The question isn't whether you can be good without God. Atheists and agnostics can do good works as much as anyone else can. They love, they have kindness and compassion, and so on.

Do you know that if, when I died, I arrived at Heavens gate and I met Jesus..and He asked me this question "Why should I let you into My Heaven?" and my answer was, "because of all of the good things I did", He wouldn't let me in?

Why is that? Atheists and most religious people actually have something in common; a fundamental misconception of what goodness is.

Most people have a list of certain crimes in their mind that, so long as they have not committed them, they consider themselves to be good people. They'll say to themselves "I'm a good person. I haven't killed anyone." "I may not be perfect but I am no Hitler or Stalin". Or, they think if their good deeds outweigh their bad deeds, they're good people. There are some religions like that.

It's a relative goodness. Most everyone will acknowledge that they've done some wrong, but most will tell you far more right than wrong.

The problem with a relative goodness is that is all it is; it is relatively good. It is only good some of time. That is how human beings are. Goodness in Gods eyes is not relatively good, it is perfectly good. That is why the bible says there is no one good except God. The reason why Jesus won't let me into Heaven based on my performance is because once I've sinned even once I have failed to meet Gods standard; moral perfection. That is the only thing God considers good. Once there is a fly in the ointment, it is ruined.

The inference here is, if that is true then no one can get into Heaven. That's the dilemma, and that is why God sent His Son to die for our sins on a cross. Jesus had met Gods moral standard, He had never sinned. He was Gods spotless lamb, qualified to be a sacrifice for our sins on our behalf, taking the punishment that we deserve. Because of sin we are disqualified but Jesus qualifies us, that is why we need Him, why He is the Messiah.

Because Jesus took the punishment for our sins, when we believe in Him as Lord and Savior, God can forgive our sins and impute the righteousness of Christ to us. God counts our faith in Jesus Christ as righteousness. Not because we ourselves are righteous, but because He is righteous and our faith is counted towards us as righteousness. It is a legal transaction, once we believe God can dismiss our case because justice has been done for our sins by the atoning death of Jesus Christ.

So, when Jesus asks me why I should be allowed in, the only possible answer is this: "I am not worthy to get in; it is your righteousness counted to me that will open these gates. You died for my sins and rose the third day; I believed your gospel and received you as my Lord and Savior."

Atheists can be good without God, so can hindus, buddhists and even Christians. The trouble isn't whether they can be good, the trouble is that it isn't good enough.

@shinyblurry

There's a question that causes debate among many believers, and that is the age old question... Are Jesus and God the same? Well, it does say that "for God so loved the world he gave his only begotten son", so naturally you would think the answer is a simple no.

But as nearly ever other aspect of Christianity goes, it's not that simple. For some reason Christians think Jesus is God, God is Jesus, and so on. Yet, they cannot back up this belief with anything from the Bible. There are so many things one can use to show that Jesus was not God, but none to the contrary.

Of course one of the first things you come across would be the concept of an infinite God in a finite body. I understand the argument of God being non-physical, and thus size would not be an issue. But what about other human limitations shown by Jesus. Primarily dying. Why would God become a person, just to die, therefore destroying any beliefs that this guy was God? Well, at least it should have destroyed beliefs. The only reasonable thing would be to survive death and live forever on earth to prove that you are God. Hell, if there was a 2000 year old man who could document it and that had public records of... I'd believe in God.

The main thing is that Jesus never called himself God, never insinuated he was God. He mostly referred to himself as Son of Man. Now people often cite various biblical verses with sayings like "I and the father are one" and that you can't get to the father without Jesus. But regardless of how much those who would like to believe it as being Jesus saying he is God close their eyes and wish. It will never be an admittance of being God.

Many of gurus, and well, anyone who has found the zone have become one with something. Be it a monk trying to be one with the universe, or Wayne Gretzky being one with his hockey stick. It's a common saying of something being so familiar to you that it's nearly a part of you. Jesus was only saying that he knows God so well, that God has become a part of him. Now for some on topic humor. What did the Guru say to the pizza man? Make me one with everything.

Now how do people think that because Jesus said that the only way to get to the father is through him, that he said he was God? Who knows? All he was saying was that he was the guide to God, follow him and you will see God. It's like that Heavens Gate guy said that he was the way to get to the Hale Bop comet, he wasn't saying that he was the Hale Bop comet.

I don't like nativity scenes in public/government places. Where do you draw the 'religion in government' line, Christian holidays, Islamic holiday's, Jewish holidays, Hindu holidays, Heavens Gate holidays? Sorry Pat but it is better to remove ALL religious oriented holiday's from the public sphere. Everyone is free to celebrate what they wish and when --- PRIVATELY. No single religious group should be represented over another when religion is at the center of the public/taxpayer/government property discussion. The only logical choice is to remove all religion from government and taxpayer supported venues. Let people celebrate their religions anyway they wish PRIVATELY.

