"Khrushchev was rational, Castro was rational..."

Saddam wasn't rational. Bin Landen isn't rational. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad isn't rational. How do we reason and negotiate with these people? Is it possible?

That's a simplistic argument to make, that Russians 'tried' democracy and it failed. The fact is that Russian's never got to experience democracy at all, with the coming of Yeltsin into power the centralized market system was thrown out overnight for a capitalist economy, workers were issued shares for the companies they worked in, the Russian currency collapsed, pensions were stopped, all due to western economists (who arrived in droves) believing that the spirit of entrepreneurship would suddenly infect the souls of people who lived under communist rule for over 60 years.

But what happened was that some individuals within that system started buying out the shares from the workers who needed to sustain themselves at that point, seizing massive control of various industries, thus creating the oligarchs. The same people who now own various football clubs in the UK.

The people as a whole felt robbed, they blamed democracy for that, failing to see how the economic reforms worked against them, instead of blaming the transition many more people assumed it was democracy that was at fault. What should have been a long term phased switch into a market economy like the one seen with China was rushed within the space of a few years, incomes and welfare of course fell. Look at how gradually China introduced free market zones, by cordoning them off to small regions, then allowed foreign direct investment there. The whole motto of their capital development was "import 1st product, assemble 2nd product, manufacture 3rd product".

The current Putin government is full of KGB cronies who have muscled their way into acquisition of the most important sectors of the economy, most significant of them being the oil sector, which is wholly responsible for the economic boom in Russia. The war in Iraq and possible war with Iran has seen the Oil price soar year on year since 2000 and Putin's coming into power and the economic boom in Russia, that's not coincidental. This is why Putin visited Iran, instability in the Middle East sustains the high oil price and Russia's development.

Putin did give something to the Russians, and that is pride in their nation, a seeming return to the heyday of the Soviet Union with it's planting of flags in the Arctic, stance against the American government and nuclear armed patrols that hark back to the Cold War era. But it also came with government control of oil resources, elimination of civil rights, elimination of freedom of press, state control of media, needless military expansionism, Byzantine rule of government, political oppression through assassination of those who oppose the government.

Just this past month he imposed a collective freeze on food prices until after the elections sometime in January, this was done so as to keep the appearance to Russia's poor that the economy was doing well when in reality food prices across the world are rising, once elections are over they can remove the freeze.

A good article on "Why Putin Wins" is Sergei Kovalev's article , who gives a realistic breakdown of Russia as it is now and what is its future. As Scott Horton says in "What Putin Wants":

The challenge will be for America more than for Russia. In America, there is still a hope that the democratic process can work to effect a rollback of creeping authoritarianism and a restoration of the beacon of hope that the land once held up to the world. In Russia, all sight of that beacon is lost.

Your argument that non-democratic states like Kingdom of Saudi Arabia offer a higher standard of living is ridiculous, most of the population lives in poverty as the wealth is concentrated in the Royal family and even then only through the continual oil production, almost everything it produces is sustain through government subsidization, much more of its products are simply imported. Jordan differs because they possesses a technocrat King who believes in development, that doesn't mean tomorrow a tyrant will take power.

And am sorry but slave like hours on minimal wage for 90% of the population making Nike shoes does not translate into a higher standard living for the Chinese as a whole, not to mention that development is confined to the coastal areas, while inland China lives in poverty due to lack of investment and encroaching desert taking away valuable agricultural land. China possess an incredible amount of income disparity, firms are still mainly controlled by the Chinese government. It is true that there is slowly an emergence of a middle class, that is being educated abroad and not going back to mainland China, because opportunities in the west are much better.

The argument that ANY government policy has a potential to achieve strong economy is simplistic, the market system works because various agents start to develop products and services to supply a demand of other agents. That requires freedom of enterprise, the ability to freely form business solutions. That means reform laws that actively invite business activities to take place. Communism or centralized market economy does not lead to a strong economy because the demand and supply signals do not exist, the government decides what is important to produce and does it. It leads to a mis balance and a concentration of power in the hands of the few, this is why the USSR failed, and why China started to put in place free market reforms in the 80s. States in the Middle East still sustain their perverse development through oil money, without which all of them would quite realistically fail, as they are overly reliant on foreign labor and are not actively developing their skilled labor force, not to mention the sheer amount of corruption that occurs between those in high office and citizens.

Your mention of a few democratic states that are in poor shapes is simplistic again, they are not failures of democracy but rather a lack of proper reforms and rule. Brazil is doing rather well now actually even though government corruption is still rife as is political instability. Nepal is constitutional monarchy, where the King has assumed emergency powers and holds all executive power so I have no idea why you lumped it in there. Albania on the other hand has had successive government instability with the neighboring war, socialist, democratic governments in succession, the economy however is steadily developing even though stability has been hard to attain since 1990.

The idea behind democracy is that citizens can have a say in where their nation is heading, being elected to government doesn't make saints out of people where they suddenly selflessly try to achieve economy development for the people as a whole. The African nations where strong armed authoritative ruler one after the other prove this, as does Hugo Chavez who after winning the trust of the poor is now concentrating all executive power under his own control, as does Iran where Mahmoud's promises to the poor for oil revenue sharing amounted to nothing but continuous tensions and sanctions from the west.

