“ It’s your insistence that Jewish people, and the existence of Israel, have always fundamentally been invaders that I was objecting to as it is so intensely at odds with factual history.”
No…it is at odds with your position and is not what I said.
It is factual history that fighting age European Jews came armed and forcibly displaced the natives after being offered sanctuary for their most needy. It is not factual that I claimed it was ever thus. That is clearly not what I said, I said for 10+- years they were getting along as refugees, then started coming in HUGE numbers illegally and taking over.

Those are facts.

I also mentioned a native Jewish population that were not refugees or invaders. Some of them supported the invading Zionists, some didn’t. I’ve never heard of one who opposed them.

“ You gave a brief nod on not being a scholar of Palestinian history, but then proceed to just count all Jewish refugees as good as Zionist aggressors from day 1(or close enough), and the local Arab population as nothing but pure, kind caring victims of these invaders.”

Not even close to true, I said many stood behind the Zionists when they started coming en masse, and didn’t say but seemingly few to none of the native Jews opposed them. I also was clear that at the beginning the refugees acted like refugees, not invaders….I mistakenly gave them more time being grateful than you say they were, according to you Palestinians position is they began the invasion in the 20’s….and theirs is the opinion I care about. I never claimed ALL Arabs were welcoming, but the “nation” as a whole (despite being not self ruling at the time) welcomed a huge number of refugees considering their own population. Way more than elsewhere.

Edit: Britain, who facilitated this invasion, only took in 80000 European Jews in the decade before and during the war, and they were only given transit visas to stay temporarily until they found other accommodations. All of England took in fewer Jewish refugees in all pre war history than Palestine did….England took in 80000, most on temporary visas, Palestine took in 60000 permanently in 1935 alone, and 130000 in 33-36.
Pre-immigration Palestine had about 700000 people. In 1944 European Jews ignored the 1500 visa limit per year and came by the hundred of thousands per year after already completely overwhelming the native population.
Palestine was forcibly invaded by a foreign population exponentially bigger than the native population while Britain kept them too weak to oppose it physically.
That’s an invasion…not on day 1. 🤦‍♂️

“ without being able to writeoff Israel as invaders from day 1, nuance enters the calculus and suddenly the conflict is flooded with shades of grey ”

Again, I said day 3, not day 1, and went on to say that meant 10 years later. Get off your high horse and READ buddy.

I guess I’ll stop here. If you aren’t going to read what I wrote and insist on arguing red herrings you made up yourself, you can do that alone.

Nothing you’ve said changes or excuses the fact that masses of armed violent invaders came to take the land from the natives by force and were successful. The exact date this happened is not only y highly subjective, it’s completely besides the point.
Nothing you’ve said changes or excuses the inhuman treatment they’ve subjected the innocent native civilian population to for 70 years…but you’ve tried.
Nothing you’ve said changes or excuses the intentional targeting of trapped civilians by the military….serious war crimes Israel commits daily.
Nothing you’ve said even hints that you consider Palestinians worthy of consideration themselves, possibly not even human status, definitely not peaceful existence.

Bye

"Who the fuck cares what the reason they wanted to invadeflee was?"

Characterization matters a little here, no?

"They had a right to refugee status there, not to take control and possession by force"

Which is at the heart of things.

The Arab narrative is that Jews arrived guns loaded and set about pillaging, killing and invading as soon as they had sufficient numbers, while the poor domestic Arab population had only been trying to assist and welcome in the refugees...

Which is ahistorical propaganda.

The reality is that for the most part, the European Jews arriving in Palestine were refugees and acting like refugees. Meaning they mostly just wanted to be able to provide food, shelter and safety for the families, just like everyone else. Most of them tried to set about doing this by legally purchasing land.

Lots of the local Arabs similarly were content to get along.

At that same time though, there were hardcore Zionists among the Jewish arrivals AND there were xenophobic elements willing to use violence within the Arab population too.

The tensions rose as the populations rose, but largely as a result of a large people being displaced, and NOT as the planned invasion you describe. The local Arab population started to band together to refuse to work, trade or sell to Jews. Violence broke out instigated separately on smallish scales by BOTH sides. Escalating violence followed, again back and forth between sides.