Government and those things supported by taxpayer dollars must be free of religion in order to be fair to everyone.

*dupeof=http://videosift.com/video/Heavens-Gate-Cult

This video has been nominated as a duplicate of this video by kulpims. If this nomination is seconded with *isdupe, the video will be killed and its votes transferred to the original.

You can't be atheist AND agnostic. That's just downright silly. I say this in the kindliest way possible.

But, seriously, Ace, I like you. You give me a good challenge. I was delighted to see that you lost your faith because of the age-old "problem of evil," which is the name for the whole hell+justgod=wtf? phenomenon you described. I wrote a ridiculously long paper on JUST THAT TOPIC about a year ago. Did you know that Mormon theology actually solves that problem? This is what got me so into that book, Mormon Doctrine. I'M NOT EVEN KIDDING. It's crazy! I can send you my paper sometime if you want.

The dilemna is:

1. All-good
2. All-powerful
3. Evil exists

Does that look familiar? Man, I love this stuff. I don't want to convert you or anything, I just find it incredibly interesting to talk about. We should chat.

In reply to this comment by theaceofclubz:
I left this response recently on pinky's page in response to her critique on http://www.videosift.com/video/What-Mormon-Theology-Is-Really-All-About-1975 and thought it was applicable to the thread so I am pasting it.

"After watching the video it was my intention to write a scathing refutation of the blasphemy. However, after doing a little web searching I found the facts weren't going to support me. First the only glaring inaccuracies I found in the video were:

Mormons don't believe that physical sex took place between Mary and Heavenly Father. Jesus was definitely the son of the father and impregnation occurred somehow but the Mary is a virgin thing is still in effect so I think it rules out a physical union. I'm not completely 100% on this though, so I'm going to ask my mom tomorrow.

The quote at the end by Joe is almost certainly fake, but I have no proof of this and may be wrong.

On the more shocking theology that isn't necessarily broached in Sunday School:

Elohim - Yup, thats Gods name. It also refers to the belief in multiple gods that aren't worshiped or thought to have any relevance in earth life. see
http://www.mormonwiki.com/Elohim
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elohim#Elohim_in_the_Latter_Day_Saint_movement

Kolob - Yes, there is literally a freakin' star in the universe that you could literally point to and say "thats where god lives." (Heavens Gate creepy) Its exact location is disputed and not addressed by church authorities, try a search for "Kolob constellation"
http://www.mormonwiki.org/Kolob
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolob#Literal_reading
http://lds.about.com/library/bl/faq/blkolob.htm

Celestial Polygamy - It was my understanding when in the faith that Polygamy was a celestial practice that had be suspended during our time on earth due to prophetic revelation, and that when you do get in heaven men can marry multiple wives, but women can only marry one man. The whole prophetic revelation occurring at the same point in history that the US government made the ultimatum that Mormons had to give up polygamy before they would receive statehood is just seen as a coincidence. (seriously) After searching a little though a guess there is a little dispute over it.
http://www.mormonwiki.org/Celestial_polygamy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_marriage

I'd say that anything not outlined in this message is about 95% accurate, and certainly presented in the most sensationalist fashion.
I wasn't aware of most of this theological stuff while in the church and can understand when Mormons claim its inaccurate. However, if you believe church doctrine to be true then you sort of carry the theology indirectly."

My response to this is/was:

Come back to me with this argument when you've found better sources. A lesson about church doctrine: You cannot believe that Mormons believe it unless you get it straight from the source. That is, it has to come from canonized scripture, church lesson manuals, or at least General Conference talks from the 12 apostles or the prophet. Someone with authority has to have declared that it is doctrine in order to claim that it is doctrine. Okaybee? Wiki does not count. I'm not talking history here. History can be filtered by the church and you can't neccesarily get all of the information from their sources. But doctrine, yes. BECAUSE IT IS ONLY DOCTRINE IF THEY SAY IT IS DOCTRINE, NOT IF YOU SAY IT IS DOCTRINE! Why don't people understand this about religion? Catholics are often the victims of this, too. You can site as many sources as you want, but it isn't church doctrine unless it is official church doctrine. I can't stress this enough. And I have a feeling some people will still fail to understand it.

