What I call "good" is acting according to the golden rule...treating others as I would have them treat me. That means always honestly, even when it's uncomfortable. You don't need to know the 'truth' to not lie. It also means thinking before acting of the possible consequence to others as well as myself.
I agree, if thought crime is the same as real crime, I'm a terrible person, but I prefer to judge people's actions as I think it gives better insight to who they are.
If judged by the 10 commandments, I'm still hosed simply by not believing in the unbelievable. I would guess that if thought crime counts on that front, heaven is an empty, lonely place filled only with Asperger's sufferers and other abnormaly brained people, as those requirements are not possible for normal humans.

Heaven is filled with people just like you and me, who absolutely cannot qualify to get into Heaven on account of their own righteousness. When you stand before God you will be judged one of two ways, either by your righteousness or the righteousness of Jesus Christ, which is credited to your account through faith. No one has what it takes..I screw up all the time but God is always there to help me. Through His help I am doing a lot better than I did, but I have a long way to go. I didn't and still don't deserve anything God has done for me. Put your trust and faith in Jesus and you will be prepared for eternity.

Your plane analogy doesn't hold water. Instead of jumping from a plane, I think it's more like being led, blindfolded and deafened, to a doorway, being told by dozens of people the differing things they are CERTAIN are on the other side of the door (but not one of them has ever seen it open) and deciding to trust one line of belief and putting that parachute on because your guy said you're on a cliff and need a parachute, but you might as easily be underwater and need scuba gear instead, then your parachute is a trap, or in space and it's just useless, etc.. Since there's no way to know what's beyond the door, many prefer to go unencumbered by anything, accepting it's likely there's absolutely nothing there, but ready for what may come. In the unlikely event that in the end there is a just god there judging my life, I feel I'll be fine unless ritual is more important than action. It's not a possibility I feel is likely.

Only God can reveal Himself to you. It won't be because you feel the possibility is likely that suddenly you will start to believe. I didn't believe it was likely either; the last thing in the world I imagined would happen was that I would become a Christian. It is only because God gave me personal revelation that He is real and Jesus is His Son that I became a Christian. God is knocking on your door right now, and if you choose to open yourself to what He wants to show you, He will reveal Himself to you as well. That's what happened to me; He didn't just make it clear, He made it crystal clear and He'll do the same for you too. Ask Him to show you what the truth is so that you do not have to deal with possibilities. Pray and ask God to show you whether He is there and Jesus is His Son. Read the gospel of John and pray and ask God to show you whether it is true or not. God isn't hiding from you, it is simply a matter of whether you are willing to repent of your sins and turn to Jesus, or not.

Your video, Praying Mantis Fly Swatter, has made it into the Top 15 New Videos listing. Congratulations on your achievement. For your contribution you have been awarded 1 Power Point.

@eric3579 and any others:

I think the lyrics of what the band members sing are improvised on the spot. The official lyrics are at http://songmeanings.com/songs/view/3530822107859433424/ and lots of the stuff I can make out are clearly not in that version, though it matches the video in my one comment, save the improvised bit the one band member does.

So my best guess based on listening to it many times (time stamps of improvised bits in {}):

I love my god, god made love
I love my god, god made love
I love my god, god made good
I love my god, god made hate
I love my god, god made bad
I love my god, god made me

I don't wanna pray to my maker
[whoa]I just wanna be what I see
Not just who I am, but the pink in golden land
And that wide wild sky over me
Help me to the sun, hey I'm looking everywhere

Pardon god and mom, if what I'm sayin' isn't fair
Hey I'm looking to become, not the prayer but the prayer
And now I don't want to pray
[No] I say I don't wanna pray
[No] I don't wanna pray
Who don't wanna pray

(but still)
I love my god, god made love
I love my god, god made love
I love my god, god made good
I love my god, god made hate
I love my god, god made bad
I love my god, god made me

(but still)
I don't wanna pray to my maker
[No] I just wanna be feelin' free
Not like in a book, or the leaves of trees that shook
From a word that means only not a thing

Pardon god and mom, if what I'm sayin' isn't fair
Hey I'm looking to become, not the prayer but the prayer
And now I don't want to pray
[No] I say I don't wanna pray
[No] I don't wanna pray
Who don't wanna pray

{2:21}(alright Seth)
God ain't some man way high above me
[No] I think god is in the earth and in the land
I love by what I do
So for me I think that its true
That's its hard to worship when I'm on my knees