I'm in a camp that has a hard time blaming either the domestic Arab population for distress at the huge influx of refugees, nor for the European Jewish people having a low tolerance for discrimination and violence directed there way solely for being Jewish.

I see it as a huge mess, but with two large populations of Jewish and Arab people in Palestine acting not terribly unreasonably under circumstances of extreme pressure.

I think it's lazy and convenient to just declare 'invasion' so that you can simplify it all down to right/wrong and good guy/bad guy....

Yes. What’s your point? You seem to agree with me, except you go back to the 20’s instead of early 30’s. I’m not a Palestine scholar, sorry if I get details or dates slightly wrong, sources vary on many points. It doesn’t change my point, that under British rule European Jews were allowed to immigrate in huge numbers despite opposition from the native population that was being overwhelmed by increasing unwanted forced immigration. At first it was accepted even encouraged by the empathetic natives, but quickly became an overwhelming unwanted invasion of people intent on taking over, not some moderate number of refugees looking for temporary refuge.

Who the fuck cares what the reason they wanted to invade was? Palestinians weren’t responsible for their plight, but still stood ready to help until invaded and subjugated harshly by the invaders.
Should Venezuelans be allowed to take over Pennsylvania because they want out of Venezuela for good reason? Or Chinese? Or any African? Or Central American? Certainly Haitians have it bad enough to make it ok to take a state for themselves! Yes, Europe was dangerous…for anyone. That’s not an excuse to invade, murder another person and steal their land and subjugate their descendants for decades, but that’s what they did…and what you’re attempting to excuse.

Well, that explains it then. You think because the Jews had it worse once, it excuses being the Nazis today. I do not, I believe it gives them more reason to never be anything like the Nazis, not emulate them. The Palestinian plight is worse than many Jews in Europe besides Poland or Germany. They’re already in the ghetto, not free to travel and maybe get out. They’re already oppressed, subjugated, starved, dehydrated, often without power or communications, and 100% under the thumb and control of their oppressors. Sounds pretty shitty to me. Your family murdered at a whim with no repercussions sounds pretty bad. Your ancestral home taken by force and family shot for existing sounds fairly bad. I’m not sure how you think it’s OK because someone else maybe had it worse once.

When they “arrived in Palestine”, it was as an illegal unwanted invasion intent on taking over and expelling or eradicating the native population. They deserved violence 100%. The population was doing more than their share accepting refugees, then for their humanity was invaded and dehumanized in their own country. No excuse can make that acceptable unless it had happened in Germany post war.

Yes, Jews were the bad guys, invading a land they had and have no right to. You got it! They didn’t even have a right to refugee status there, it was a gift, they absolutely had no right to take control and possession by force, nor to become the inhuman monsters they were fleeing in Northern Europe.

Absolutely not. What even was his plan, I ask you. It wasn’t securing the borders.

I support the plan to FUND border parol and immigration courts to not only secure the border but repair the immigration process that does not function today. With a functioning immigration process, most would use it, making stopping illegal entry much easier.

I support refugee camps in the East Texas desert, not open release before processing.

I absolutely do not support actual open borders, nor allowing other countries to just send plane and train and boatloads of unvetted people in in numbers that would make natives the minority in quick fashion, nor do I support returning Texas (including Oklahoma, Kansas, Colorado, Wyoming, and New Mexico) to the Mexicans even though they are fleeing near the same level of fear, oppression and death from narco gangs and have some hereditary claims (which European Jews did not, they were mostly not Semitic genetically). I disagree the circumstances were much more desperate in the 30’s outside of Germany, and I disagree that the choices are Trumpism or no-border free-for-alls.

2 things….

1. If you call the IRS today you get an operator, not an agent or accountant, and their advice is largely guessing…their unprofessional unpaid advice does not remove your responsibility to do your taxes correctly…it wouldn’t if they were an agent because they don’t have access to 100% of your financial records to make an informed suggestion and they aren’t retained by you for the advice. Republicans fought to keep from hiring more agents to answer phones by claiming they would be armed Jack booted thugs breaking into your home with military force instead of accountants sitting in offices waiting to help citizens. Now you whine.