>> ^theaceofclubz:
I left this response recently on pinky's page in response to her critique on http://www.videosift.com/video/What-Mormon-Theology-Is-Really-All-About-1975 and thought it was applicable to the thread so I am pasting it.
"After watching the video it was my intention to write a scathing refutation of the blasphemy. However, after doing a little web searching I found the facts weren't going to support me. First the only glaring inaccuracies I found in the video were:
Mormons don't believe that physical sex took place between Mary and Heavenly Father. Jesus was definitely the son of the father and impregnation occurred somehow but the Mary is a virgin thing is still in effect so I think it rules out a physical union. I'm not completely 100% on this though, so I'm going to ask my mom tomorrow.
The quote at the end by Joe is almost certainly fake, but I have no proof of this and may be wrong.
On the more shocking theology that isn't necessarily broached in Sunday School:
Elohim - Yup, thats Gods name. It also refers to the belief in multiple gods that aren't worshiped or thought to have any relevance in earth life. see
http://www.mormonwiki.com/Elohim
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elohim#Elohim_in_the_Latter_Day_Saint_movement
Kolob - Yes, there is literally a freakin' star in the universe that you could literally point to and say "thats where god lives." (Heavens Gate creepy) Its exact location is disputed and not addressed by church authorities, try a search for "Kolob constellation"
http://www.mormonwiki.org/Kolob
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolob#Literal_reading
http://lds.about.com/library/bl/faq/blkolob.htm
Celestial Polygamy - It was my understanding when in the faith that Polygamy was a celestial practice that had be suspended during our time on earth due to prophetic revelation, and that when you do get in heaven men can marry multiple wives, but women can only marry one man. The whole prophetic revelation occurring at the same point in history that the US government made the ultimatum that Mormons had to give up polygamy before they would receive statehood is just seen as a coincidence. (seriously) After searching a little though a guess there is a little dispute over it.
http://www.mormonwiki.org/Celestial_polygamy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_marriage
I'd say that anything not outlined in this message is about 95% accurate, and certainly presented in the most sensationalist fashion.
I wasn't aware of most of this theological stuff while in the church and can understand when Mormons claim its inaccurate. However, if you believe church doctrine to be true then you sort of carry the theology indirectly."

Come back to me with this argument when you've found better sources. A lesson about church doctrine: You cannot believe that Mormons believe it unless you get it straight from the source. That is, it has to come from canonized scripture, church lesson manuals, or at least General Conference talks from the 12 apostles or the prophet. Someone with authority has to have declared that it is doctrine in order to claim that it is doctrine. Okaybee? Wiki does not count.

In reply to this comment by theaceofclubz:
After watching the video it was my intention to write a scathing refutation of the blasphemy. However, after doing a little web searching I found the facts weren't going to support me. First the only glaring inaccuracies I found in the video were:

Mormons don't believe that physical sex took place between Mary and Heavenly Father. Jesus was definitely the son of the father and impregnation occurred somehow but the Mary is a virgin thing is still in effect so I think it rules out a physical union. I'm not completely 100% on this though, so I'm going to ask my mom tomorrow.

The quote at the end by Joe is almost certainly fake, but I have no proof of this and may be wrong.

On the more shocking theology that isn't necessarily broached in Sunday School:

Elohim - Yup, thats Gods name. It also refers to the belief in multiple gods that aren't worshiped or thought to have any relevance in earth life. see
http://www.mormonwiki.com/Elohim
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elohim#Elohim_in_the_Latter_Day_Saint_movement

Kolob - Yes, there is literally a freakin' star in the universe that you could literally point to and say "thats where god lives." (Heavens Gate creepy) Its exact location is disputed and not addressed by church authorities, try a search for "Kolob constellation"
http://www.mormonwiki.org/Kolob
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolob#Literal_reading
http://lds.about.com/library/bl/faq/blkolob.htm

Celestial Polygamy - It was my understanding when in the faith that Polygamy was a celestial practice that had be suspended during our time on earth due to prophetic revelation, and that when you do get in heaven men can marry multiple wives, but women can only marry one man. The whole prophetic revelation occurring at the same point in history that the US government made the ultimatum that Mormons had to give up polygamy before they would receive statehood is just seen as a coincidence. (seriously) After searching a little though a guess there is a little dispute over it.
http://www.mormonwiki.org/Celestial_polygamy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_marriage

I'd say that anything not outlined in this message is about 95% accurate, and certainly presented in the most sensationalist fashion.
I wasn't aware of most of this theological stuff while in the church and can understand when Mormons claim its inaccurate. However, if you believe church doctrine to be true then you sort of carry the theology indirectly.

Keep in mind that this theology rests on top of the church history, which is also more shockingly ridiculous then the general joe on the street has any idea of.


In reply to this comment by thepinky:
Wow. This is extremely inaccurate. I don't even know where to begin. Lies, people. Don't believe a word of it!!!

I left this response recently on pinky's page in response to her critique on http://www.videosift.com/video/What-Mormon-Theology-Is-Really-All-About-1975 and thought it was applicable to the thread so I am pasting it.

