>> ^dag:

Don't get me wrong- Communism as a philosophy had a lot going for it- but in practice, as a government --- complete shit.
I suspect the same would be true if we ever got a Libertarian government. Neither philosophy takes into account the human ability to fuck up nice ideas.


Sort of, dag. The first project of the bolsheviks after their revolution was to begin attacking and dismantling the spontaneously created communal/communist democratic farms and gardens, pig iron smelters etc. That wasn't a part of Karl Marx.

I like this - it's very funny in parts: http://www.zcommunications.org/znet/zdebatehorowitz.htm

http://www.zcommunications.org/znet/zdebatehorowitz.htm

Michael Albert debates David Horowitz about Socialism

The question: 'Is Socialism Still on the Agenda?' was put by the New Left Review in 2001. Michael Albert wrote an essay, and a debate ensued between Albert and some other left commentators on the subject. Months later, Horowitz discovered the essay and wrote a brief note to Albert. An extended many-part email debate ensued, that ended up being about participatory economics. What follows below is that exchange...

Re That poster of the Russian octopus: There are old maps from the 50's out there which without irony depict the land mass of communist Russia and China collectively as a very large definite octopus shape, the rest of the land cowering. One for every school...

I can see her in 2012, hammering away at Obama for all the czars he's created. "We're turning into communist Russia OH NO!" It could be the new swiftboat issue! While there may be valid reasons for supporting Palin, there's none contained in the brains of any of these folks. Good material!

In communist Russia, lion plays with you!

Citrohan, it's odd that you would leave out the huge number of democracies in Latin America and Africa that are not perceived as scientifically productive. Many of these democracies have far higher voting participation rates than America, and yet this has not led to any major scientific breakthroughs from these societies. We don't have to constantly judge democracies on a national scale either. We can go city by city, too. How scientifically productive are the democracies of Baltimore or Washington DC, for example?

There are probably more scientific breakthroughs coming from the non-democratic society of China than from all of the democratic societies of Africa and Latin America, too. Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia were capable of far surpassing modern day Africa and Latin America's achievements in science as well. Both societies were probably far more oppressive than, say, Jamaica or Costa Rica. Scientifically speaking though, Nazi Germany and Communist Russia were far more impressive.

As for why I brought up free speech vs democracy, you said this: "It makes totally sense; a free society, where ideas and information can be easily exchanged, coupled with a healthy amount of capital from the private sector to fund research is the best environment for scientific advances."

In this one statement, you seemed to combine free speech, capitalism, and democracy into one whole body that cannot exist separately. I think this is very incorrect. Capitalism and democracy are very much at odds at each other. At best, they are checks against each other's excesses. Free speech is not necessary for either of the two, as well. This is why I don't think science and democracy make sense together. Democracy doesn't care about the truth, it cares about what's popular. Many aspects of science are highly unpopular to this day. One could argue that global environmental catastrophe is approaching quickly, and that this is well known amongst the scientific community, and has been for decades, and yet the world's democracies have done nothing and have basically led us to our doom.

And is capitalism compatible with science? I'm not sure, but I think it's more compatible with science than democracy is. At least capitalism has a kind Social Darwinism going for it, where the uneducated and lazy masses can be tossed aside with little guilt, left to die early in poverty. Scientists seem like elitists just by their nature, able to ply their trade to great economic benefit, rising to the top of the income brackets. Capitalism is very much the ideology of the elites it seems..

>> ^mxxcon:
>> ^xxovercastxx:
This isn't Communist Russia.

it's "Soviet Russia", not communist


Good call. It didn't look right when I wrote it but I didn't know why.

Or he'd be driving a yugo.

>> ^mxxcon:
>> ^xxovercastxx:
This isn't Communist Russia.

it's "Soviet Russia", not communist

>> ^xxovercastxx:

This isn't Communist Russia.

it's "Soviet Russia", not communist

>> ^imstellar28:
>> ^Januari:
Changing the world with cynicism and bitterness... one post at a time...
I'm not cynical or bitter, nor am I trying to change the world; I'm making a pointed political criticism. If you are going to vote for Obama...go into it with the truth, don't play pretend and make believe that you are making "positive change". If you favor socialism, fine. But admit it. Stop trying to make your sh t sandwich look appetizing by putting garnishes on it--accept it for what it is.
"Socialism you can believe in"
And more importantly, stop trying to sell your sh t sandwich as a non-sh t sandwich.


Ayn Rand was a Nazi-fucking whore.

A shit sandwich is what we've gotten from conservative values being dominant in this country for 30 years.

Only someone who's lost their objectivity says the problem is that we haven't yet gone right enough.

Back to Rand though -- she got to experience the horrors of Communist Russia. I don't really blame her for deciding, thenceforth, that anything even slightly like Russia was evil.

Problem is, she had a psychological imbalance on the topic of government, pure and simple.

I could forgive it if it weren't for all the fuckwads like you who felt inspired by her delusions.

From your perspective, you've already lost this election. Both candidates are raving socialists by your definition, in the same sense that New Hampshire is a "southern" state to Sarah Palin.

However, no one new has taken office yet, Bush is still President, and we can both agree that he's a big fat shit sandwich. Start the grieving process now, and take a taste of the new sandwich you're about to be offered. If you don't like it, you can in fact exercise your freedom and leave this country for a better one, if you can find one.

If you don't like it, and choose to keep living here in the heartland of socialism, at least stop trying to spread your misery over the fact that you can't seem to win people over to your way of thinking.

Actually I'd like to thank Communist Russia for keeping them from being a unified country.

In Communist Russia Jason Garfield books you...

darn, he already said that.