2. The fox already watches the hen house. This is just letting them tell you what your taxes are instead of making you do the math and them telling you you are wrong. They already do this calculation, and use it to determine if you did your taxes correctly. (Side note- I know this personally because I often get notification I have over estimated my taxes by a minor amount and they have revised my refund accordingly.)

Wouldn’t it be nicer if they just told you what you owe and give you the opportunity to claim they’re wrong instead of making you take a math test first then doing the exact same thing?

Remember, it was Trump’s number one promise on the campaign trail, he would simplify taxes day one so you could do them on a 3x5 card. He never even tried, and taxes became more convoluted under him. He added special interest groupings (for multi millionaires) and gave them huge tax breaks while the middle class got a temporary payroll tax vacation they had to pay back the next year.

If you want simpler or lower taxes, forget about Trump. He made them more difficult and higher for nearly everyone AND added $8 TRILLION to the bill despite promising to simplify, cut taxes, and create a surplus. 🤦‍♂️

I like chocoloney. They’re expensive but huge.

That body builder couldn’t lift a piece of paper….
….if you taped it to his back.

I never understand the thought behind creating huge muscles that limit your range of motion so much. Sure, you can bench 500 lbs, but can you even scratch your own nose? I’m much more impressed by rock climbers that can do one pinky pull-ups all day long but look like weak computer nerds until their shirts come off.

Niiice. I'm a huge fan of cruelty for the benefit of the victim. Must *promote

Today it was revealed that Elon has cut/refused access to Starlink for Ukraine in the Black Sea in order to intentionally hobble their major counter offensive in the Black Sea and cripple their communication ability and suddenly Elon is calling for an immediate truce (ostensibly with both sides (Russia) retaining any territory taken previously)…so his plan is handing Russia 1/3 of Ukraine and allowing them to keep Ukrainian Crimea…and quick before Ukraine retakes their country.
He has previously said he would not do any such thing ever after offering Ukraine open access to Starlink, but suddenly changed course in the middle of a major military offensive by Ukraine he said would be like Pearl Harbor (meaning the Ukrainians caught a huge number of Russian ships in port vulnerable to attack and could turn the tide of war in one action), but Elon wanted to stop the Ukrainians from achieving such a significant victory so he cut their communications to help Russia! He has admitted this publicly, it’s not supposition.

I hope sanctions are forthcoming…major multiple business ending sanctions.

If you still support Elon, you are the problem. He’s anti American and pro fascist.
Quit X, trade in your Tesla, and tell NASA to quit handing him billions in no bid, no competition, non performance based contracts using tax payer money for failures and global communication projects he capriciously withdraws from our allies when they’re needed most, and uses to prop up and control information for multiple fascist governments to the detriment of the populace but to the benefit of his pockets.

Still waiting. Unemployment went down to 3.5 in July, not up. Average hourly earnings rose 0.4% for the month, good for a 4.4% annual pace, both above expectations and inflation. When is this huge jump in unemployment and the market crash you predicted 3 1/2 months ago going to happen? 😂


BTW- an FBI agent just gave public testimony that he was reprimanded for and received a strict prohibition against filing intelligence reports relating to Giuliani or any other Trump associate, and his investigations were interfered with consistently and he received retaliatory acts, intelligence suppression, and defamation from superiors as early as 2017 and continuing through Jan 2022 when he filed a whistleblower lawsuit. That included among other crimes multiple cases of Giuliani taking unreported cash payments from Russians and Russian Ukrainians like Pavel Fuks, and his defrauding investors over a never started anti Biden movie he was paid hundreds of thousands for setting up. Glad those “weaponizing the fed” hearings keep finding more cases of Trump’s administration and deep state MAGA doing just that. 😂

