@Yogi Way to miss the point. I wasn't comparing cars and guns, I was comparing laws regulating cars and guns. That's all I'm going to say to you. You've already told me in another discussion that you're going to refuse any evidence that doesn't agree with your narrow minded beliefs, so having a discussion with you is pointless.

@RedSky

1) I'm not implying that the US is more violent. I already pointed out that the US has lower violent crime rates than the US and UK despite the higher murder rate.


2) I'd say people in rural areas are most likely own guns for hunting and also self defense as there are no police patrols out in the country.

I also wouldn't blame the availability of guns to criminals on gun enthusiasts. Criminals generally don't legally buy their guns. One way to cut down on illegall gun sales is to charge the sellers as accomplices to the crimes committed with the weapons they sell illegally.


3) Maybe punishment was not the right word I should have chosen. My point is that to cut down on driving fatalities, the laws enacted didn't put any inconveniences on responsible drivers.

Your back of the envelope calculation isn't quite so clear cut. Sam Harris discusses this in his article.

It is also worth noting that relatively gun-free countries are not as peaceful as many think. Here are some recent crime data comparing the U.S., the U.K., Australia, and Sweden. Although the U.S. has a higher rate of homicide, the problem of assaults in these other countries is much worse...

So, while the U.S. has many more murders, the U.K., Australia, and Sweden have much higher levels of assault. One might think that having a few more murders per 100,000 persons each year is still much worse than having many hundreds more assaults. Perhaps it is. (One could also argue, as several readers have, that differences in proportion are all we should care about.) But there should be no doubt that the term “assault” often conceals some extraordinary instances of physical and psychological suffering.

It's possible that the reason the US has lower assault, robbery and rape is that armed citizens are able to defend themselves from such crimes.

I'm seeing a lot of people saying the US should look to the UK and Australia on how to handle gun control. Both UK and Australia already had low murder and violent crime rates at the time of their "bans." After Australia's National Firearms Act and forced gun buyback, homicide fell by 9%, but assault went up 40% and rape went up 20%. In the years before the NFA, homicides had been on a steady decline, and a 2003 study published by the Brookings Institution, found the NFA's impact on homicide was "relatively small."

After the UK's "gun ban" in 1997, gun crime actually increased [1] [2]. Gun crimes in 1997-1998 were 2,648. The Office for National Statistics shows that 5,507 firearm offenses were reported 2011-2012.


4) Yes cars do provide a benefit to society. Their regulation and restrictions are reasonable, and I already said I'm not opposed to any reasonable gun laws. But cars are the leading cause of accidental death each year. There are lots of things that can be done to make cars and drivers safer. Cars could be limited to 70 MPH. The national speed limit on highways is 70 MPH, why do you need a car capable of going faster? Cars can be fitted with a GPS and a "black box" that records your driving activities. Each year when you renew your inspection, the black box data is downloaded and analyzed. If it's discovered you've broken any traffic laws, you will be fined, and if it's determined you aren't a safe driver, your license is revoked. Prohibit personal sales of vehicles between individuals, because you can't know if the person your selling to is a safe driver or if their license is valid (see below about the "gun show exemption"). Sounds crazy, but those aren't nearly as bad as some of the things being proposed for new gun laws.

I doubt any of those would be acceptable to the majority of drivers, but it would make driving safer and save lives.

As for your suggestions "not yet tried."

- We already have rigorous background checks for purchasing firearms. They're done by the FBI's NICS, I don't know how it can be more rigorous.
- There is no "gun show exemption" or "loophole," that is more media buzzword BS. Private sale and transfer of anything (not just firearms) can not regulated by congress. It's another constitutional issue dealing with the regulation of commerce. It is still illegal for a person to sell a firearm to someone that they have reason to believe may not be legally able to own one. This is another issue that I'm not opposed to fixing though. It could be as simple as requiring the transaction to be witnessed by a licensed gun dealer and perform a background check.
- Assault weapons are already restricted. Real assault weapons that is, not what the media and lawmakers keep calling assault weapons. Once again I ask, why such fuss over the weapon type least used in crime? These "assault weapons" are expensive to acquire, and most criminals go for cheap, small caliber, concealable pistols and revolvers. [source] For more on what an assault weapon is and their use in crime, just head on over to this Wikipedia page.
- Restricting ammunition would be something that would effect responsible gun owners and likely have little effect on crime. Responsible gun owners are the ones that buy more ammo, go to gun ranges and practice.


5) You mean the steadily high murder rate that has been steadily declining for over two decades, by 50% since 1992? [source]

This video contains disingenuous information. Those statistics are completely false.

@chingalera It's working a lot better than the current USA situation. Here's a few legitimate facts relating to the content in that video.

1. You can still buy guns (pistols, rifles, shotguns), just not the ridiculously unjustified mass human slaying variants.
2. It's better controlled with systems setup to decrease the chance of consistently unstable minds getting hold of guns of any type.
3. Gun homicides were increasing leading up to the gun control (1996), from that peak to now, it's about a 59% drop.
4. 1996-2006 about 65% drop in gun suicides.
5. Robberies involving guns dropped significantly.
6. There was no increase in home invasions.
7. In the 10 years leading up to the gun control there were 11 mass shootings.. since gun control went into affect, there have been 0.

