This reminds me of the Great Disappointment of 1844. Unfortunately, the cognitive dissonance of not having the prophecy fulfilled makes those involved double down and become MORE devoted to the cause afterwards.

sighs..
/doublefacepalm
this is becoming....tiresome.
i came to the decision to stop being a snark towards shinyblurry because his tone had softened a bit and he appeared more willing to interact in a more human and engaging way.
since he stated he had been studying for years (specifically what he never states) i put forth a few questions.
i put a lot of thought in to those questions.
not to be an ass,or pull a gotcha nor even to be "right" but rather to hear his response.
the questions were really not that important but his answers would reveal much on how he viewed certain dilemmas facing todays evangelical christian.
and since he says he has studied for years i framed the questions with tidbits and items a first year seminarian would know and would have already dealt with.
i now suspect that when shinyblurry says he "has studied for years" he means personal study.
nothing wrong with that.
thats how i did it too for many years and then was blessed to meet one of the most amazing people who decided to mentor and teach me..dr paul.

@smooman
you totally missed the point of my post.
i was not attempting to prove the existence of these resurrection deities and by proxy disprove jesus.nor did i gank that from zeitgeist..so lets not get derailed.
the question was how does shinyblurry resolve this issue?
his answer was "satan did it".
now that answer from an evangelical perspective is expected but from an intellectual one it is weak.
i am NOT being an ass here,just pointing out what should be obvious.
"satan did it" is a cheap and lazy way out.

@shinyblurry
the questions i asked were conundrums.
you have to think your way through them...not dismiss out of hand.
you have focused on zoraorastrian.
posted links to pages.
may i just say up front that i am not interested in someones elses research nor their conclusions but rather very interested in yours.
my point bringing up zoraorastrian was to illuminate the fact that the bible has been influenced by MANY different and sometimes conflicting theologies,and written by many different authors.
thats why i mentioned gilgamesh.
does the fact that so many authored the bible take away from the its beauty?literature? wisdom?
not at all,but it does paint a picture that is far more human and i was curious how you resolved that issue being an evangelical.
you did answer.."satan"..(i really find that answer unsatisfactory btw)...but you did not say how you resolved that issue.unless "satan" is your true answer and in that case.ok..fair enough.

you never answered which school of theological thought you adhered to (you made me guess).
nor did you answer if you were a preterist.
which is just somebody who believes that messianic prophecy has already been fulfilled.(you wont find any these days.2000 yrs ago you would have though).
this question was in relation to how christianity has evolved over the centuries.
now my question concerning the nicean creed is actually a trick question because it has never been resolved.
325 a.d and the nicean creed was the third attempt and the council decided to stick with it but it never really resolves the trinity.because of this theological failure of the elder council millions over the years have perished and not a small reason chirtianity began to fracture in to smaller subsets...all gaining (and losing ) and gaining again prominence in the christian world.

the questions i asked would reveal if shinyblurry has limited his studies to the 66 books of the KJV or if he has expanded his studies.
again..not for a gotcha moment nor to belittle him, but rather so i would have an idea the parameters in our discussion.

i read the gospels far different than mainstream christianity.
i study origins.
i study the socio-economic and education of that period of time.
the cultural practices and institutions.
when you put all these factors together you gain a much more insightful and complete picture.
i guess i dont understand when someone ignores that very vital part of the equation.
hence my questions.
i wanted to know how shinyblurry dealt with these dilemmas or if he thought of them at all.

living in the bible belt i deal with evangelicals all the time.
in fact i spoke at a local baptist church a few weeks ago.
my sermon was "the mechanics of prayer".they were welcoming and responsive,conversely i have also been told by another group of evangelicals that i will burn in the pit of fire because my idea and understanding of scripture happened to be different from theirs.