😂
Once again…”just wait until Monday, Trump will prove the election fraud and his innocence at a press conference, total exoneration”, (Tomorrow, tomorrow, I love ya tomorrow….)
Trump claimed he was going to hold a press conference and show his huge conclusive report including the evidence proving the election was stolen from him before arraignment, which he said would end what you say are nonsense allegations and indictments…
…but now SURPRISE SURPRISE SURPRISE he won’t be holding that press conference, and won’t be releasing that report publicly but will withhold it for trial (sound familiar?).
He’s tried this exact same lie 70 times in court and lost every single time…but you’re sure it will work THIS TIME. 😂

So fun watching you rubes being insanely gullible AGAIN, still believing the guy who has NEVER told you the truth. The guy who has put everyone in his administration in serious legal jeopardy with his lies.
I bet you believe Trump, who is in fact a convicted rapist, liar, and fraud, who claims all the Jan 6 evidence has been destroyed despite it being publicly archived and listed in discovery in one of Trump’s trials and turned over to his team already.

https://www.govinfo.gov/collection/january-6th-committee-final-report?path=/gpo/January%206th%20Committee%20Final%20Report%20and%20Supporting%20Materi
als%20Collection/Final%20Report/%7B%22pageSize%22%3A%2250%22%2C%22offset%22%3A%220%22%7D

It’s fun because everyone outside the cult sees it now, sees how ridiculous and dumb his lies (and yours) are…and his lies aren’t gaining him a single vote and won’t fly in court.
You are being played again.

😂 😂 😂 😂 😂
In under 1 minute they blame Jan 6 on Pelosi. You’ve got to try a new lie, dummy. This long ago debunked nonsense only flies with delusional cultists, it turns real Americans away from the “not my fault” party because we all know better. We’ve known better for years and years.
Disgraced Tucker!?! That’s your “news” source now? 🤦‍♂️ 😂 You’ll just believe any stupidity as long as there’s no evidence to back it up, won’t you?

As Speaker of the House, Pelosi does not direct the National Guard, neither did McConnel. Pelosi was not a chair or administrator of any committee supervising the Capitol Police at the time of the insurrection. Further, as the Capitol came under attack, she and the Senate Majority leader called for military assistance, including the National Guard. Trump overrode the request and no help came.

*lies
*debunked

Maybe if Republicans had cared to investigate they might know some facts, but nope, you wanted no investigation, no facts made public, definitely no trials. The republicans on the committee have debunked these, and a thousand other nonsense claims, and the maggots just ignore them.
Now Trump is lying again by claiming the entirety of the Jan 6 investigation has been erased, with no evidence or testimony available, nothing at all….another 100% lie, his lawyers are actually refusing to accept it because they don’t want to have to keep it in a SCIF away from Trump, who they know will immediately post snippets from it on social media despite court orders against it, likely getting him put in jail for contempt and adding more espionage charges.

Now the crimes you just deny are coming home to fuck your world, and I’m so here for every single second with a huge bag of kettle corn laughing my ass hole shut!

Where’s the rest of the footage that proves there was no violence at all and that all the brutal preplanned violence was perpetrated by BLM and the FBI to trick poor nonviolent innocent Trumpists into trying to lynch the vp and murder police? Where is it, Bob? Why’s disgraced Tucker hiding it and allowing hundreds of MAGgot convictions he could prevent?

It’s not a huge deal…unless it catches on, but it hasn’t yet.
Absolutely there are more wasteful endeavors, that doesn’t make this any more sane or responsible though.
Absolutely again agreeing with disagreeing that death is bad. Death is not only necessary, it’s what makes life interesting. Immortality is a curse, one I wouldn’t wish on even the ultra rich….nor would I wish for an ultra rich immortal caste.

Nice…..Yeah yeah…CBG is hyperbolic….everything can’t be the worst ever….or can it?

Lol! Pennsylvanian Republicans just lost another case trying to toss out their own mail in voting law after it didn’t help them in 2020 or 22. 😂

Seems MAGA is losing cases left and right in their desperate attempt to block any voters that aren’t retired white people or corporations. (Yes, Republicans are trying to give any corporation a vote in elections as if they were citizens).

Fortunately, they’re just too dumb to understand the law and constitution and are losing bigly, like with multiple MAGA states who implemented hyper biased redistricting intended to favor republicans now being forced to create new democratic districts. Trumpism destroyed your party and it’s prospects.