Homicide weapon statistics (image): Guns vs Knives from 1989/90 to 2006/7
Quick answer: 50% drop for guns, 30% rise for knives
http://aic.gov.au/statistics/homicide/weapon.html

"A 2011 letter published in the British Medical Journal by Simon Chapman, a professor of public health from the University of Sydney, observed that the U.S. had 14.4 times the population of Australia but 141 times as as many deaths from firearms in 2008 as Australia and 238 times the rate of firearms-related homicide."
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/talking-back/2012/12/20/gun-control-searching-down-under-for-change-to-believe-in/
If the current ratio's are even remotely similar to this quote, then Americans can't say jack about the Australian statistics.

@charliem Good links mate.

Upvote for the 'Lies' tag.

What a load of bias rubbish. Very selective quoting. The ban on fox hunting was nothing to do with human rights, but rather animal cruelty. Foxes can still be hunted, with a gun of all things. You're just not allowed to let your dogs maul them to death because that's cruel. So what they're apparently campaigning against is a load of rubbish, hunting with guns is still legal.

Oh, and so is pistol shooting - you just have to keep your gun at a gun club. The only thing that's illegal is keeping your gun at home.

As for Tony Martin, he's a nutjob. Tony Martin had his gun license revoked in 1994 because he shot at someone who was stealing his apples. Ok, so the guy was on his land and stealing fruit, but it's OK to shoot them? No. No it's not.

There are a lot of inconsistencies in his story of the incident. He claimed to have shot from the stairs having been woken by the break in. He didn't, he was shown to have shot from a downstairs doorway. He was lying in wait for them and ambushed them. He shot the kid that broke in in the back as he was trying to escape.

I'm pretty sure in America the feeling is just that the kid had it coming, he shouldn't have been there. I don't buy into that at all.

Homicide with a gun in the UK: 0.07 per 100,000

Homicide with a gun in the US: 2.97 per 100,000

US rate is more than forty times that of the UK. Which country has broken gun laws? The simple facts are that I'm safer in the UK without a gun than I am in the states with a gun.

Figures found here.

Are you implying I drive a Harley? Otherwise I'd prefer you call me queer, son. Virginia Tech was the most deadly shooting in US history. He used pistols with standard clip sizes. There are also these things called bombs, should we ban fertilizer?

Please define tragedy. Statistically speaking, tragedies of these sorts are prevented by doing absolutely nothing at all. Statistically speaking... they don't happen. It's a couple of sad things that happened and everything, but it doesn't compare to actual problems, you know... like accidents.

Yea like @zeoverlord said: Those are not reloadable like the RPG-7 but are one shot weapons where you then just dump the tube after shooting it once. Basically someone handed in a couple of already fired AT4 tubes. They are originally Swedish made and the US has adopted them as they are far superior to the weaker LAW so they have probably been brought home by a soldier who have fired them in training or perhaps even in one of the wars.

The Swedish name is Pansarskott m/86 but the US renamed them to AT4.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AT4

Oh I almost forgot that there are reloadable AT4s as well but they have been modified to fire 9mm pistol tracer rounds for target practice... cheaper and safer than the real deal...

Is it so wrong?? To let the herd cull itself ?? Johnny can't use his hammer correctly so he beat himself in the face and needs stiches. Ban Hammers.
Billy slipped on dish soap in his kitchen wearing defective non-slip soles, ban those, we're too fucking stupid to walk around in our own ki9tchen.
Little Timmy threw a rock and it entered the man's brain through his temple. BAN ROCKS.

This argument is as sound as any that have spewed from all on this subject with a fear of the unknown and a severe lack of basic motor skills and critical thinking-

It is wrong to rely on what is reported and what is not reported by news media, local blotters, etc. to shape one's understanding of the constitution and the history of the United States. YOU PEOPLE WATCH TOO MUCH FUCKING TELEVISION (in whatever country you're in) AND KNWO DICK ABOUT RECENT HISTORY, MUCH LESS ANCIENT.!! The fact that this shit is even up for vote, retooling, or added restrictions boggles, man. Short of a constitutional amendment, the shit reads clearly and plainly in the 2nd and 4rth-If you amend the 2nd you have fucked the thing up, which will consequently, screw the 4rth.

More laws for idiots and imbeciles, less for the operations managers of a realistic unfolding of our immediate future.

A fastidious child with an hour of training and two of practice could kill 100 people with a .22 pistol before the police come or someone wrestles her to the ground, be it school, mall, fast-food joint or post-office line.

Fuck, give morons a goddamn tattoo so we know who to keep sharpened toothbrushes away from

This happens with ?pistol shrimp? right?

I bet you if you ask these airhead celebs to stop using bodyguards that carried guns they'd laugh in your face. And I know Beyonce's guards carry pistols since I worked stage security at one of her concerts in Atlanta couple times.

