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Liberal Redneck - Muslim Ban
enoch@transmorpher
i would say we disagree but i cant even say that.
you didn't counter ANYTHING i said,you just accused me of being dishonest.
which has been pretty much your position this entire thread.i thought i was doing you a solid by laying down some history,which helps explain some facets of radical islam.
notice my wording:facets.
do you realize that i taught comparative religion and cultural religious history?
do you realize just how foolish you appear to me right now?
you want to counter my argument....by not countering my argument,and implying i am being dishonest.
ok sweetheart,
i think i see the problem here.
YOU are seeing the dynamic through a singular lens.
you want to ignore the historical implications and simply focus on islam itself?
ok,that's fine.
i find it stupid,short sighted and incredibly biased,but whatever..
yoooou have an agenda to get to don't ya?
ok.
then let us just strip the dynamic of ALL historical implications and focus solely on islam itself.
(which is why you mentioned Maajid Nawaz, and Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Sam Harris, Hitchens )
you clever clever boy...
i see what you did there../ruffles hair.
you are SO adorable when you are being myopic and lazy!
so what would you like to discuss?
how islam is in desperate need of a reformation?
or maybe how the original intent of islam from a spiritual perspective was hi-jacked by his cousins and turned into a political conquest machine,that subjugated ...
you know what?
why am i bothering?
you have revealed yourself to be a condescending,sanctimonious know-nothing.who read a couple of books and thinks he 'get's it".
no dude..you read sam harris.
look man,
i am not here defending islam,because as religions go,islam is kinda shit.
but to ignore how neoliberalism and american interventionism have amplified,and worsened and already crappy situation.
that's not even intellectually dishonest.
that is just plain lazy.
whats next?
you gonna do some 'thought experiments" and try to argue that at least america's "intentions" were nobel?
you WERE! weren't you!!
and this little revisionist nugget "Those countries have had problems long before any western intervention."
oooh really?
because,unlike YOU,i actually know the history of that region.
so if you want we can compare how some cities and countries were considered "progressive" and even "liberal",and even some (granted,only a few) that were considered "secular" *gasp*.
how about this,instead of me repeatedly taking you to the woodshed to give ya some of that "learnin",how about you just go look up the history of kabul,afghanistan.
that's it.just one city.
and then come back and tell me that neoliberalism,colonialism and good old fashioned empire building hasn't been a major force in the rise in fundamentalism and radicalization in the middle east.
it looks like you really ARE going to make go all the way back to the dark ages!
and dude..seriously..hitchens ROCKED,but sam harris?
no..juuust no.
i don't do apologists as a counter argument.
edit:i will say that i agree with this "There are actual muslims (such as Maajid Nawaz)that say islam has a problem(especially particular strands of it), and it needs reform. Embracing the muslims who want reform is the only way forward."
you mean that islam may need a reformation?
*gasps*/clasps hands to face.
didn't i fucking already SAY that?
ah well,foiled by my pedantic ways.
Liberal Redneck - Muslim Ban
transmorpher says...Those countries have had problems long before any western intervention.
Again, this is the left being dishonest. Please stop doing it, you're only making things worse for the refugees by fueling the far right.
There are actual muslims (such as Maajid Nawaz)that say islam has a problem(especially particular strands of it), and it needs reform. Embracing the muslims who want reform is the only way forward.
EDIT: Everything you've said has been rebutted by Maajid Nawaz, and Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Sam Harris, Hitchens and so on.
radical islamic terrorism is the usage of a rigid fundamentalist interpretation as a justification predicated on abysmal politics.
ill-thought and short sighted politics is the tinder.
hyper-extremist fundamentalism is the match.
ISIS would never even have existed without al qeada,who themselves would not have existed without US interventionism into:iran,egypt and saudi arabia.
and this is going back almost 70 years.
so lets cut the shit with apologetics towards americas horrific blunders in regards to foreign policy.actions have consequences,there is a cause and effect,and when even in the 50's the CIA KNEW,and have stated as much,that there would be "blowback" from americas persistent interventionism in those regions.which stated goals (in more honest times) was to destabilize,dethrone (remove leaders not friendly to american business) and install leaders more pliant and easily manipulated (often times deposing democratically elected leaders to install despots.the shah and sadam come to mind).
see:chalmers johnson-blowback
see: Zbigniew Brzezinski-the grand chessboard.
or read this article:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/america-created-al-qaeda-and-the-isis-terror-group/5402881
so to act like islamic radicals just fell from the fucking sky,and popped out from thin air,due to something that has been boiling for almost 70 years is fucking ludicrous.
radicalization of certain groups in populations have long been understood,and well documented.
and religion,though the most popular,and easiest tool to motivate and justify heinous acts of violence for a political goal,is not the SOLE tool.
nationalism is another tool used to radicalize a population.
see:the nazi party.
but it always comes down to:tribalism of one kind or another.
