>> ^gargoyle:
What would be there difference between "non-religious/secular" and atheist?


I suspect there may be varied opinions on this but I'd wager "non-religious/secular" is referring to people who believe in a creator but don't really follow a specific religion or go to church, while "atheist" would refer to someone who does not believe in gods of any kind.

>> ^Doc_M:
...except for the 77% of us that ARE.
http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html#religions


And half that number who are a constant embarrassment.

77% of the nation is Christian... But of course, we are not a Christian nation. We just have a lot of Christians. You can believe whatever you want here... that's our main selling point.

http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html#religions

>> ^dystopianfuturetoday:

Oh please, dft, don't act as if my point is trite and beneath discussion? You sound like the people from the other party who say we're a Christian nation because the money is printed with 'In God We Trust' and our 'Pledge of Allegiance' says 'One Nation Under God'. To them, the discussion is over, too.

Just because our Congress put 'In God We Trust' on our money does not mean we're a Christian nation, right? And why is that? Because we left a tyrannical EUROPEAN rule with a nationally recognized church, and our founding fathers wanted this new nation to be secular. Funny how Republicans want to rewrite that portion of our history.

And just because our government has voted to increase our taxes, its own size and forces us to pay for new socialized services does not mean this was the intended direction of the nation. Never in a single utterance of our founding fathers did they ever want a socialist nation. Funny how Democrats want to rewrite that portion of our history.

"The government is best which governs least" - Thomas Jefferson

>> ^spoco2:
First Jewish person: Ok, I don't get the arguments of either side there, I don't know what the people were on the street for to begin with, but that sort of hatred and the wishing of death on people is just wrong. Wishing for them to be dead and for their children to piss on their bones? That's not loving, compassionate or right in any sense of the words.
Ahh, Israel vs Palestine... what a happy, fun loving set of people they all are. All those people wishing death on each other. Isn't it grand?
Oh those absolutely disgusting Christians spouting hate and vitriol to children in regards to a children's book. The Harry Potter books are about acceptance of others, they speak of the racism and religious persecution, and that might be why these horrible, narrow minded people are scared of them. Because they say that maybe everyone isn't so damn different, that perhaps people can believe in different things as long as you LET THEM. Don't FORCE your beliefs on people, ESPECIALLY NOT CHILDREN. You're scaring and scarring them for life.
Bush doesn't see the issues in mixing religion and government, and that made him one scary, and terrible leader.
The Westboro Baptist church: A church built on the hatred of one man, and almost entirely peopled by his deluded offspring. Horrible person who is small minded, full of rage, full of hate, and just needs to spout hate to feel alive. Pity them and their lack of people able to live full lives of joy, because they spend all their time being angry.
Haggard and the gay hooker: I don't know HOW people can continue to follow ANY church that has things like this happen. They spend all their time being told that homosexuality is WRONG and SINFUL and disgusting, and yet the LEADER of said church is gay. They have such self loathing for being gay because they believe it to be wrong... but they can't see that the act of being gay, or having feeling towards someone of the same sex IS NOT IN ANY WAY WRONG. What harm does it do? NOTHING.
Religion having any baring AT ALL on scientific eduction is WRONG WRONG WRONG. It is disgusting that it has been allowed to have ANY influence AT ALL.
Trying to suggest that America was founded as a relgious, and christian nation, and in any way created to destroy any other religions IS DISGUSTING AND FALSE. The founding fathers of America saw it as a place TO AVOID persecution. That everyone was FREE TO BELIEVE WHAT THEY WANTED. As long as you do not try to force your religious beliefs on anyone else, then you can believe anything you like.

So, great video for showing all this... And if you're going to say "Hey, why don't they show the pastor from Obama's church at then end too"... well, do we have Obama bringing him up on a stage anywhere and espousing his views as being fantastic and being a great leader? Do we? We have a lot of him denouncing him... I don't know of any doing the opposite.


Good, but I think your wrong on the bush thing, from what I got from his barely coherent ramblings, the idea of a god that he suggested was one that was more akin to an Einstein type god, not one that watches us to see if we have been bad or good, like santa.

That's my interpretation.