"After watching the video it was my intention to write a scathing refutation of the blasphemy. However, after doing a little web searching I found the facts weren't going to support me. First the only glaring inaccuracies I found in the video were:

Mormons don't believe that physical sex took place between Mary and Heavenly Father. Jesus was definitely the son of the father and impregnation occurred somehow but the Mary is a virgin thing is still in effect so I think it rules out a physical union. I'm not completely 100% on this though, so I'm going to ask my mom tomorrow.

The quote at the end by Joe is almost certainly fake, but I have no proof of this and may be wrong.

On the more shocking theology that isn't necessarily broached in Sunday School:

Elohim - Yup, thats Gods name. It also refers to the belief in multiple gods that aren't worshiped or thought to have any relevance in earth life. see
http://www.mormonwiki.com/Elohim
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elohim#Elohim_in_the_Latter_Day_Saint_movement

Kolob - Yes, there is literally a freakin' star in the universe that you could literally point to and say "thats where god lives." (Heavens Gate creepy) Its exact location is disputed and not addressed by church authorities, try a search for "Kolob constellation"
http://www.mormonwiki.org/Kolob
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolob#Literal_reading
http://lds.about.com/library/bl/faq/blkolob.htm

Celestial Polygamy - It was my understanding when in the faith that Polygamy was a celestial practice that had be suspended during our time on earth due to prophetic revelation, and that when you do get in heaven men can marry multiple wives, but women can only marry one man. The whole prophetic revelation occurring at the same point in history that the US government made the ultimatum that Mormons had to give up polygamy before they would receive statehood is just seen as a coincidence. (seriously) After searching a little though a guess there is a little dispute over it.
http://www.mormonwiki.org/Celestial_polygamy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_marriage

I'd say that anything not outlined in this message is about 95% accurate, and certainly presented in the most sensationalist fashion.
I wasn't aware of most of this theological stuff while in the church and can understand when Mormons claim its inaccurate. However, if you believe church doctrine to be true then you sort of carry the theology indirectly."

After watching the video it was my intention to write a scathing refutation of the blasphemy. However, after doing a little web searching I found the facts weren't going to support me. First the only glaring inaccuracies I found in the video were:

Mormons don't believe that physical sex took place between Mary and Heavenly Father. Jesus was definitely the son of the father and impregnation occurred somehow but the Mary is a virgin thing is still in effect so I think it rules out a physical union. I'm not completely 100% on this though, so I'm going to ask my mom tomorrow.

The quote at the end by Joe is almost certainly fake, but I have no proof of this and may be wrong.

On the more shocking theology that isn't necessarily broached in Sunday School:

Elohim - Yup, thats Gods name. It also refers to the belief in multiple gods that aren't worshiped or thought to have any relevance in earth life. see
http://www.mormonwiki.com/Elohim
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elohim#Elohim_in_the_Latter_Day_Saint_movement

Kolob - Yes, there is literally a freakin' star in the universe that you could literally point to and say "thats where god lives." (Heavens Gate creepy) Its exact location is disputed and not addressed by church authorities, try a search for "Kolob constellation"
http://www.mormonwiki.org/Kolob
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolob#Literal_reading
http://lds.about.com/library/bl/faq/blkolob.htm

Celestial Polygamy - It was my understanding when in the faith that Polygamy was a celestial practice that had be suspended during our time on earth due to prophetic revelation, and that when you do get in heaven men can marry multiple wives, but women can only marry one man. The whole prophetic revelation occurring at the same point in history that the US government made the ultimatum that Mormons had to give up polygamy before they would receive statehood is just seen as a coincidence. (seriously) After searching a little though a guess there is a little dispute over it.
http://www.mormonwiki.org/Celestial_polygamy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_marriage

I'd say that anything not outlined in this message is about 95% accurate, and certainly presented in the most sensationalist fashion.
I wasn't aware of most of this theological stuff while in the church and can understand when Mormons claim its inaccurate. However, if you believe church doctrine to be true then you sort of carry the theology indirectly.

Keep in mind that this theology rests on top of the church history, which is also more shockingly ridiculous then the general joe on the street has any idea of.


In reply to this comment by thepinky:
Wow. This is extremely inaccurate. I don't even know where to begin. Lies, people. Don't believe a word of it!!!

Another crazy ass cult lead by a charismatic manipulative asshole. The leader had a history of announcing "The UFO is coming". I saw an interview with two people who were teenage members of a UFO cult in the 70s. It was lead by the leader of heavens gate (Do?).

He had everyone assembled at a specific location in the 70's waiting for the UFO to pick them up. It didnt show...

So the cult dissolved, he was made look the fraud he was. Years later when those two people saw this on the news they said something like, Well he found a way that he wont have to face being wrong again.