All is talking about gun regulations, or lack there of for this terrible event.


Guns are not the root cause.

Muslim religion is the root cause for this mess.

Yahweh has NEVER given evidence of his existence. No more so than any other god anyhow. They all answer prayer equally and randomly well. They all claim to have made the universe/world, they all claim to be the true one... Near death experiences differ by culture expectations of that culture and don't all conform to the supposed Christian expectation... he has done nothing to make himself stand out from the rest of the gods that Christians dismiss. Heck, I've never seen a Frost Giant or evidence they ever existed, so clearly Odin has one up on Yahweh.

In the 4,000 years or so from Adam and Eve's time in the Garden to Jesus, Yahweh couldn't or wouldn't make himself known to the other races. He didn't reveal himself to those in Africa, Asia, the Americas or Europe, just to one tiny specific group of people in the Middle East. If couldn't then he's not the omnipotent, omnipresent god he claims, if he wouldn't that makes him a racist ass not worthy of following by picking one people to be his chosen people.

The only reason Europe became Christian was forced conversion when the Christian armies of Rome forced them to, which setup a tradition of most Europeans and later Americans being born into a faith. Were the exact same people born in Saudi Arabia they "would know that they know" that Islam is the true religion, or same in India but applying to Hinduism.

And saying that atheists have had supernatural experiences and can change to theism when talking about it, ignores the whole point of the video, especially the part when he talks about the linked Darren Brown video, which demonstrates that it is easy to make a spiritual experience happen that has no basis on any real god.

By way of example: I used to be a heavy evangelical Christian, I watched TBN and Fox News religiously (pun intended, see this old post of mine here on the sift from an old account that I couldn't recover http://videosift.com/usercomments/Charon... heck see my Revelations from the Word posts on my blog, http://www.brianathomas.com/archives/category/religion/revelations-from-the-word/ or more embarrassing my older political posts http://www.brianathomas.com/archives/category/politics/ which while progressive now, go to page 4 or so around June 2008 and back and you see a Libertarian and further back Republican with some crazy anti-vaccine paranoia , climate change denialism, science denaillism and other things I'm deeply ashamed of now)... I've had deep and meaningful spiritual experiences with god. After Republicans ruined Christianity for me (as the Republican party is clearly 100% against every teaching of Jesus... and yeah we can tick that off as being humans, but god does nothing to correct them, he may have spoke to my heart or whatever one wants to say to have more empathy, but over half the Christians in this nation still vote for a party 100% devoid of the teachings of the Jesus of the Bible while claiming to do it for Christian reasons) and I eventually lost faith (while Republicans are the reason I initially lost faith, they aren't the reason I stayed away, god is a dick is why I stayed away). After I lost faith in the Christian god, I gave paganism a try, and I've had just a meaningful spiritual experiences while worshiping at a Druid rite as I have at any Christian church. This is why people pick a religion, first by accident of birth (most people are Christian in the US because their parents were, and back to Europe where going back further they were forced to convert by invading Christian armies), second by choosing one that connects more personally with them... for many they see the hypocrisy of Christianity (and its general lack of empathy) but do connect with some form of paganism, and pagans generally have a patron god they serve above most others, and that god is the one they have a deep connection to, the same deep connection that Christians claim to have with Jesus/Yahweh... One doesn't drive a plane into a building killing 3,000 plus people without a deep and meaningful relationship with their god, and to dismiss t hat relationship as being deceived is naive and demonstrates a lack of empathy.

Now, I will allow the possibility that god does exist, but not in the form Christians propose, but perhaps closer to what the US Founding Fathers believed, but perhaps expanded a bit with more modern knowledge. A Deist like view. That this god somehow this god, created the energy and set into motion the laws of this physical universe that spun out from the big bang, but he's had nothing to do with anything since then. Perhaps all religions actually worship the same god but with their own culture's expectations and interpretations. However this would mean that all religions and lack there of are equally valid, which most faiths (aside from most modern paganism) doesn't allow for as their claim rests on being the true one.