i do not understand how some people conflate their religion as themselves.
as somehow they ARE their religion and if their religion comes under any criticism or scrutiny they react like it is THEY who are being personally attacked and lash out with violent intentions (disguised as righteousness).
religion is a system of doctrine and dogma with written scripture as a vehicle.
since scripture is the written word, it is tangible and therefore subject to scrutiny and/or criticism.
and thats how it SHOULD be.i do not know ONE theologian who would disagree with that statement but i have encountered hundreds who feel that ANY scrutiny of their holy text is tantamount to a personal attack upon them.

i was unsure if blurry was a troll or if he was even aware that he was coming across like one.
i am still not sure.
i was ok with making snarky remarks and match blurry tone for tone.until i realized i was behaving poorly and nothing positive would really come out of that form of interaction...maybe amusement for a time.
so i decided to take a different approach and all i got was more of the same.
sad..really.
what a wasted opportunity.
my expectations for this discussion have dwindled considerably.
religion is communal..
faith is personal.
i guess mine is so far removed from shinyblurry's that we are incapable of having a decent discussion with each other.

so there it is folks.as openly and as honestly as i am able.
with sincerity and humility i say this to you shinyblurry.
namaste.

And well I used to steady these things quite deeply..I investigated all of the resurrection accounts..it was surprising how far away it was from factual..none of it held up..i never investigated gilgamesh, but ive heard of it...zorotorism for example.. thats easy, it is a blatant copy of judiasm, mixed in with a reading of the messiah prophecies. there are critical differences however. they say the spirit of God is bad and good and He is only good. They worship the creation rather than the one who created it. there is no atonement, and salvation is by works. it is just like any other pagan religion, but with an idea of good and evil gained from judiasm and the prophecies of the messiah. zorro is a crude copy of christ, not the other way around as it turns out. Remember Satan is the accuser ie the prosecuting attorney. He understands the law down to the letter, he understood a messiah was to come..he always knows his rights.. >> ^enoch:
>> ^shinyblurry:
Is there a point where you're actually going to contribute something to the conversation, or are you just going to stay in the peanut gallery and snipe at me?
No one is out. Just because different Christians believe different things doesn't make them unchristian. Misled, perhaps, but anyone who believes on Christ is saved. Personally, I am non-denominational.
How is the book of John ruled out? What on earth are you talking about? The passages referring to what people call the rapture could be interperted a few different ways..I accept them, I just read them differently.
Look, it's clear you don't know anything about scripture. Why don't you do some research before you toss around these ignorant statements.
>> ^enoch:
>> ^shinyblurry:
No, I don't believe in the rapture..I don't think it is biblical. I know a lot of Christians hope for that but I think it's a false doctrine. No, I don't believe in the May 21st 2011 date either..for two reasons. One is that scripture clearly states that no one knows the hour. That alone makes anyone setting a date automatically wrong. The other is that the person who made this prediction had made another prediction that the world would end in 1994. Obviously it didn't happen so that means that he is a false prophet. If a prophet makes a prediction and even one letter of it doesn't come true it means he is not a real prophet.
>> ^shuac:
While I certainly do not wish to add more stress to shiny by adding more questions to his docket...but ultimately, I cannot resist. And anyway, they're easy yes/no questions...
1) Do you believe in the rapture?
2) Do you believe that it will happen on May 21, 2011 as many theists predict?


ok.
so the pentacostals are out /scratches them off the list.
as is the book of john../more scratching.
any other books i should dismiss?


i am just following the conversation brother.
listening to your witness and taking notes.
so dont dismiss the books but allow for interpretation../check.
read more scripture../check
let me ask you a question.
since you feel im "sniping" from the peanut gallery.( i was being a snark..but snipe is nicer)
if you do not believe in the rapture and find it non-doctrinal,would you consider yourself to be a preterist?
do you consider yourself from ecclestiassitcal,calvinism or maybe even of a arminianism theosophical school of thought?
and if ecclestiassical..how have you resolved the issue of the nicean creed?
another i am curious as to how you may have resolved is zoroastrianism.
how have you been able to separate the seemingly identical stories from both the bible and this pre-christian religion?
i mean one could come to the conclusion that monotheism was actually born from this religion which was influential in judaism and christianity.
reading zarathustra's sermons one may find some close similarities to many of the earliest books of the bible.
or the story of gilgamesh and its seemingly identical recitation of noah,even though gilgamesh was centuries before noah.
how did you rationalize that particular conundrum?
one last question.
since you are christian,as am i,i am extremely curious how you were able to resolve the issue of the resurrection deities:
krishna,osiris,dionysus,mithra.
all were have purported to be the son of god.
to have began their ministry at an early age.
performed miracles.
persecuted and then executed.
dead for three days.
and on the third day were all resurrected.
what about the female resurrection deities?
ishtar and persephone?
they have similar stories too!
i am curious how you dealt with these particular theological dilemmas.