Bonus- DC Federal Judge Amy Berman Jackson who just ordered Donald Trump to sit for a deposition in the wrongful termination and retaliation cases brought by Peter Strzok and Lisa Page. They got around the “apex doctrine” because Trump repeatedly bragged publicly that he was 100% responsible for having them fired, and his lame excuse that he didn’t have time ignored because he has time for dozens of frivolous lawsuits against others, so he has time to be deposed. Not a huge deal, but likely another few million of your political donations will go to hand Trumps enemies huge judgements and settlements (and pay his horrific lawyers). Lots of that going around.
Also the DC bar report on Giuliani recommends his disbarment for his part in the big lie.

The Supreme Court just ruled that Trump’s attempted legislative coup (the fake electors) was completely illegal. They ruled that state legislators don’t have the final say on elections (so can’t just send a second set of electors), courts do, and courts can strike down or overrule laws or rules legislators put in effect. This kills the “independent state legislation” theory. This decision also declared your state, N Carolina, must let the court review and approve redistributing maps (meaning Republicans can’t gerrymander there anymore and will lose more political power).
Not good for his Georgia trial where his defense was the legislature had the ultimate power to decide elections unbound by votes…now there’s no defense…again.


They also declared Alabama’s districting maps blatantly racist and illegal, and started looking At Louisiana when they ruled. Both redistricted illegally in order to minimize the power of their huge minority populations for 2020 and 2022 elections, blatantly violating voting rights laws. Now it sounds like two more democrats will be seated from new districts in Alabama and Louisiana, and more will likely win elections in 24 with the playing field slightly less prejudiced. You guys were cheating hard all over the South and still losing, the next election may be Republican’s last. Libertarianism is becoming more popular! 🤦‍♂️ 😂 thanks Trump.

D’oh! Sounds like he just admitted to making copies of classified documents/“different plans” in a recent Fox digital interview. He says “what was said was absolutely fine and very perfectly”.

My “I boy”? You’ll have to explain this conspiracy speak. I don’t speak Qnutjob.

McCarthy got a smack down as I understand it, losing control of the house completely to have this kindergarten revenge vote even taken, his expression shows it. He’s not going to last.

Big smack down. The hypocritical moronic liars say he lied…officially by 4 votes on party lines. They are open that this is pure retaliation for leading a investigation into Trump’s campaign and Russia, an investigation that uncovered an insane amount of previously unknown Russian interference in the 2016 election all to benefit Trump from social media trolling campaigns to actively hacking Trump’s opponents repeatedly and publishing the stolen data directly at his public request, numerous unreported financial ties to Russia through his campaign, meetings in person with Trump and Russians at his home (Trump tower) specifically to gain “dirt” on Clinton in some secret international information for favors trade, the campaign involvement in Russia/Wikileaks, Flynn’s illegal negotiations with Russia before Trump took office and his lies about those negotiations, and I forget how many convictions over these charges against high ranking administration officials. He takes it as a badge of honor.
There are no legal or financial consequences that come with a reprimand or censure, and it won’t negatively affect his electability one whit….it might help. Pretty much just like the big win against Hunter. A nothing burger.
Yes, he will probably lose some committee seats like Greene (actually reports say not, he keeps his seat and powers 😂). Nothing the house passes will pass the senate anyway, no huge loss.

Precedent set, be prepared to lose all committee seats in 25 when the right loses their last bit of power.…no whining. (I know you won’t be able to help it). Every Republican has misled the public and house, every Republican has violated ethics rules. They should all be censured. Turnabout is fair play.

For you


You must be proud your “team” has worked so hard to get this important legislation passed…no…I mean has uncovered this anti American plot in congress…no…I mean has struck a serious blow in their culture wars….no…I mean passed this silly infantile resolution that would be embarrassing from a first grade school government. They must have decided the President, country, and government are doing fine, no need to actually legislate anything. Time for playground fighting (Boebert and Greene didn’t get enough and started their own curse laden playground fight on the floor over who gets to try to impeach Biden next and who copied whose articles of impeachment). 😂

Ever heard the term “pyrrhic victory”?