to wait for divine justice. And the only "sin" I am committing as far as you know is the one about not worshiping God. But honestly, that's all part and parcel with my understanding that he doesn't exist. So unless you have some specifics about my "sins", your assumptions are meaningless and just make you look like a judgmental ass.
"Think for yourself. Otherwise people will think for you, to their own benefit." - Max 11:13

>> ^shinyblurry:

Satan doesn't force people to do evil, nor do people get confused about what is right and wrong. Everyone has a god given conscience which tells them right from wrong. God allows people to use their free will choice, and He allows them to reap the consequences of their actions. He gives them every chance to repent and gives them fair warning of the consequences if they don't. Everyone has a real chance to prove themselves in this world, and if they prove themselves to be evil, then that is what they are. God isn't looking to send people to hell, but if they prefer doing evil then they deserve to go there.
This isn't about what you consider fair, lets just lay that joke to rest. This is about your desire for personal autonomy and your rejection of Gods authority. It's your desire to sin without consequence. Like every other unrepentent sinner, you are a hypocrite who shakes his fist at God because he knows full well that he is guilty and doesn't want to be judged for it. You refuse to come to God for forgiveness because you prefer your sins.
John 3:19
This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."


In one breath you tell me "Everyone has a god given conscience which tells them right from wrong." Then in the next you say God doesn't give a shit about what I consider fair? I'm just supposed to shut up, obey, and worship? The list of atrocities committed by your God in the old testament is long and thoroughly revolting, and I'm just supposed to swallow it all and sing his praises?

Talk about hypocrisy!!!

You want to put a joke to rest, stop with that bullshit about wanting to sin without consequence! I know full well that actions harmful to one's self or others have consequences right here and now. No need to wait for divine justice. And the only "sin" I am committing as far as you know is the one about not worshiping God. But honestly, that's all part and parcel with my understanding that he doesn't exist. So unless you have some specifics about my "sins", your assumptions are meaningless and just make you look like a judgmental ass.


"Think for yourself. Otherwise people will think for you, to their own benefit." - Max 11:13

>> ^marbles:

>> ^bareboards2:
I am backing out of this. Internet speculation. That link you provided? Witnesses say they saw a muzzle flash, but one man says he didn't. The shooting site was overrun by bystanders and completely contaminated, evidence has gone missing, stolen from the site.
We may never know the truth.
Except we do know that young black men running away from "stealing" a ride on the bus are NOT shot every day.
I wish you had a relative who worked as a public safety officer, marbles. I wish someone you loved risked their life on a daily basis doing their job. Because I think you would talk differently if it was your brother or your son or your sister chasing after a man firing a gun at them.
Anyway. I'm done with this. You are going to believe what you want. Not even a moment of doubt that that man was shooting while running? No room for that possibility? Just hatred and fear because they wear a badge. I got no time or energy fighting your hatred and fear.
I wish you well.

WTF is internet speculation? So what do you call parroting the police? The Police Chief said there were witnesses that saw a muzzle flash. Who is the Police Chief talking about? THE TWO COPS THAT SHOT THE KID! So where's the gun? There were several witnesses that said the kid didn't have a gun. The shooting site wasn't overrun by bystanders, and any contamination or theft was the willingness of the police to let it happen. And who's going to steal bullet casings? You have clear video of the scene right here immediately after it happened and yet you blindly defend the police.
You're backing out of it because you have no reason to believe what you believe other than your misguided and narrow-minded convictions that leave no room for rational thought. And you actually mock Christians for their beliefs?
Using your line of reasoning I should be telling you I wish you had a relative that was unjustly gun downed by a public safety officer, bareboards2. I think you would talk differently (WTF?) if it was your brother or your son or your sister murdered by the police.
Hatred and fear because they wear a badge? You don't have a fuckin clue what you're talking about. I have friends that are local cops, deputies, and in the military. That doesn't mean I'm a fuckin government sycophant. I believe in the rule of law, not the rule of government.
Do you have any rational arguments?
When I first posted the video, I took the original submitter at face value. There was no gun and MANY first handed witnesses in the video. I searched for a news article to get the latest on the story and found out Harding apparently had gunshot residue on his hands. So my next thought was that maybe he ditched the gun while fleeing. The quote I posted (in the first comment here) didn't make much sense, but I still thought it was plausible if he ditched his gun.
But that doesn't match up to what the police claimed happened. They claimed he shot 1 time, they returned fire shot 9 times, all in a matter of 6 seconds. So where's the gun? They didn't secure the gun? That's the first thing the cop would've done. Where's the bullet casings? Oh yeah, they mysteriously disappeared too.
And furthermore the story they concocted about a guy picking up the gun and running off and then somehow they magically find the gun later at some other anonymous parolee's house? That's complete bullshit. That alone should tell you they're covering it up.
Yeah, we may never know the truth. Just don't let that get in the way of believing your pack of lies.