* First Jewish person: Ok, I don't get the arguments of either side there, I don't know what the people were on the street for to begin with, but that sort of hatred and the wishing of death on people is just wrong. Wishing for them to be dead and for their children to piss on their bones? That's not loving, compassionate or right in any sense of the words.

* Ahh, Israel vs Palestine... what a happy, fun loving set of people they all are. All those people wishing death on each other. Isn't it grand?

* Oh those absolutely disgusting Christians spouting hate and vitriol to children in regards to a children's book. The Harry Potter books are about acceptance of others, they speak of the racism and religious persecution, and that might be why these horrible, narrow minded people are scared of them. Because they say that maybe everyone isn't so damn different, that perhaps people can believe in different things as long as you LET THEM. Don't FORCE your beliefs on people, ESPECIALLY NOT CHILDREN. You're scaring and scarring them for life.

* Bush doesn't see the issues in mixing religion and government, and that made him one scary, and terrible leader.

* The Westboro Baptist church: A church built on the hatred of one man, and almost entirely peopled by his deluded offspring. Horrible person who is small minded, full of rage, full of hate, and just needs to spout hate to feel alive. Pity them and their lack of people able to live full lives of joy, because they spend all their time being angry.

* Haggard and the gay hooker: I don't know HOW people can continue to follow ANY church that has things like this happen. They spend all their time being told that homosexuality is WRONG and SINFUL and disgusting, and yet the LEADER of said church is gay. They have such self loathing for being gay because they believe it to be wrong... but they can't see that the act of being gay, or having feeling towards someone of the same sex IS NOT IN ANY WAY WRONG. What harm does it do? NOTHING.

* Religion having any baring AT ALL on scientific eduction is WRONG WRONG WRONG. It is disgusting that it has been allowed to have ANY influence AT ALL.

* Trying to suggest that America was founded as a relgious, and christian nation, and in any way created to destroy any other religions IS DISGUSTING AND FALSE. The founding fathers of America saw it as a place TO AVOID persecution. That everyone was FREE TO BELIEVE WHAT THEY WANTED. As long as you do not try to force your religious beliefs on anyone else, then you can believe anything you like.


So, great video for showing all this... And if you're going to say "Hey, why don't they show the pastor from Obama's church at then end too"... well, do we have Obama bringing him up on a stage anywhere and espousing his views as being fantastic and being a great leader? Do we? We have a lot of him denouncing him... I don't know of any doing the opposite.

Hitchens gives other religions a very hard time as well. I think the topic of his coversations in the US center around christianity because it makes up the bulk of theology uin the US. "Last year the First Amendment Center released a poll showing 55 per cent of Americans believe the U.S. was founded as a Christian Nation and that Christianity is embedded in the U.S. " - http://communities.canada.com/vancouversun/blogs/thesearch/archive/2008/09/25/the-u-s-is-not-now-and-never-has-been-a-christian-nation.aspx

Not all religion is about loving people or "(in it's truest form) promotes loving others, and focus on something that more resembles evil." It's mostly a simple way to explain complicated ideas. The problem with the simplicity of it all is that it can be construed to suit the purposes of powerful people to control idiots and promote bigotry. (see prop 8 vote)

I really don't understand why the concept of a democracy within the framework of the constitution is so hard to understand. There is a reason it isn't a true democracy... If it were we'd like no longer be a Union, have slavery, probably end up some kind of 'christian nation'.

Jigga in my opinion is completely correct... it is a democracy... but when the majority votes to negate one of our founding principles... to the detrement of a minority... I think of the constitution as a check against our own human nature at times...

What I really can't understand is the system your ridiculing so much... in this example... is basically an illustration of the checks ensuring that the 'majority' can't simply override a minorities rights by virtue of their being the majority...

And Imstellar again... i find you the ONLY one making hatefull insulting comments... i see no one else doing anything of the sort... you seem to apply those terms to anyone who does not agree with you, completely ignore your own behavior which bordered on little more than a tantrum... and it detracts from any points your trying to make...

Just my opinion

>> ^nibiyabi:
^I wasn't even talking about the video, if you noticed. Who here said that "only atheists should be considered fit to be president"?


I do.

sam harris is awesome. he is a genuine atheist who speaks under pressure as well as he writes, unlike that hack christopher hitchens. if you listen to hitchen's interviews you can tell hes not really even an atheist hes just making a buck off the books.

letter to a christian nation ftw.