@transmorpher
so when you use this "ISIS themselves, in their own magazine (Dabiq) go out of their way to explain that they are not motivated by the xenophobia or the US fighting wars in their countries. They make specifically state that their motivation is simply because you aren't muslim. You can go an read it for yourself. They are self confessed fanatics that need to kill you to go to heaven. "
to solidify your argument,all i see is someone ignoring the history and pertinent reasons why that group even exists.
you may recall that ISIS was once Al qeada,and they were SO radical,SO fanatical and SO violent in their execution of religious zeal..that even al qeada had to distance themselves.
because,again...
religion is used as the justification to enact terrorism due to bad politics.
but the GOAL is always political.
you may remember that in the early 90's the twin towers were attacked and it was the first time americans heard of al qeada,and osama bil laden.
who made a statement back in 1993 and then reiterated in 2001 after 9/11 that the stated goal (one of them at least) was for the removal of ALL american military presence in saudi arabia (there was more,but it mostly dealt with american military presence in the middle east).
but where did this osama dude come from?
why was he so pissed at america?
just what was this dudes deal?
turns out he was already on the road to radicalization during the 80's.coming from an extremely wealthy saudi arabian family but had become extremely religious,and he saw western interventionism as a plague,and western culture as a disease.
he left the comforts of his extremely wealthy family to fight against this western incursion into his religious homeland.he traveled to afghanistan to join the mujahideen to combat the russians,who were actually fighting the americans in a proxy war.and WE trained osama.WE armed him and trained him in the tactics of warfare to,behind the scenes,slowly drain russia of resources in our 50 year long cold war.
how's that for irony.
osama was not,as american media like to paint the picture "anti-democratic or anti-freedom".he saw the culture of consumerism,greed and sexual liberation as an affront to his religious understandings.
this attitude can be directly linked to sayyid qtib from egypt.who visited the united states as an exchange student in 1954.now he wasnt radicalized yet,but when he returned to egypt he didnt recognize his own country.
he saw coco cola signs everywhere,and women wearing shorts skirts,and jukeboxs playing that devils music "rock and roll".
he feared for his country,his neighbors,his community.
just like a southern baptist fears for your soul,sayyid feared for the soul of his country and that this new "westernization" was a direct threat to the tenants laid down by islam.
so he began to speak out.
he began to hold rallies challenging the leadership to turn away from this evil,and people started to take notice,and some people agreed.
change does not come easy for some people,and this is especially true for those who hold strong religious ideologies.
(insert religion here) tends to be extremely traditional.
so sayyid started to gain popularity for his challenge if this new "westernization",and this did not go un-noticed by the egyptian leadership,who at that time WANTED western companies to invest in egypt.(that whole political landscape is totally different now,but back then egypt was fairly liberal,and moderately secular).
so instead of allowing sayyid to speak his mind.
they threw him in prison.
for 4 years.
in solitary.
well,he wasn't radicalized when he went IN to prison,but when he came OUT he sure was.
and to shorten this story,sayyid was the first founder of the muslim brotherhood,whose later incarnation broke off to form?
can you guess?
i bet you can!
al qeade
@Fairbs ,@newtboy and @Asmo have all laid out points why radicalization happens,and the conditions that can enflame and amplify that radicalization.
so i wont repeat what they have already said.
but let us take dearborn michigan as an example.
the largest muslim community in america.
how many terrorists come from dearborn?
how many radicals reside there?
how many mosque preach intolerance and "death to america"?
how many imams quietly sanction fatwas from the local IHOP against american imperialistic pigs?
none.
becuase if you live in stable community,with a functioning government,and you are able to find work and support your family,and your kids can get an education.
the chances of you become radicalized is pretty much:zippo.
the specific religion has NOTHING to do with terrorism.
religion is simply the means in which the justifications to enact violent atrocities is born.
it's the politics stupid.
you could do a thought experiment and flip the religions around,but keep the same political parameters and do you know WHAT we find?
that the terrorists would be CHRISTIAN terrorists.
or do i really need to go all the way back to the fucking dark ages to make my point?
it's
the
politics
stupid.