I own 2 assault rifles, and I'll be dead before they are taken away.

I haven't handled a pistol since 1983 in boot camp. All I need to do in Oregon to get a CCW is watch a video online, take an online test, pay to download the certificate, and take the certificate to the Sheriff's office for my permit. I wouldn't want me carrying a gun in public, but I could if I wanted to, with virtually no experience or training. Now, guns are not my thing. I don't want one. I'm relatively sane, but if I wasn't, if the world was cruel and oppressive and needed a dark knight, getting a CCW would be just as easy.

This video shows simply and clearly that things very often don't go as you plan when you find yourself in a very stressful and scary situation, and that the training required to perform spontaneously and correctly in such situations must be ongoing, something the vast, vast majority of CCW's would be unable or unwilling to do. Would they have performed better had the "drill" happened when they were told it would happen? Maybe, but that isn't how things unfold in RL now, is it? Sometimes it's an elementary school classroom full of six and seven year-olds, or with smoke bombs in a movie theater, or outside the food court at a mall, or even, like this video, in a lecture hall at a school.

So drop the paranoid, ulterior-motive bullshit. "Dubious"? You sound like a child.

On Oct. 1, 1997, Luke Woodham, 16, part of a satanic cult, stabbed and bludgeoned his mother before driving her car to Pearl High School in Pearl, Miss., where he shot dead two students and wounded seven others with a rifle he made no attempt to conceal. He then got back into his mother’s car and planned to go to Pearl Junior High School to kill some more. But assistant principal Joel Myrick retrieved a .45-caliber pistol from the glove compartment of his truck and subdued Woodham.

On Jan. 16, 2002, Peter Odighizuwa, 43, of Nigeria, went to the Appalachian School of Law campus in Virginia with a handgun and killed three and wounded three others. At the sound of gunfire, two other students – both police officers – retrieved guns from their cars. Meanwhile, another police officer and former Marine jumped Odighizuwa and disarmed him by the time the other officers got to the scene.

On Aug. 23, 1995, a band of crack cocaine addicts entered a store in Muskegon, Mich., with a plan to kill everyone and steal enough cash and jewelry to feed their habit. One member of the gang shot store owner Clare Cooper in the back four times. He still managed to grab his shotgun and fire on the gang as they fled. They were all apprehended.

On Dec. 9, 2007, a 24-year-old gunman named Matthew Murray launched an attack on the congregants of the New Life Church in Colorado Springs that left two victims dead. A former police officer, Jeanne Assam, a member of the security team for the church, shot Murray 10 times, killing him, as he was shooting at her. Murray had killed four others at a church 70 miles away earlier in the day.

On July 24, 2012, Richard Gable Stevens rented a rifle at a shooting range in Santa Clara, Calif., and herded three employees out the door, saying he intended to kill them. One of the employees, however, was carrying a .45-caliber handgun and shot the assailant.

On Dec. 17, 1991, two men armed with stolen pistols herded 20 customers and employees of a Shoney’s restaurant in Anniston, Ala., into a walk-in refrigerator and locked it so they could rob the establishment. However, one customer was armed with a .45-caliber handgun hidden under a table. He shot one of the gunmen dead. The other robber, who was holding the manager of the restaurant at gunpoint, began firing at the customer. But he was wounded critically by return fire, ending the incident.

On July 13, 2009, an armed man entered the Golden Food Market in south Richmond, shooting and wounding a clerk while firing at store patrons. He was shot by another customer who had a concealed-carry permit, likely saving the lives of eight other people in the store.

On July 29, 2012, Charles Conner shot and killed two people and their dogs at the Peach Tree RV park in Early, Texas. Vic Stacy got a call from one of the neighbors, got his .357 magnum and shot Conner as he fired upon the first police officer to arrive at the scene. Stacy was credited with saving the life of the officer.

The truth is that every single day mass murders are averted by armed civilian

Yet, every time there is a horrendous slaughter like we saw at the Sandy Hook Elementary School, there is a knee-jerk outcry for stricter control of guns.

taken from http://www.wnd.com/2012/12/how-to-stop-the-slaughter-of-the-innocents/#oA9kiFClUvLJ8gIK.99

I like how it fits into a pouch half its size, that's what you get when you incorporate the power of typhoons in a pistol, bravo.

I have seen singing bird pistols; my life is now complete.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)

*related=http://videosift.com/video/Singing-Bird-Pistols

Singing Bird Pistols has been added as a related post - related requested by dag.

Loved the video, but I wouldn't recommend dealing in RL.

Had two friends who were into it college. One kept smoking his own supply to the point where he not only was losing money, but eventually got kicked out of school because he was always too wasted to go to class.

The other guy gave up dealing when a deal went bad and the "clients" pulled out 9mm handguns, forced him into the bathroom, and pistol-whipped him until he gave up both his stash and where the money was. While lying on the cold tile bathroom floor with a gun to the back of his head, he decided the money from dealing wasn't worth the associated risks.