I've rambled on far too long already so I'll leave it at that.

OMFG... the threads... First Bob calls liberals two faced, but Conservatives were upset at the Dixie Chicks when they spoke out against Bush and his wars. Many conservatives demanded the Dixie Chips sponsors drop them and had large CD burning events, all over the fact they spoke their mind and their beliefs. Now these same people are upset at A&E for suspending a guy (a rather worthless suspension since the upcoming season is already filmed and he's already in it, and it is making free publicity for a stupid show about rich people).

This isn't a free speech issue. He isn't in jail for espousing anti-gay and racist remarks. He was suspended for saying something that made his part time employer look bad. Food Network fired Paula Dean. There was a PR lady who was going to Africa on a business trip that got fired after she tweeted she hopes she doesn't get AIDS, but no problem since she's white. You represent your company, officially or not, and make them look bad, your employer can fire you. You can say what you want, but sometimes that speech has consequences. A&E created the Duck Dynasty image, he made their network look bad, they have the right to suspend him... suspend, they didn't even fully fire him. Were they really outraged they would have pulled the show or edited him out of the upcoming season, but they didn't do any of that. They made a publicity grabbing move to suspend him.

This video also highlights the one key point I've been saying the whole time. That Jesus Himself said it is impossible for a rich man to get into heaven, doesn't matter if they want to or do follow Him, they have their reward here, and won't have one in Heaven. So Phil goes off on how gays are "full of murder" and how they won't inherit the Kingdom of God, but ignores that part where Jesus Himself said that people like Phil won't go to Heaven.

Then high, blaming it on some Atheist agenda. The same thing would have happened regardless of what religion or lack there of he had. This has nothing to do with Atheist wanting to make Christians look bad, as there is plenty of outrage over what he said in many Christian circles... you do know most liberals are Christian as well. Yes, most Atheist tend to be liberal, but the largest voting block of Democrats and Greens are Christian. People who take the Bible as the literal word of God, and believe Jesus was serious when He said to help the needy and poor, that the rich won't go to Heaven, that blessed are the peacemaker and not the warmongering Republicans, that when you pray, to pray in secret and not make a show of it the way modern Conservatives do, that know the reason for the destruction of Sodom according to the Bible was that "she was a land of plenty and did nothing to help the needy and poor", basically full of modern Conservatives, that the thing with the Angels happened after the city was condemned to be destroyed and they were there to rescue Lot's family, before Lot pulled the father of the year by offering his young daughters (think Olson Twins) over the angelic warriors of God (think Conan the Barbarian and Rambo) with magical powers, rather than just a simple "no". Anyhow, plenty of Christians are upset at what Phil said, because it makes Christians look bad, he not only bashed gays, but thought blacks were fine under the old Jim Crow era laws, thought Nazis were Jesus free, though Jesus and the Bible was their main defense for all they did... He basically made the Conservative Christians look like they ignore the main teaching of Jesus which was to Love one another. Jesus hung out with the sinners and tax collectors and told them of the love of God, not how God is going to condemn them all to Hell. If Jesus was alive in modern day America, he'd be hanging out in San Francisco talking about the love of God, not fighting to deny them equal rights under the law.

And of course Shiny... The controversy with Chick-fil-a isn't so much what some stupid old rich man says, he also made it clear that was the position of the company as a whole. And that anti-gay money was going to organizations that actively campaign not only to make being gay illegal in the US, in other countries where it is gay and punishable by death, they campaign to keep the death penalty attached to it. That said, at least Siny agrees that A&E had no choice... though, based on past posts, I don't think Shiny sees that the whole modern day Conservative movement is driven by the greed factor, that modern Christian Conservatives are willing to toss out every government program to help the needy and the poor so that they can give tax breaks to the rich...

It's all a free publicity stunt. I'm sure A&E will cave in, or Phil will issue some semi apology, "like I still believe it is a sin, but I'm sorry I likened them to murderers and I'm sorry about offending any blacks, I was just noting my personal observations growing up" type thing and he'll continue to rake in millions, going against the very Jesus he claims to follow... and he'll be right back on.