Liberal Redneck - Muslim Ban
transmorpher says...I'm really only regurgetating what people like Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Sam Harris, Maajid Nawaz, Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins have said in their books and podcasts. So I'll direct you there, as they articulate it way better than me.
There is also http://www.pewresearch.org/topics/muslims-and-islam/ which the statistics are quite alarming, and the left choose to ignore many of these. They assume that everyone in the world is a good person, and that they would do good if they had the same opportunities. It's simply not the case.
All religions are not equal either (and I'm a staunch atheist), and neither are all cultures.
We might not have a perfect world, but it's dishonest to try to claim that everything and everyone is the same. It's dishonest to ignore that the majority of the world has decided to stop stoning gays, crucifying human rights protesters, and treating women worse than dogs. Just to name a few things.
That's a convenient, but likely baseless claim. Do you have any peer reviewed studies to back it up?
It's the same thing that allows it in every religion. Immoral people assume leadership positions and instruct faithful to act atrociously. Christianity was just as inhumane, the phrase isn't "nobody expects the Muslim inquisition". It's misguided to get myopic about history in order to demonize one religion, they all fall into this pitfall, it's the nature of blind faith that it's easily abused.
A good question might be what is it about religion that it makes normal people act as if they have mental issues, and I think I just answered that.
Looking at the issue honestly, not biased against "them", is essential. It allows you to ask "did my culture find a way to stop this behavior, and if so, how." Since no culture seems 100% free from it, pointing fingers isn't helpful. Since it's true that they aren't the only ones to "be bad", how is it dishonest? What fact does it ignore?
The left is not the factually challenged side of the two. The left believes science, the right doesn't. Issue settled.
enoch
(Member Profile)
siftbotYour video, sam harris on the religion of identity politics, has made it into the Top 15 New Videos listing. Congratulations on your achievement. For your contribution you have been awarded 1 Power Point.
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sam harris on the religion of identity politics
ChaosEngineThe one time he allows for a persons life experience, he gets it wrong.
"My mom is Catholic and she believes in hell" is absolutely NOT a valid response to "Catholics don't believe in hell". For someone who believes in data, that's a terrible response. It's a sample size of one out of over 1 billion. And if you were to dig up the canonical Catholic teaching on hell, that STILL wouldn't be the right data (the argument was "Catholics don't believe in hell", not "Catholicism does not teach the concept of hell". Even if you were to say "actually every Catholic I know believes in hell" that's still not a valid argument, unless you know thousands of Catholics.
I've lost a lot of respect for Sam Harris over the years and this just reinforces that.
Of course, data is important, especially when it comes to things like whether vaccines cause autism (they don't).
But if you're talking about things like how police treat black people or whether women are paid less in the workplace... the life experience of those people are a vital part of the data, especially when the data isn't clear cut.
Compelling Evidence Lion King Ripped Off The Matrix
TheFreakClearly everything is The Matrix though. Don't believe me?
Hamlet = The Matrix
Dark City = The Matrix
The New Testament = The Matrix
Plato's Allegory of the Cave = The Matrix
When Harry Met Sally = The Matrix
The last Presidential election = Idiocracy
...
The Invisibles = The Matrix
I do not really exist, I am merely a construct meant to distract you from the truth of your existence... = The Matrix
I rest my case.
Really Lion king is Hamlet. Matrix seemed pretty similar to dark city to me (and also the guy who wrote that article).
Suicide Bombings and Islam: An Apologist's Guide
RFlaggThank you @enoch, I was trying to figure a way of replying on how there isn't a denial that a minority of Muslims believe in suicide bombing, but that it isn't as widespread and exclusive to Islam as the far right make it out to be. You summed it up pretty well.
I was also going to add all the abortion clinic bombings and the Atlanta Centennial Olympic Park bombing... all Christian and being done in the name of Christ. Then in Ireland/UK with the IRA... though that one isn't just religion and is more political (though again, many of those political differences has to do with worshiping Christ the wrong way).