Pardon god and mom, if what I'm sayin' isn't fair
Hey I'm looking to become, not the prayer but the prayer
And now I don't want to pray
[No] I say I don't wanna pray
[No] I don't wanna pray
Who don't wanna pray

{3:04}(Christian)
When I was a boy my daddy made me
[Whoa] Read a story to him every night
Took me 'till it hurt, that stupid shirt shit don't work
[garbled] tell me to try

Pardon god and mom, if what I'm sayin' isn't fair
Hey I'm looking to become, not the prayer but the prayer
And now I don't want to pray
[No] I say I don't wanna pray
[No] I don't wanna pray
Who don't wanna pray

{3:48}(now Sash(?))
I don't wanna pray to my maker
[No] [Don't let me be a servant?] won't you please
Not like greasy crook or those thevin smiley looks
I just want to be of helpin' if you need

Pardon god and mom, if what I'm sayin' isn't fair
Hey I'm looking to become, not the prayer but the prayer
And now I don't want to pray
[No] I say I don't wanna pray
[No] I don't wanna pray
Who don't wanna pray

{4:35}Now I've seen her in the shadow
I have seen her in the tree
I don't even need to get down on my knees
[garbled followed by laugh]

Pardon god and mom, if what I'm sayin' isn't fair
Hey I'm looking to become, not the prayer but the prayer
And now I don't want to pray
[No] I say I don't wanna pray
[No] I don't wanna pray
Who don't wanna pray

{5:20 slight improv of the normal lines}Well it's alright to talk, long as you are walkin'
And it's alright to take, long as you give
But some say we forgiven and forgotten of our sins
Either way I know for sure, that we all will live again

Pardon god and mom, if what I'm sayin' isn't fair
Hey I'm looking to become, not the prayer but the prayer
And now I don't want to pray
[No] I say I don't wanna pray
[No] I don't wanna pray
Who don't wanna pray

(but still)
I love my god, god made love
I love my god, god made love
I love my god, god made good
I love my god, god made hate
I love my god, god made bad
I love my god, god made me

I thought this was really good. Give it a listen when you get the chance. http://videosift.com/video/Edward-Sharpe-The-Magnetic-Zeros-I-Dont-Wanna-Pray

Life is beauty through and through
Life is sunny, life is cool
Life is even easy too
But if my word is to be true
Life is something to behold
But if the truth is to be told
Let us not leave out any part
Do not fear, it's safe to say it here
You will not be called a weakling nor a fraud
For feeling the pain of the whole wide world
You want to help but can't help the feeling you cannot
And it's killing you while you're just trying to smile from your heart
So go on, say it, on the same knees you're praying
Yes, life is hard

Come celebrate
Life is hard
Come celebrate
Life is hard
Our life is all we are

Celebrate it in the sun, promenade it with everyone
Elevate it in a song
And I'll be there to play it, don't get me wrong
When I feel like dying and being gone
When life is hard
There's just one thing, let's not forget
Yes! life is it!
Life is it, life is it, it's where it's at
It's getting skinny, getting fat
It's falling deep into a love,
It's getting crushed just like a bug
Life there's no love, it's getting beat into the ground
It's getting lost and getting found,
To growing up and getting round
It's feeling silence, feeling sound
It's feeling lonely, feeling full
It's feeling oh so beautiful!
Yes!

Come celebrate
Life is hard
Come celebrate
Life is hard
Our life is all we are

@lantern53
look at you waxing all philisophical!

prosperity gospel is NOT an interpretation though.
it is a gross twisting of the gospels.
it is "the secret" wearing the garments of jesus but lacking any substance or depth.a poetically laced corruption,lightly sprinkled with scripture to appeal to the most incurious and base of us,in order to continue the flavor of the decade:greed is good.

fuck those charlatans and pray for those who have bought their twisted theosophy.

Edward Woodward, the guy who did the original Wicker Man, also. Let's pray this isn't as bad as that remake.

*promote

Aaaaand you sir or madman with your offering, are wholly without merit and I spew with confidence bereft of interesting banter on a plethora of issues as well. Oh, and your grammar is lousy.

What's YOUR country of origin pray-tell, I'll dump a tow-sack full of her problems on your bed after trick-or-treat and we'll pick-out which ones mommy said you're allowed eat with those ugly teeth god botcha..

at :58, is that a phone number for a "pay to pray" business? I meant to start one of those.

Lived in Ontario (28 years), Brisbane, Australia (5 years), Alberta (7 years), and now Texas (14 years).