@Sagemind I hope you told him where he could stick it. I know in the moment some people (like me) have trouble doing that, but I really hope you did

Another problem with "wages" or lack there of in North America, including here in Canada, is the goddamn culture of "tipping". It's gotten out of hand. It's no longer a method to show appreciation to a good product or service, instead it's now seen as mandatory where some places have the gall to advertise the oxymoron "mandatory gratuity".

In Australia, you see the prices listed, you pay that price, you get some change (none of which are 1 cent coins), maybe put some change in a tip jar if you're feeling gratuitous and that's it. Everyone's happy. Here it becomes a federal case if you do not tip when you get shitty service or meal.

I'm sure this poll is a shock to many of you. Growing up in the secular world, where all of the media you consume is geared towards secular interests, and when all of the people you hang around have those same interests, you might get the idea that Christians just constitute some fringe part of society. At least, that's what I used to think. I was fairly shocked to find out that this country is predominantly Christian. Or that 1/3 of the worlds population is Christian.

I am also in the more unique position of having once been a die hard believer in evolution and the old age of the Earth, and being convinced otherwise by the evidence, or lack there of. To note, I was perfectly willing to accept these two ideas, even as a Christian. I had been fully indoctrinated and so I had naturally expected to find a preponderance of strong evidence for them, case closed. It was only after investigating the data (and not just the conclusions) that I was *extremely* shocked to find that it took a greater leap of faith to believe in those theories than it did to believe Genesis.

For those of you unafraid to challenge your preconceived notions, and challenge you it will, I recommend this book:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0890510628/ref=tmm_pap_used_olp_sr?ie=UTF8&condition=used

@VoodooV
Humans can speak firmly, loudly, emotionally, impatiently and disrespectfully on subjects they care about. This doesn't mean they are angry, could just be passionate (lol, but also could be angry)

If you perceive Atheists as being angry in the face of Agnosticism, I suggest (where possible) informing them what your position actually is as I've met some and heard of others who erroneously thought it was a position of no opinion.. and that's what would get them agitated.

The number of times I've felt I've had to go in to bat for Agnostics is far greater than the times I've had to bat for Atheists, by these experiences I do understand the negativity, but feel some more recent comments were categorizing a bit extensively.. remember, some people are just assholes, regardless of their stance on a subject.

Main reason for this post: Atheism is not a religion. (think that was the first time I've gone bold on the sift)
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/religion

I don't like going to the dictionary, but I really want to distance Atheists and Agnostics as far from religions as possible.. had too many conversations where people try to tell me Atheist and Agnostic are the same thing and are also a religion.. *grits teeth*

So, in every dictionary definition you will notice that 'religions' relate to the having of a belief, not the lack there of (note that i don't actually doubt you already know this).
If you want to make this claim, then by the same logic you must also accept that you and I are also in the Afairyist religion, and the Aunicorn religion, Acookie-monster religion, and A etc etc religion (I took the assumption you didn't believe in some things, please do correct me if I'm wrong). Hopefully this points out how absurd it is to claim 'not believing something is real' is a religion.

It's incorrect on more counts than this (no practices/rituals, no rules/guidelines, no faith/acceptance of a supernatural entity) and imo comes from one of 2(3) things, either you're wrong and don't know it, or you're trying to agitate people. You've made too many good points for me to suspect the former without additional reason to suggest you weren't sure of the legitimate meaning of religion.

I don't like religions, and if by 'religion' you did know the meaning, and weren't trying to agitate people, then i suspect you were referring to the dogmatic fanaticism that some Atheists display.. in which case, OK, yeah, but would rather you just say we're 'whining little bitches that too-aggressively make their stance and don't shutup', that i could accept without posting.

Agree with everything you said in your previous post except 'Atheist religion', 'anger' and 'revenge'.