There are militant Buddhist too, who do very violent and aggressive acts against others.
And there are plenty on the left who decry Islam, look at Sam Harris by example who argues the danger of Islam a great deal.
I agree, that we need to address the underlying political issues... and sometimes just need to let things go. There is a big civil war going on the middle east between denominations of Islam, and we are picking a side, which in turn makes us a target of the other side. We ignore the fact that the goal of terrorist groups is to make it an "us vs them" world, so that it makes it easier to recruit potentially radicalizeable people. I hear Christians bemoan how Christianity must be true because of all the persecution, proves Satan is trying to push Christianity down, but then they have zero empathy for how it must feel for a Muslim, and the persecution they feel, and how that must make them feel they are the right one for the same exact reasoning.
The fact so many Christians are not only willing, but calling for a war, for a new Crusade basically, shows that Christians are just as easily radicalized. They may not be strapping bombs to their chests yet, but I'd guess if they were in a Muslim country and felt they were being repressed, then I'd wager they'd be more than willing to engage in suicide bombs.
The pint being, yes, some Muslims do engage in suicide bombs, but it isn't just them. Christians have done it plenty in the past, and will undoubtedly return to it again, especially as the more radicalized and violent portion of them become normalized here in the US thanks to the election of Trump who encouraged them all through his campaign.
Zurich is ready for the end of the world
SFOGuyPlace de la Concorde Suisse...John McPhee's book exploring Swiss...paranoia...
---All military age men have an automatic weapon at home; the penalties for using it or even open the ammunition other than military duty are severe
---The bridges and tunnels in to the country are rigged with places for Swiss Army Engineers to stick explosives and drop them all
---Airbases tucked into mountain sides; not nuke proof; but damn hard to get at any other way
etc
etc
etc
"in Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock. "
Harry Lime; Orson Well's "The Third Man"...
Bruno Mars Carpool Karaoke
MordhausMaybe, but realistically, they won't. Here is a list of the most popular hits of 1916, let me know which ones you hear people singing today.
"O Sole Mio" by Enrico Caruso
"Santa Lucia" by Enrico Caruso
"Somewhere a Voice is Calling" by John McCormack
"Where Did Robinson Crusoe Go With Friday On Saturday Night?" by Al Jolson
"I Love A Piano" by Billy Murray
"Pretty Baby" by Billy Murray
"I'm Gonna Make Hay While the Sun Shines in Virginia" by Marion Harris
"Keep the Home Fires Burning ('Till the Boys Comes Home)" by James F. Harrison
"There's A Long Long Trail A-Winding" by James F. Harrison
"Ireland Must Be Heaven, For My Mother Came From There" by Charles Harrison
100 years from now, they will be singing Uptown Funk.
The lead in to that song, and performance of it, is just sooo much fun.
Eroding Electoral Confidence | Full Frontal with Samantha Be
bobknight33First of all passing law to allow pedophiles and perverts in opposite sex bathrooms is wrong.
I'm not rooting for a team. Democrats are just worst. buy an ultra small margin.. They approve low moral standards.
Both are woefully disgusting and hence the ultra low approval ratings and Trump getting in.
I would much rather see more States stand up for States rights and actually limit the FEDs power to 1/2 or more of its current size.
Even better is for News to actually report truth and for the people to stop watching stupid mindless shows ( ie 99% of them) and tune to to what the heck is going on and VOTE. The people represent the "4th" branch of government in a sense. We need to kick out the Harry Reid's and john McCain's of government. They are the truly rich 1% and they did not build shit, they just bought and sold favors at the peoples expense.
With respect to chaos does nto matter where he lives on tihs issue. He was given a video of what is going on and still stood on the side of perverts.
With respect to Trump. Who knows what will unfold. But I do see a bright man who built an empire. That takes skill and ability. Hopefully he will use it to the betterment of the world.
Clinton is and utter disaster of a pick. Corrupt to the core.
The POTUS selection was a no brainier.
Bernie and my pick Cruz would have been an choice. True opposites. One one cheated and one was bullied.
No I am not a republican.. The Bushes were the final straw.