It's bible prophecy, some of which is in revelation, which states basically that the president of the world, when it happens, will be the antichrist.

>> ^gwiz665:

It's funny how judgment day tends to skip a little forward each time we pass the thresholds.. I wonder why that is.
Oh yeah, because it's BULLSHIT.
lies


No, it's because people like you are skeptics and emit negative vibes that interfere with gods will. Please, all doubters, leave this planet, otherwise the holy prophecies just can't come true!

Anyone who thinks they have figured it out hasn't thought about it too deeply. That which is seen is a poor reflection of that which is unseen.

If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing.

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

>> ^PHJF:
Let's face facts, we Americans are a largely stupid people, and given anything more complex than the A-B system we have right now, the majority of us would be overwhelmed and ultimately ignore voting altogether.


Building a political system around the idea that people subject to it are mostly incapable of understanding the decisions made to run their lives sounds to me like a self-fulfilling prophecy. Why would anyone learn about a system they have no power to change?

And thusly the prophecy of the end times was fulfilled.

So You've heard of a leader in a communist country and you used his nickname as if you where talking about Obama, thats so clever!!onoenonee!111 LOL


I figured you could use a break from The Kenyan, Obamarx, The Obamateur, Telepromptesident, O-BOW-ma, Obummer, Odumbo...


Ok, he said everyone had to sacrifice, he did not say break up unions. Mystery "prophecy" fucking solved. Next.

Of course he didn't say break up his campaign-contributing unions, nor is he rescinding failouts, stopping the scamulus, lowering some taxes (without raising them elsewhere), or cutting spending.

That's why he's been such a roaring success as President.

NEXT. <---save it for 2012

>> ^quantumushroom:

"Spreading lies?" No, that really is Dear Leader saying we all gots to sacrifice.
Your point is that you have agreed to all the evil guvmint's demands but one: the right to collective bargaining.

So You've heard of a leader in a communist country and you used his nickname as if you where talking about Obama, thats so clever!!onoenonee!111 LOL

Ok, he said everyone had to sacrifice, he did not say break up unions. Mystery "prophecy" fucking solved. Next.

Ironically, opposing the individual exploiting the collective, when taken to excesses, seems to be its own self fulfilling prophecy.

>> ^kceaton1:I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you have no idea what "Mormon bible" really means. Since I don't believe in that one or the one with extra action with angels or the one with unicorns or the one with "x^n"... There are A LOT of bibles. Which church is the TRUE church; please enlighten me so I may rip that ONE to shreds. I'm sorry that my "Christianity"™ is not good enough for you.
As to the rest... Go ahead and link every direct observation about the Devil and Hell. It's different in each bible as well. Keep going I can't dig a grave any faster than you are already. BTW, the "Ten Commandments" are old school. So do you follow the New Testament or do you pick and choose what to like when it suites you.
I looked at my religion and others discretely and with observation and found the contradictory fallacies, logical arguments that fail, and the diversity of books, translations, and the number of religions to be enough to stop "divinity" in it's tracks for me.
You've yet to show me any logical reason to follow, somewhere I messed up, or otherwise. You are purely on the defensive. If I may say so, you need to take a hard look at religion is giving you. What would happen if you shut it down, for argument's sake? Would your life, your actions dramatically shift? All I have seen, for now, is by rote memorization quotes or otherwise I learned in seminary or Sunday school. Some of it is different of course, but I guarantee that the majority is the same.
Do you think all people that have chosen to forgo there faith and live a moral life without the fear of an afterlife reprisal all did so because they're Mormon? The only commonality we share is that we chose to question those in authority and piece things together ourselves; as we've been all lied to, which was the best reason to question in the first place.
This will be the last of my responses as I think it is on your shoulders now to logically come to your own conclusion; if you think faith/belief are the only key factors then why preach, as you will never be able to open any eyes with platitudes. If you try to defend again you will only repeat what you've already said.