I really think it goes to the heart of their mentality (or lack there of if you will) that they thought this was something to be proud of. I mean really what more do you need to know about them as people and a group. Let me ask you this Sage what could have they possibly been doing... to warrant being 'run-off'... short of burning bibles or performing abortions what could possibly justify this really pathetic group of people to be so proud of their bullying...

Yes, but we can choose..and we do choose..our will is over the evolutionary process in this artificial reality we've constructed. Soon we'll be able to select whatever we want. So this really does come down to what we value, and how we value it..because I guarantee you when we start programming our own DNA, downs syndrome will be written out. Humans will never value that, because no one wants their kid to be born like that.

Ultimately the only goal of a species is to survive, it doesn't matter what it evolves into..evolution is dumb and blind..there is no blue print for success. Just keep having sex and it'll all be alright. So eventually we will become the designer..and then the future of the species will be dependent on our values, or lack there of. I think that should scare any rational person.

So, what is the value of a functionally useless person who is a burden to society and can't experience a normal human life? God says that person is the same as you. Evolution says hes only good if he can get laid. Eugenics will say zero.


>> ^Ryjkyj:
I'm not kidding around when I say that evolution doesn't work that way Shiny. I really do mean that evolution doesn't work that way.
Whatever reproduces determines the course of evolution by whatever means necessary. It's not up to you or me or any scientist to determine the most appropriate configuration. That's why the whole "survival of the fittest" thing is always misinterpreted. "Fittest" doesn't mean "best", it means whatever happens to survive or "fit" that particular situation. You can't determine the best fit. You can guess, but you can't tell the future. And science is certainly not up to the task of accounting for all the variables, yet. Thus far, eugenics has had incredibly poor results.
One of the things that people most commonly don't understand about evolution is that each being includes some mutation, so you're not an exact 50/50 copy of your parents. So a person with a disability isn't necessarily going to pass it on to their offspring. And even if they do, if they survived to reproduce then they did something right.
Perpetuating aberration seems irrational to us. But actually, that's the way that evolution works.
Of course, I won't fault you for saying that it's so beautifully simplistic that it might just allude to some sort of a designer. <IMG class=smiley src="http://cdn.videosift.com/cdm/emoticon/smile.gif">

I believe because it brings me comfort. Praying makes me feel good and connected to something beyond myself. That's all I need. We really don't know if there is a "Soul" or not, or where a "Soul" goes after the body has passed. Faith and belief get me through each day with the idea that the daily struggle, if not rewarded in life, is rewarded in the afterlife. I think that precludes a religion, and a religion is just a matter of choice. I think their issue is more organized religion, especially some of the born again Christian groups which drive me crazy in their zealous righteousness. I think you can have faith and belief without excluding and without judging. If God and Jesus can accept and love a prostitute, then why the hell can't a Christian love a gay man or an atheist?
I have total respect to all and any beliefs or the lack there of. But I can not tolerate ignorance and closed mindedness.

Unfortunately for people who believe atheists have no morality because morality comes from religion, science now knows where we get morality, and it is a specific part of our brain. We evolved to have morality because morality is important in a tribal culture. We evolved to have morality as well because it was a powerful motivator for life to strive to succeed. Evidence of this can be seen in many species of animal, including our species.

This thought that morality stems from religion is so ingrained in society even my mother (the most open person I know when it comes to religion) thinks that people without religion, or people who haven't grown up with religion don't have a center of morality built within them.

And the whole 'if we evolved from monkeys than why are there still monkeys' just shows supreme ignorance. It shows that Mr. Harvey never picked up anything on evolution and read it just to determine whether he believes it or not. It shows that he avoids anything that has to do with evolution because he simply doesn't want to even think that it is fact. He isn't even intelligent enough to pick up a book, read the theory and it's evidence and make an intelligent choice as to whether he would stick with 'god made everything in 7 days and the universe is 6000 years old' or to accept Evolution.

Again I am seeing the whole 'atheists have beliefs too because they don't believe in gold, that is a belief!' argument. Oh and how circular it is. I am not an atheist so I cannot presume anything but I can tell you that lack of belief is not belief in and of itself, but the lack..there...of.