Sadly are only 2 teams and we must pick... Jill Stine No
@bobknight33
you realize chaos is from new zealand right?
so while the democratic party may be a disgrace,unless the party is GLOBAL,it certainly is not HIS party.
i truly do not understand your (or anybodies for that matter) continued loyalty to this broken,dysfunctional and utterly corrupt two party dictatorship.
i have no issue with you pointing out the rot that has been bleeding out the democratic parties metaphorical ass.during this election cycle the DNC was caught with their hand in the cookie jar.they were exposed as the rotten and corrupt institution we all had suspected,but couldn't prove,rigging the primaries,changing the rules of application to keep people off the primary ballot (laurence lessig),and crushing one of the most promising,and politically energized campaigns by bernie sanders.(who,just like ron paul,raised his war chest on small donations).
hell,even the recent jill stein voter recount exposed even MORE DNC voter manipulations and fraud!
but are you SERIOUSLY going to sit there,and with a straight face,attempt to make the case the republicans are better?
that they are NOT just as vile,rapacious and corrupt as the democrats?
you think the democrats are the ONLY half of this two party duopoly that engages in voter fraud?
see:crosscheck
or crushes any politician that does not tow the party line?
see:ron paul
can you REALLY,without any sense of irony or sarcasm,tell me that the republican party represents YOU?
the one thing that has given me hope during this past presidential election is that my fellow americans seem to finally be getting it,finally understanding that neither the democratic party nor the republican party represent "we the people".
they represent:wall street,big banks,the military industrial complex and multi-national corporations.
and of course....their own continued power and political domination.
binary politics does not work anymore.
this false left/right dichotomy does not work anymore.
this "lesser of two evils" is no longer acceptable..any...more.
but i gather it still works for you bob.
what a waste..
you seem a decent sort,but to continue to identify with a party that has thrown you overboard decades ago....is just sad.
and i guess you will be just like those obama voters who became disturbingly silent while obama:expanded executive powers,NDAA of 2012,zero indictments to the criminals on wall street,prosecuting more whistleblowers than any other president combined,obamacare(the biggest gimme to the health insurance industry and big pharma),assasination programs,kill lists,expanding military operations into 6 other sovereign countries,regime change in libya...
those little pussies became good little apologists,and it appears YOU ...
bob..
will become a good little pussy and do your partisan duty,and turn into a dutiful little apologist for trump and the inevitable atrocities that are most certainly heading our way.
you know,i do not always agree with chaos,but at least he has BALLS.he stands for something.
you are just rooting for a certain team,might as well be rooting for the packers.
it is just so tired and WEAK...
eh..maybe you are just messing with chaos,but if that is the case,could you bring a little more flair and energy?
your technique is a tad..stale.
so step it up BOB!
your putting the audience to sleep.
10 Points For Gryffindor
poolcleanerIt seems logically funny -- Harry Potter is a wizard who sympathizes with Muggles and secretly positioned himself to be a suicide bomber.
Those who support magic are liberals and those Muggles who are anti-magic are right-wing. Harry Potter is portrayed as a right-wing extremist, which is a person who would bomb a magic school. Left-wing extremists, those who support the reverse extreme, would bomb a Muggle school. (Like Magneto's stance against non-mutants.)
I don't know why this is funny, but it makes me laugh.
10 Points For Gryffindor
skinnydaddy1 jokingly says...Harry was just sick and tired of "Flick and swish"
The Marvel Symphonic Universe
siftbotTags for this video have been changed from 'Marvel, Soundtrack, Star Wars, James Bond, Harry Potter' to 'Marvel, Soundtrack, Star Wars, James Bond, Harry Potter, Every Frame a Painting' - edited by eric3579
The Marvel Symphonic Universe
nockAn original score and AC/DC aren't the same thing...IMO, John Williams is the most consistent and memorable cinematic composer alive today. Scores for ET, Jurassic Park, Harry Potter, Goonies, Indiana Jones are all evocative.
California Cops Lose It Over a Drone
newtboyA better title might be 'cops bend over and lube up for Harris feed lot owners'. They didn't come out for the drone, they came out in force because the feed lot owners/managers asked them to....over nothing....at least twice.
Fresno police better not EVER claim they are overworked or that there are too few police. If they can come out in such numbers twice for possible trespass in the countryside on public land, they either have way too many officers there with nothing to do, or they are so incompetent that they ignored actual crimes to cow tow to a major local employer. Either case should lead to firings.