the site wasnt overrun by bystanders? were you watching the fucking same video?!

anyway, the crux of it is this. in your own words, we have a video of the scene right after. and youre right. thats all it fucking is. the aftermath. no context. no lead in. just aftermath. and you are so quick to demonize the officers. with nothing but aftermath to go on. no context. no evidence. just speculation and aftermath. so in what damn way is that any different than what you are accusing (laughably i might add) bareboards of?

you say you believe in the rule of law and yet you are lynching (at least verbally) every cop on that scene. and based on what? some very early reports, a handful of conflicting eye witness accounts, and a video that literally has zero context. rule of law my fucking ass.

i can see both sides of this, and frankly, its plausible either way. but until i have all the evidence, i cannot intelligently make any kind of conclusion. oh but not you, you who has that 6th sense about these things. Those cops totally did it! i mean look at em! they look like dirty cops. and everyone knows cops are corrupt and theyre all part of political propaganda coverups. someone get a rope!

That is fucking disgusting. You can argue all you like about whether or not it's still 'alive' or whether it's a reflex action. The problem is the barbaric disregard for another creature's life that is on display here.

"Look, poor hot liquid on it and it moves, HAW HAW HAW, how amusing, it's funny how the near dead creature still moves"

Fucking wrong.

There are a lot of westerners who hold up Japanese culture as being some pinnacle of human manners and decency and good... and then you look at hentai porn and the number of cruel and unusual ways they manage to eat/store/treat live animals and I have to question that a lot.

Yes we eat animals, as do a lot of other animals, it's all part of the food chain, but we should be above causing them distress and indignity merely for our amusement.

I upvote so more people can see the 'majesty of Japanese culture'.

(I am planning on having sushi for lunch... as an aside)

All part of the show, folks. The sea lion was rewarded with food for the behavior.

So Teddy Roosevelt was a communist?!

It doesn't mean there's no problem government can't fix. It means that gov't can fix shortcomings in a free market system with reforms. You know things like the Meat Inspection Act and the Pure Food and Drug Act, those terrible gov't programs that spend other people's money to do things like ensuring what you buy at the grocery store won't kill you. How wasteful!

The Progressive Movement was about eliminating corruption in government. It was about improving society through various means, including gov't involvement when needed, but not always. For example, Henry Ford paid his workers well, very much against what most factory owners did, as Ford was heavily influenced by the Progressive Movement. Settlement Houses were charity based, not government run, and helped to educate adults to become more effective workers by teaching various skills. Yes, it overstepped its bounds with Prohibition, but it also brought the following communist, socialist, un-American things:

Women's Suffrage
Meritocracy to gov't agencies and officials
Modernized public schools
Food and Drug Administration
Busted up monopolies to protect consumers
Regulated unfair business practices designed to eliminate competition at the detriment to consumers
Safer working conditions
End of child labor
Fairer pay for workers with things like the minimum wage
Unemployment insurance

I'm sure qm will have a problem with some of the above, but how can you argue with the vast majority of them? Most historians rank T. Roosevelt and FDR as two of America's best presidents. They're probably the two most well known Progressives in US History.

This is of course all part of the communist conspiracy!!!

>> ^quantumushroom:

Progressivism = socialism = statism = communism lite and regular brand.
Nutshell:

There's no problem government can't solve! Just keep throwing other peoples' money at it!