I think you need to further broaden your understanding of the complexities of government rule and policy with regards to economic development as they are rather basic right now.

I hope you're not serious.

In reply to this comment by eric3579:
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad - I cant help but like this guy. He cant be any worse than our president.

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad - I cant help but like this guy. He cant be any worse than our president.

So Mahmoud Ahmadinejad doesn't believe in gay people, so what. Unlinke Bush he didnt KILL A MILLION CIVILIANS FOR PROFIT. Jeez people get your head out of your ass!

"We don't have homosexuals like in your country, because we won't fellate other man, but we may be coerced into holding his penis until the swelling goes down. But that's totally different! Not gay!"

-- Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

"Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's bigotted statement that there are no homosexuals in Iran derived from his rightwing religious commitments. What he said is very serious. He erased gays right out of existence. The ultimate in denying people their rights is to deny they even exist (the nonexistent obviously have no rights.) There could be a debate over whether the gay lifestyle exists in Muslim countries, as a matter of identity politics, of course, but Ahmadinejad is not that sophisticated. He was saying that all Iranians are straight. Of course, gays are punished very severely in Iran, in reality. (Source)

I’m not sure how fluent Cole’s Persian is, but I tend to trust most of his interpretations regarding the Middle East.

Just an FYI.

I do agree that as serious as this charge is, it is important to weigh the whole of what Ahmadinejad was saying, and that is difficult to do when left to the devices of American mainstream media.

I disagree with the man on several points however I must say that it takes a certain of person to be able to go forth and make his case to the American people and actually answer questions posed to him, with the visit to Columbia, the interview on TV and his speech in the UN.

I thought the introduction by Lee Bollinger, the university president of Columbia was appalling, calling him a "petty and cruel dictator" when the University itself invited Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to speak. To which he replied:

"In Iran, tradition requires when you invite a person to be a speaker, we actually respect our students enough to allow them to make their own judgment, and don’t think it’s necessary before the speech is even given to come in with a series of complaints to provide vaccination to the students and faculty."

While we sit and laugh at his lunacy regarding gay people, I am glad we are allowed to make our own judgments rather then sitting here and reading the constant war drumming about a military strike against Iran which sounds so much like the fear mongering and lies fed to us in the run up to Iraq.

The most important thing is that he reiterated that Iran is pursuing peaceful nuclear power acquisition, a point that is supported by the IAEA. Yet in the West we have constant allusion that they are researching nuclear weapons or attacking US forces covertly. The US has branded the Iran Republican guard as a terrorist organization, the fleet is in the Persian gulf. It's like the US Administration is just itching for an excuse to expand the war into Iran.

I mean don't take my word for it. Heres the American Thinker:

"Now for the good news. All the damaging consequences of all the blunders the President has committed to date in Iraq are reversible in 48- to 72-hours - the time it will take to destroy Iran's fragile nuclear supply chain from the air. And since the job gets done using mostly stand-off weapons and stealth bombers, not one American soldier, sailor or airman need suffer as much as a bruised foot.

Let's look downstream the day after and observe how the world has changed.

First and foremost, there's this prospective fait accompli -- and it changes everything. The Iranians are no longer a nuclear threat, and won't be again for at least another decade, and even that assumes the strategic and diplomatic situation reverts to the status quo ante and they'll just be able to pick up and rebuild as they would after an earthquake. Not possible.

Next, the Iranians would do nothing -- bupkes. They don't attack Israel, they don't choke off the world's oil supply, they do not send hit squads to the United States, there is no "war" in the conventional sense of attack counterattack. Iran already has its hands full without inviting more trouble. Its leaders would be reeling from the initial US attack and they would know our forces are in position to strike again if Iran provokes us or our allies. They would stand before mankind with their pants around their ankles, dazed, bleeding, crying, reduced to bloviating from mosques in Teheran and pounding their fists on desks at the UN. The lifelines they throw to the Iraqi insurgents, Hezbollah and Syria would begin to dry up, as would the lifelines the double-dealing Europeans have been throwing to Iran. Maybe the Mullahs would lose control.

Miracles would be seen here at home. Democratic politicians are dumbstruck, silent for a week. With one swing of his mighty bat, the President has hit a dramatic walk-off homerun. He goes from goat to national hero overnight. The elections in November are a formality. Republicans keep the White House and recapture both houses of Congress. Hillary is elected president - of the Chappaqua PTA.

[...]

Am I dreaming? I don't think so. Being too sensible is probably more like it. In any event, I am not creating anything original here. Combine Bush's recent statements with those of the President of France and it's not hard to see where this is heading. Mr. Bush still has time to put America back on the offensive again. But with only a little more than a year left in his term he has no time to lose. Rarely does history provide a failed wartime leader with such a golden opportunity for salvation.

Carpe diem, Mr. President. The chicken pita is on me."

I mean WTF?

oh and GMA's Diane Sawyer??? This bitch needs her ass slapped, trying to make Mahmoud Ahmadinejad
into a kind-old uncle.....bitch, please, join one of his harems, and get yer ass of the TV-yer a media slut.