>> ^NinjaInHeat:
First of all, you misunderstood me completely, I was talking about spiritual belief, there's a difference between believing the sun will come up and believing in god and even there I have a problem with the verb "believe". I don't believe the sun will come up, I know it has come up every day since the day I was born so I assume (with quite a bit of certainty) that it will come up again tomorrow.
I understood from your words that you believe in god, you talk about meaning with such certainty and then you talk about humility? To me, true humility is accepting you can't truly believe in things of the spiritual nature, they are metaphysical, you have no means of judging their meaning/existence or lack there of. You could look at the different explanations science/religion/your own personal interpretation can offer and say which you feel the most at peace with.
You talk about the "trap" of nihilism, again, ironic. As far as I'm concerned religious belief is the trap, it is in of it self arrogance, it is saying "I believe in something because I do, because I have faith". I don't "believe" in science, I accept that it is our most efficient tool at understanding the world, it isn't an answer, it is a means. I don't understand how any humble human being deems it justifiable to just pick from a plethora of so called "answers" or "truths" and say "this one, this is true, this explains everything, there is meaning". Again, if I misunderstood, I apologize, but if you are religious then why would you talk about something like the sun rising and falling? It is a physical phenomenon that we can observe and make (somewhat) objective assumptions about. You must realize that in religion logic is never on your side, it is the belief in spite of logic, the insistence on the least likely, arrogance.


I can tell you're itching to attack my views here, but since you're not sure, you can't unload the big guns. I'll make it easier for you. Yes, I believe in God. No, it isn't because I was raised with religion (i wasn't), nor was I indoctrinated. I was agnostic until a few years ago. I believe in God because of personal revelation.

Now you say God isn't likely. How would you know? If you want to look at it that way, everything is equally unlikely. Why should anything exist at all? I think you're having the problem that most atheists have, seperating the question from religious ideas about it. The question, "Was the Universe created?" is a perfectly reasonable one. I don't see why it seems so out there to some people to believe that the Universe could have been created. To say it all exploded out of nothing randomly I think is a much more bizzare (and ridiculous) thought.

The spiritual is not something you believe in, it's something you experience. It's not a matter of conceptualizing it, it's a matter of what is happening in actuality, real time, in the here and now. Before my beliefs changed, I had no clue what any of it was all about. I presumed people were imagining it. Not so. There are interconnections between us which transcend physiciality. There are parallel realities in which people can and do travel, in their dreams or wide awake. Until you experience it personally, you absolutely won't know anything about it what-so-ever. It's like trying to watch a football game from outside the stadium based on the noise the crowd is making.

I don't believe the things I do, or have the faith I have, because of some selfish need or weakness or fear. I believe as I do because of my personal experience. I wouldn't believe it, otherwise. It isn't arrogant of me to believe in something in which I have sufficient evidence personally. To me, truth is something tangible; it is not a vague conception. It is the framework of who and what I am. Regardless of whether it seems real to someone else, it is real to me, and the impact I have on the world is a direct result of that truth. So, either way you look at it, it's a real thing. This is what I meant about all the meaning out there. 7 billion human beings living out their truth. It is tangible to all of us.

First of all, you misunderstood me completely, I was talking about spiritual belief, there's a difference between believing the sun will come up and believing in god and even there I have a problem with the verb "believe". I don't believe the sun will come up, I know it has come up every day since the day I was born so I assume (with quite a bit of certainty) that it will come up again tomorrow.

I understood from your words that you believe in god, you talk about meaning with such certainty and then you talk about humility? To me, true humility is accepting you can't truly believe in things of the spiritual nature, they are metaphysical, you have no means of judging their meaning/existence or lack there of. You could look at the different explanations science/religion/your own personal interpretation can offer and say which you feel the most at peace with.