Agree with pretty much with Boneremake on Alberta, gets more points than Ontario. My Australian experience was good, in both the city and rural (blew an eardrum due to infection in Longreach QLD at Xmas... the doctor was drunk when they wheeled him into emerg, but he was a gentle, caring drunk).

Small things in Ontario are manageable - anything requiring stuff beyond typical emergency room patching up in more rural locations (my definition - anywhere far enough from Toronto that you can't see the nighttime glow, so north of Newfenmarket sort of) is quite lacking (v. long wait times for things like weekly dialysis, MRI, even open MRI, GI tract scoping, ultrasounds, contrast X-rays etc). Parental unit #1 with diabetes requiring 3 times a week dialysis almost snuffed it as there were only 4 chairs in the unit 14 miles from home, got on the list and had to wait for someone to die before getting on the team. Finally snuffed it when they shut down these 4 chairs and the new unit was now a 90 mile round trip 3 times a week for man who could barely walk or see. Died from exhaustion, not diabetes. 2nd parental unit needs an MRI for some serious GI issues, can't keep food down, losing weight rapidly. Wait 4.5 months and we'll see if we can get you in. I'm having her measured for the box.

Having said that, the situation is easier to describe in Texas, the land of excess (excessive wealth and excessive poverty).

Good health insurance plan, preferably through employer with lots of employees = wait times for advanced procedures measured usually in minutes or hours, sometimes days, but not weeks or months. You get taken care of, and your birthing room at the local maternity ward looks like the Marriott (just Couryard though, so no mini-bar or microwave).

Mediocre or no health insurance plan = pray you never get sick enough to require more than what you can buy at the CVS or splint up by watching do-it-yourself first aid videos on youtube, because an unplanned night in the hospital or a trip to emerg in the short bus with swirly lights followed by admission can, for many, wipe them out or sure eat up Bobby's college fund. No exaggeration. I have insurance, but for a reference point, one night in hospital (elective) for a turbinectomy (google it people) including jello and ice cream came in at $14,635. Yes, one night. 24 hours. Do the math. An emergency room visit for a forearm cut requiring 13 stitches (and I didn't even bleed on their white sheets - just cut through the skin to the fat tissue) was billed at $2,300 bucks. Our new baby tried to exit the meatbag as a footling breach, so emergency C-sectioned him out, and one extra night in hospital (2 in total) - all up, billed at just shy of $24K. We now have 3 full service hospitals within 5 miles of our house, and a full service children's hospital in the same radius. And they just started building another. Somebody's making money. If you don't have insurance, or your insurance is shitty (huge deductibles, huge copays) you will eat much of these types of costs. Rule: cheaper to die than get sick.

Ontario and AB might have longer wait times, but even an 83 year old woman in a rural Ontario village with no pension, insurance, income or large stacks of cash can (eventually) get the health care she needs without spending unjustifiable amounts of money. Happy birthday mom.

My 2¢

so... praying for a tidal wave then?

Thank you @shinyblurry for the contribution. Even if I disagree on the basic message, it was interesting input that this discussion was IMO lacking so far. Now somebody's might post something dismissive now (I have to admit, asshole that I am, my fingers are actually itching in way trolls know too well) but I found that worth reading. Which brings me back to the point Mitchell made.
The issue is dialogue and how disruptive the selfrighteousness of those who found their definitive answer can be. We can argue semantics even further than already done here but it doesn't matter how gnostic or theistic one is. There is a silent majority consisting of various levels of belief and disbelief and at the fringes of both sides people tend to get loud, sometimes unbearably so.
What the screaming people at the edge like to do is to get bogged down into dogmas and discussions of detail but in the end both kind of extremists would like to force their worldviews on everyone else. I think it is certainly not acceptable to insist that people seeking solace in religion must be idiots who don't know how the world works. If a woman who just lost her child wants to tell herself that this is part of gods plan then I have no right to walk up to her and tell her she's full of shit. Even though I know this to be true. We all live in a world we're poorly equipped to understand and have to make sense of it somehow.
The problem starts once you force yourself onto somebody. The point I made before is that one side's extremists is assholes who walk up to grieving women and tell them their full of shit, the other side is people executing that woman for praying to the wrong god. It's easy for me to pick a side here.
However, most people aren't that extreme. Most people are more civil than that and I believe/know that a more civil and understanding approach is better. It necessary to push back against those who are harmful in executing their beliefs, be it Osama Bin Laden or Rick Santorum (Santorum he he) but everyone else is better dealt with in a respectful manner. Antagonism doesn't feed dialogue well.
That is why I resisted my urge to make fun of the deeply religious guy posting here. I really wanted to because I disagree with his worldview so strongly but all he did was stating his journey to where he now in his life and on top of that, he did it without telling anybody else here off. I would be the asshole if I would react like a Hitchens. I'd rather behave like a Tyson (not the rapey one). LIke most humans, I want to be one of the good guys. It's just not that easy to figure out how to be one.
In the end it all boils down to this (and several posts in this thread truly showed it): Why can't we be friends? Why can't we get along?
Because we're humans. That's how we roll.