>> ^GeeSussFreeK:
Someone care to explain what "progressive" means? I can't find a suitable definition on the internets, or in commonality of liberal progressives. The only meaningful definition was from progressive tax codes, but I don't think that idea encapsulates the entirety of this vague concept.

Ahh, no, they aren't all necssarily one long take..but they are all part of the same campaign video..which was obviously edited for different audiences, but it wasn't all the same take..and as far as credibility goes, i don't think your testimony about me is particularly credible, seeing as it has been laden with ridicule from the outset

>> ^Drax:
>> ^shinyblurry:
These are all cut from one campaign video..they aren't different takes..whether it works on you or not its an example of politicians blantantly using mind control

Oh, you know this for fact? I've seen the raw footage from what this is from, she's addressing differen't people in different areas with each take. They are NOT part of one piece / interview / whatever you want to call it. The little cut to animated text scenes in this video is masking that this isn't one long take.
So.. you'll claim to know something for sure without all the facts, so long as it matches what YOU want it to be, huh?
Now how's anyone supposed to take anything you claim with any credibitlity?

How can you say "pseudo-religion" The FSM is as real to me as your "holy spirit" thing.

Just because you don't feel the loving touch of his noodly appendages, doesn't give you the right to Diss my faith over yours.

(nor does it give me the right to vandalise your church either.)

No one should use their freedom of expression, freedom of choise, freedom of faith/belief to deny that same right to others. (these Fucktards clearly did and that's sad)

Although on the plus side. Everything happens for a reason, and just because you can't see your God and my FSM moves/wiggles in a mysterious way. So maybe it's just all part of the big pasta plan?

Its not a lack of police to fight drug cartels which is the cause of the violence. That analysis is hollow. You are leaving out the devastating consequences of NAFTA and imperialism on these countries.

Poverty and unemployment have only worsened as a result of subsidies going towards big agrobussiness instead of local farmers. This is what leads to crime. Its a reaction by the working class getting even more fucked. When you can't get any $ by growing corn and instead have the chance to make $ selling drugs, yeah, you do it.

It isn't a coincidence that the majority of immigrants come from countries that have had dictators and death squads with the support of the US. Guatamala, El Salvador, Mexico. Destroyed economies create migrants which are CHEAP LABOR. Add to this the criminalization of immigrants with AZ's SB1070 and GA's copycat HB87. The AZ bill was pretty much written by Corrections Corporation of America, a private prison corporation which gets $200 per bed a night.

Its all part of the imperative of profit, the inherent violence of capitalism, duh
----
Additional reading:

http://blog.sojo.net/2010/10/28/prison-and-profits-the-politics-of-az%E2%80%99s-sb1070-bill-revealed/

http://www.democracynow.org/2011/5/25/harvest_of_empire_new_book_exposes
"And then there's this from independent journalist Zafar Bangash:

"The CIA, as Cockburn and (Jeffrey) St Clair reveal, had been in this business right from the beginning. In fact, even before it came into existence, its predecessors, the OSS and the Office of Naval Intelligence, were involved with criminals. One such criminal was Lucky Luciano, the most notorious gangster and drug trafficker in America in the forties."

The CIA's involvement in drug trafficking closely dovetails America's adventures overseas - from Indo-China in the sixties to Afghanistan in the eighties....As Alfred McCoy states in his book: Politics of Heroin: CIA complicity in the Global Drug Trade, beginning with CIA raids from Burma into China in the early fifties, the agency found that 'ruthless drug lords made effective anti-communists." ("CIA peddles drugs while US Media act as cheerleaders", Zafar Bangash, Muslimedia, January 16-31, 1999)

And, this from author William Blum:

"ClA-supported Mujahedeen rebels ... engaged heavily in drug trafficking while fighting against the Soviet-supported government," writes historian William Blum. "The Agency's principal client was Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, one of the leading druglords and a leading heroin refiner. CIA-supplied trucks and mules, which had carried arms into Afghanistan, were used to transport opium to laboratories along the Afghan/Pakistan border. The output provided up to one half of the heroin used annually in the United States and three-quarters of that used in Western Europe....""


http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=18877

I can't stand jumping between sites for videos like this. made a backup with all parts in it from the same source.

*backup=[...snipped...]