You talk about the "trap" of nihilism, again, ironic. As far as I'm concerned religious belief is the trap, it is in of it self arrogance, it is saying "I believe in something because I do, because I have faith". I don't "believe" in science, I accept that it is our most efficient tool at understanding the world, it isn't an answer, it is a means. I don't understand how any humble human being deems it justifiable to just pick from a plethora of so called "answers" or "truths" and say "this one, this is true, this explains everything, there is meaning". Again, if I misunderstood, I apologize, but if you are religious then why would you talk about something like the sun rising and falling? It is a physical phenomenon that we can observe and make (somewhat) objective assumptions about. You must realize that in religion logic is never on your side, it is the belief in spite of logic, the insistence on the least likely, arrogance.

>> ^shinyblurry:

>> ^NinjaInHeat:
The lack of conviction you speak of, the unwillingness to accept any "truth" as absolute is by definition the opposite of arrogance. How can anyone who -believes- in anything say to the "non-believer" that he's arrogant? A believer must be arrogant enough to say "I believe in this, I don't believe in that", a logical person simply says "I am not informed enough to decide what is true and what is not, I believe everything is possible". As far as I'm concerned, belief is the ultimate form of arrogance: a person allowing himself not to be completely objectiveBR>

Believing something is not the ultimate arrogance. I believe the Sun will come up tomorrow. Is that arrogant, or is it just good sense? Essentially, I am taking a leap of faith, but the precipice isn't very high. We can believe things just on the basis of observation and deduction. Just because I could be wrong doesn't mean I have no basis for my belief. My belief there is completely justified by the long history of the Sun coming up every day without fail, the stability we find in the continuim, and what we have observed about the behavior of Sol and other similar stars.
How is one supposed to be truly objective? Only God could be truly objective. We simply don't have enough information to be objective about anything. Our lives are consumed with self-interest. Just to maintain our life here we have to eat, be clothed, etc. I guarantee you no one on Earth is as interested in this as you are. We are inherently selfish for this reason. We have to be. It isn't like someone else could or would live our lives for us. Unless we reach out and grab it for ourselves, no one is going to be putting it in our hand.
A logical person may say he isn't informed enough to make judgments about everything, but he is reasonably informed enough about some things to feel fairly confident in his stance. Is that arrogance? To believe something is true, regardless of whether he could be wrong or not? We all have that in common, you know. Every one of us could be wrong about absolutely everything we know as true and real. I think its admirable, to take a stand for what you believe in, as obviously Mr Hitchins did and still does. I think its cowardice to dismiss it all as meaningless. The Earth is ripe with meaning, with value. It screams out to us every moment of every day. To look at this world and see nothing meaningful has got to be a mental illness at best.

I've been fed the 'if you don't believe in god that's a belief system' comment myself. It is typical circular logic amongst those that try so very hard to make everyone believe in the irrational. I personally consider myself agnostic. I am quite sure there is no such thing as a god or that the universe was created by his/her/it's hands. But I also believe there is a lot more about this universe that we cannot fathom as of yet.

When confronted by the 'not believing in god is a belief system' comment my usual reply is that, no I don't 'believe' that god doesn't exist. I simply look at the evidence (or rather, the lack there of) and determine there is no such thing. A lot of these people simply don't understand what that means. The ones that do, never say something that stupid in the first place.

They were sooooo waiting for this... Hannity and Gingrich are two of the lowest scum on the planet. Almost every word from their mouths is self-serving drivel. Gingrich saying he's sure the bill will be over 20 Billion is ridiculous considering the settlements in the Exxon Valdez case (or lack there of). Not to mention the the money is only being held in escrow which they don't seem to understand.

Actually when you hear the longer version as Penn states, where he says that the transcendental feeling is something which religion provides and atheists lack, there's an excellent rebuttal using his own logic. I feel exceptionally transcendental when I see all those shows about the real nature of the universe. For example the recent videos about the black hole at the center of the universe fill me with a feeling which I can only describe as transcendental: a feeling of amazing wonder at the idea that I exist next to these marvels, so gigantic and violent and yet here I am comfortable and introspective as a result...

... but yeah, I guess "fuck you" also captures part of what I'd say to that asshole if I actually met him.