Whoa there little fella. First of all, you've been asking elementry questions about the nature of God, which presupposes in our discussion that He does in fact exist. All I did was try to answer them. You gave the impression that perhaps you believed in *something*. Which Church is the true church? That would be the Body of Christ my friend. There is no institution which has exclusive rights on Christianity. This is the first fallacy of the Mormon church who has the believe they are the only true church, otherwise their "updates" would be exposed for the fraud they are.

Second, what is this that I don't understand what the Mormon bible means? Isn't that the book of Mormon? What am I not understanding? Jump to conclusions much? The true bible is the one the disciples of Christ wrote, which is the New Testament. There have been many different translations, but essentially they all say pretty much the same thing with the same quotes. The major ones which differ are funnily enough, the Mormon version and the Jehovah Witness version. These cults both started up within the last 200 years and pervert the teachings of Christ to their core. They both deny Christs divinity, with the JWs claiming Jesus was an angel, and the mormons claiming Jesus was the first creature, but not divine. As we know from the bible, anything which denies the divinity of Christ is in the spirit of the antichrist. Meaning, Mormonism by definition is a satanic religion. Worshipping the God of Mormonism is the same as worshipping Satan.

Third, you should really do some real research and gain some understanding before you just go off the cuff. The Old Testament is the original bible, in which is the wisdom of the Lord, and the prophecies which predict the coming of Christ. Christ was a jew. The Old Tesament was His bible, and also the bible of the early disciples. It isn't a matter of picking and choosing. A true Christian believes in both. Christ told us that the ten commandments are still valid, and that he was not there to overthrow the law, but to fulfill it.

Look, I'm sorry you had to grow up Mormon, but I can tell you that your upbringing didn't prepare you for this conversation. You don't seem to know even elementry conceptions about who God is, and what the bible says. For you to just turn your vitriol on me, someone who tried to answer your questions, shows your profound lack of maturity. You're going way out of your way to be as callous and insulting about it as possible. And regards to your purile question, I know what it's like to live without faith. Unlike you, I wasn't indoctrinated; for most of my life I was agnostic. I came to God independently, without religion. From there I followed God to Christianity. If you want to talk about shredding something, I think it should be your bad attitude problem. Good luck and God Bless.

Pile up! That is why they named the project Sartre - the project is doomed to an existential demise, a self-fulfilling prophecy!

>> ^Yogi:

Are Angels supposed to scare the living fuck out of me?!


No, just the soul.

I remember my mother told me this once. Some people just need to pray and to believe in something. The whole "easing of the mind" diatribe because they feel powerless and need to feel in control by letting some outward being comfort them. But, it's in my opinion that these people just haven't accepted reality - of what consciousness is, who they are, the modern world, government, war, space, science. If they could just accept reality for what it really is then maybe they wouldn't need a God, christ or religion. They'd have to find beauty in the chaos and accept it or at least ponder it.

I feel like these types are the ones most afraid of psychedelics. Like they think they will see demons and become possessed - they believe in this shit; and maybe they will because of the amount of guilt their religions place upon them or maybe as a strange self-fulfilling prophecy.

I pray maybe twice a year - and it's called either mushrooms or LSD and though those experiences aren't always about feeling "easiness" they do help me accept reality for what it is. And it's always mostly an amazing time ; at least only the good times stick with me. I think American culture needs to embrace moderate use of psychedelics - it'd probably help out the fucked up ways people think in this country.