So voodoovoovoo, may I offer-up an armchair analysis of why you feel the need to justify anything regarding your take on the subject?

In particular, this statement:

"I *am* opposed to every single depiction of a creator that humanity has come up with so far. petty, fear-based, eternal punishment for finite crimes, constant inconsistencies in their rules, ok with slavery, and absolutely shitty morals."

I would surmise from this opener, that you may resemble a victim of the fallacy contained in this statement considering your penchant for using this website as a platform to recruit similar folks of your ilk to validate your current position within this chaotic world, any individual's perception of the same resembling a constant flux and ever-changing.

Might I know where to attend services and pay tithes to afford myself of the bounty of wisdom to be derived form your observations disguised as a statement of purpose?

Church of the Videosift perhaps??

Already a member having paid my dues thank you. I'm sure you have a bar down the street from your flat and a certainty exists there that they would appreciate you drinking alone less often and perhaps helping with the gas bill.

My advice?? Become a hack writer and create your own weekly gathering of like-minded patrons who might afford you the luxury of the proselytizing quest you're compelled to pursue here.

Jesus the Nazarene spoke of a disease regarding a similar affliction quite simply and eloquently, in a similar sentiment...

"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward."-Matthew 6:5

I'm sorry if I'm a dick about your current take on why you're here feeling you have to explain yourself, but from what you've described you simply are at this point in your experience, not able to conjure a god or system that does not fit into the models you have created for yourself. Kinna like my stance that anything created by men for other men is doomed to fail and already sucks.

Morality? Often relative to your dealings with those of opinions other than your own...

Make your own way, and you become the absurd creator-god perhaps?? Stranger shit has happened after all, over, and over, and over until the cessation of observation.

Hi voodooV..sorry it took me so long to reply.

you're committing another logical fallacy here. Argument from ignorance. just because you can't think of any other reason for morality doesn't prove god did it.

The fallacy you mentioned doesn't apply. The argument isn't for Gods existence, the argument is that atheism is incoherent because it has no foundation for morality, among other reasons. Ravi asked the question, without God what are the Ontic referrants for reality?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontic

To answer your question though. Survival...pure survival is pretty much the foundation of morality. what behavior ensures a long, prosperous and happy life? That's your morality right there. And it's all based on logic and reason, not an imaginary god.

is it better to be a dick to someone or is it better to work with other people. hrm...which ensures a higher probability of success in your endeavors.

is better in the long run to help or to hurt. Which ensures a greater likelyhood that people will be willing to help YOU out when you need it.

virtually everything that we consider moral today is the evolution (gasp) of instinctual rules we've learned over the millions (not thousands) of years that ensure a longer, happier life.

What you're talking about is pragmatism, which is to say that if it works then it is the best way to do things. Yet plenty of people have led long, prosperous and happy lives by exploiting other people for their gain. That's what works for them, so why shouldn't I emulate that standard of behavior instead of being self-sacrificing? Some of the most successful people who have ever lived got there by being terrible human beings. Basically, your standard of survival isn't about what is right, but what is right for me and that is entirely arbitrary. It also is an incoherent standard for morality.

Which is why only two of your commandments still hold up as secular laws.

I forget where I learned this but even biblical morality can be traced back to rules that made sense, at the time, that ensured survival. I think it has been shown that many of the biblical rules involving not eating certain foods can be traced back to diseases or some other logical reason, but hey, we didn't have an understanding of these pesky little things called bacteria and microorganisms back then so when you ate a certain food and died, that wasn't science, it was your imaginary sky god who was angry with you.

What's really interesting about that is that Moses was educated as an Egyptian prince, which was the most advanced country in the world at the time. He would have certainly been exposed to their medical knowledge, but you won't find a shred of that in the bible. The Egyptians were doing things like applying dung to peoples wounds, whereas the Laws of Moses detailed procedures for disease control, like hand washing and quarantine procedures, as well as public sanitation, and dietary laws which prevented the spread of parasites. They were thousands of years ahead of their time; we only started washing our hands to control disease in the past 200 years.