Hey robin32....thanks for inspiring a tirade, I love to remind all the folks regularly, who and what they allow to breathe the common air.

If humans had a clue, they would collectively call for these people's immediate assassinations. That's one thing me and Pat Robinson can agree upon.

upvote for, Eisenstein.....Vlad was sure a prick, wasn't he?

Kim Jung Il...Dangerous, sociopath, Prick.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad ? Cocksucker, Idiot, dangerous, killer.
King Abdullah? Asshole, enabler.
Bashar al-Assad? Coward,cocksucker, killer.
Hugo Chavez? Coward, president-wannabe, asshole, killer.
King Fahd?-Evil cocksucker, Satan would be proud-
Than Shwe of Burma-evil midget dick.
Saparmurad Niyazov of Turkmenistan? Narcissist, asshole, killer.
Muammar Gaddafi?-dangerous little camel-lover.
(really has a nice pool for his cammies, though)
Alexander Lukashenko of Belarus?-Stalin-lover, carbuncle, human waste.
G.W.Bush-Dangerous, connected, from a family of privileged, pricks and assholes.

Please pray for their immediate deaths.

This Video is from Feb 2007

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=2868077&page=1

"Feb. 12, 2007 — In an exclusive interview with ABC's Diane Sawyer, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad refused to address accusations that his country was supplying weapons to insurgents in Iraq, saying instead that Iran asked for peace and was against conflict of any kind."

Oh please azamat, get real. Don't you think it might be nice to open your mind oh I don't know, ||<--that much? That's why people need to see this, to disabuse themselves of the one dimensional views of this place that they so commonly have. Guess what, I'M GAY TOO. I know of the hangings of Mahmoud Asgari and Ayaz Marhoni, I know, it's gut wrenching, maddening even. But these people are not some monolithic religious force of evil. They're people, many and varied, with faults and curiousness and love just the same as everyone else and you owe it to yourself to admit such.

Thanks gwaan, and agreed: Iran at large is not the bogeyman, though their administration is something to keep an eye on.
I think Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is a wingnut and his anti-PR moves of hosting a holocaust denier conference etc are beyond my comprehension. His attitude towards Israel should be something of a concern. Regardless, to make the country suffer a military attack now----at once brutal, punitive and fruitless (the US could never occupy and control)-----would be a massive mistake on a number of levels. At the very least: goodbye Strait of Hormuz, hello world oil crisis.

Additionally, the amount of hate I'm seeing in local newspaper forums directed towards the Iranian people at large is staggering and disheartening ("bomb them back to the stone age", "Iran would make a nice parking lot", etc).

Goebbels would have been proud.

This upvotes for banishing the media from the remainder of the operation in Iraq, for wrapping it up by May 07' with a new and improved agenda...


Airstrikes on the palace of Kim Il, and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, simultaneously, without prior notice, on the same day, ala Israeli air Force Method, June 7, 1981, as a preventative measure to more bullshit television editorializing, and any more souls being stolen, damaged, or otherwise manipulated ny assholes.....

The issue is: Common Sense should dictate which countries get a house-cleaning. Destroy all assholes who infect the human mind with their unilateral bullshit!!

Now, can we talk about what YOUR country is doing about dictators and murderers with power????? Wish the U.S, was doing more to insure peace for the future, but, unfortunately, we have a bunch of assholes running things here, too!!

Your job as a US citizen, is to pick the next asshole in 08'.....a1 a2 a3 a4 a5 etc.....

Now that Sogoddamn Insane is gone, wouldn't it be tits, if we would excise two more Human schizms from the Big Blue Mole, KiM Jong and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, and do so with such swift and righteous spectacle, with complete disregard for the reactions from th'nay-sayers?
Makes no since to most sane folk, that these two should continue to breathe the same air, or pollute one more mind, and distract us from progress as humans, one more millisecond.....Tell China to kiss our asses when they bitch, Russia can suck Uncle Sams cock, and France can just piss the fuck off....The United Nations should be dressed in clown suits and made to march seven times around Manhattan, should they offer anything but praise. Choose a surgical black op, or a nuke down the throat that we all find out about, AFTER these diseased, throwbacks are eradicated.
In choggies' perfect world, problems are solved, when they are tiny, and large ones are burned, the ashes to be sifted through later, for salvagable material.....
The alternatives include, the bull shit we engage in now, and another generation of programmed, imprinted, hate, in the form of tots whose souls are being stolen from them, at birth.
Allah is a cocksucker, belonging to a large segment of unfortunates, who are just not up to speed with the program of what it means to "Be Here Now"!
"Oh just let them all believe what they want to" may just prove to be the most destrutive form of denial we indulge in. Wherever a lie or illusion is embraced, every action, sentiment, and expression, is tainted with the original lie, and in the end, destruction.
(singing) America, "Fuck Yeah", ....
Oh, and when they die, we must make public spectacle of them, for whomever would rise up to take their place. Prefer doused in petrol, set alight, then catapulted into one of the still-standing sections of the Berlin Wall, or fuck it, That flat, smooth curved United Nations Building.