Even your fear and hatred of homosexuality and abortion can be easily explained by survival. When your village only numbered in the hundreds or maybe thousands and simple diseases and winters wiped out LOTS of people, discouraging homosexuality and abortion is actually a pretty good idea when the survival of your species is at stake. But when you've got advanced medicine and we've got the whole food and shelter thing dealt with and our population is now 7 billion. the whole "be fruitful and multiply" thing just isn't necessary anymore. In fact, it's becoming a problem. and Once again, survival will dictate our morality. If we do nothing to combat overpopulation and resources become an issue, I guarantee you that large families will eventually have a negative stigma attached to them until the situation is resolved.

You're talking to a former agnostic who once approved of homosexuality and abortion. I am not afraid of it, and I don't hate the people doing it. This is a clash of presuppositions; if there isn't a God then I couldn't give you an absolute reason why people cannot have homosexual relationships or murder their unborn children. If we're all just glorified apes contending for limited resources, then in that paradigm it may be necessary to cull the herd. I think the appropriate response though to someone contending we should eliminate vast swaths of the human populace to save the planet is, "you first".

But God is in control and this is His planet, and since He is still creating human beings, He will provide the resources to take care of them. It's the iniquity of mankind which is limiting the resources when the truth is that we have way more than enough to take care of everyone. Take for example the fact that over 30 thousand people starve to death every day. Is that because we don't have enough food? Actually, we have more than enough food yet we waste about 1/3 of the world food supply every year. The gross world product in 2012 was over 84 trillion dollars, more than enough to feed, clothe, house and vaccinate every single person on the planet. Those people die not because there isn't enough, but because the wickedness of man.

Don't ask me though, ask an anthropologist or sociologist. They've been studying this stuff for decades. I'm sure you could even find an anthropologist/sociologist that believes in god and they'd still say the same thing. our understanding of reality changes....as does morality. no one takes seriously the old biblical rules about stoning unruly kids, working the sabbath, and wearing clothing of two types of fabric anymore. So why should we listen other outdated biblical rules that don't apply anymore. As countless others of sifters have already informed you, you have the burden of proof and you haven't met it yet.

Call me when someone discovers a disease or some other problem that arises when you mix two fabrics and we'll revisit those rules k?

God has three kinds of laws, moral civil and cermonial. The rules you're referring to were civil and ceremonial laws for Israel and not for the rest of the world. They have no application today because they were connected to the Old Covenant God had with Israel. God has a New Covenant with the whole world that doesn't include those laws. The moral laws of God do not change with time, or ever. And although we fancy ourselves as more enlightened today, the reality of the world we live in tells us that human nature hasn't changed one bit. Human nature is every bit as ugly and self serving as it always has been. If you peel back the thin veneer of civility you will find a boiling pot of iniquity.

Stop committing basic logical fallacies and you might learn this stuff for yourself You haven't ever said anything that isn't easily invalidated by a simple logical fallacy or hasn't already been debunked long ago.

It's easy to speak in generalities; if I have committed a logical fallacy, then specifically point it out. The one that you detailed earlier did not apply.

Do you watch the Atheist Experience videos Shiny? because every time I watch one of the videos and listened to the same old tired theist "arguments" over and over again. I'm always reminded of you because you just aren't saying anything new. If you're serious about understanding why your ideas just don't pan out and you're not just trolling, you should seriously watch those.

I've watched the show, and again, I was a lifelong agnostic before becoming a Christian. I was pretty far left and would have probably fit in well with the lot of you not too many years ago. So, this is all to say that I understand where you're coming from and why you think and believe the way you do, because I used to think and believe in the same ways. Your mindset isn't a mystery to me. What I've learned about it is that God has to reveal Himself to a person before they will know anything about Him. Everyone gets some revelation and it is up to them to follow it. I received the revelation that there is a God and I pursued that for many years until He revealed Himself to me through His Son Jesus Christ. He has revealed Himself to you and everyone else on this website in some form or fashion. You would be shocked to hear some of the revelation people have received and turned away from, or rationalized away later. Statistics show that 10 percent of self professing atheists pray, and that is because they are unable to within themselves completely deny the revelation that they have received. I guarantee you there are atheists on this board who wrestle with all of this but since it isn't something atheists talk about (or would admit to publicly) you would never know it, that you're all keeping a lid on the truth.