The USA IS NOT A CHRISTIAN NATION. The country was founded on a belief that religious expression OF ANY SORT should be free... and it SHOULD NOT BE PART OF POLITICS.

Stop trying to force YOUR beliefs into the whitehouse you narrow minded, fearful people.

Out of context? No, it definitely says you should have slaves and stone people. And How many of those vaunted 10 Commandments are actually worth a damn? Like maybe 5 or 6? The other's are just God being an egotist, and the ones that are left are what we would consider, in the modern day, common sense. Note he doesn't attempt to support Leviticus, because it's chock full of pure evil.

Also good that he specifically notes that Jesus turning the other cheek doesn't apply to Muslim terrorists or other enemies of our pure Christian nation. What a hypocrite Jesus must be!

2) I don't believe in evolution. OK, I agree in general, but does it explain what it aims to accurately and completely? I very much doubt it. In fact I'd be amazed if the original work wasn't mostly discredited by now, just like much of Newton's work, Einstein's work and so on. Darwin's work was certainly a big step in the evolution of knowledge

Why wonder when you can know? I would bet dollars to donuts you don't even understand how evolution works. Reading a wikipedia article on evolution and believing you understand the theory is like.....reading a wikipedia article on quantum mechanics and believing you understand the theory. And no, high school biology does not give a sufficient explanation of the theory...

Atheist attack pack:
How evolution began: "Richard Dawkins: The Blind Watchmaker"
How evolution proceeded, in theory: "Richard Dawkins: The Selfish Gene"
How evolution proceeded, with empirical examples: "Richard Dawkins: Ancestor's Tale"
Why you don't have to be afraid of evolution: "Richard Dawkins: The God Delusion"
How religion began, and proceeded: "Daniel Dennett: Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon"
Why you shouldn't believe in religion: "Sam Harris: Letter to a Christian Nation"

If your religion/current beliefs on evolution can survive that reading list......hats off to your level of conviction/faith/denial.

I guess it's ok to "right off" the first 150 years of american history that were deply inveloped in religiousity when making an argument about riding on the coats of our formers.

Anyway, I will forgive his inconsistancies on religion as just personal bias, the points he makes are still valid. Though, I thought his choice on drugs as the main point of freedom a little pushy. And how does one rate "freedom of the press" on a scale of 1 to anything? It seems at lot of his numbers are dodgy at best. Not to say we can't see the erosion of america around us. Personally, I think it has to do with over federalisation.

Constitutinal republics do great when they aren't poking their heads into everyones business. The problem is we are trying to turn America into a democracy which just ends up in mob rule and oppresion. When the people on one side get in power, they push their legislation that is moraly based, and the other side does the same. We have a battle of moral progressivism and religious conservatives in the US, both trying to domonate eachother with their own oppresive moral code of ethics.

The chrisitans (of which I count myself) are trying to opress everyone with the notion that this is a christian nation and should have christian rules (this I oppose to be clear). And thus installing religious oppresion that which the first ammendment was supposed to protect. And the progressivist are trying to pass their own moral basesless claims like the government should help people with entitlement programs like social security and medical covereage.

The thing people forget is that at heart, this was a country founded on the rights of the one person. A person has all the negative rights he can, and not positve rights. ( a negative right is the right to not have something done to you, a positive right is the right to have something). The christians are trying to have their cake of moral oppresive positive right legislation, and so are the progressivists. It is going to take a huge change in thinking to undo this run away democracy to turn us back into a constitutinal republic.

I for one, was a ron paul fanatic, and was sad to see him lose so badly, but I hope he starts a revolution. For all those who were with him, don't buy into all this mcain and obama hype, they are just more of the same kind.

Anyway, I wasn't with alot of what Maher had to say about this, but he is right, freedom is under attack, and some of the things he supports are attacking it. Get on the ball people,end the rign of oppressive moral legislation and get the government back to what it should be doing, enforcing laws that protect liberty and freedom and life. (live liberty ect ect.)


{ps. anyone know of a good online spell checker? My firefox is buggerd and it spelled checked for me}

Good points all. I'll write more soon.

In reply to this comment by BicycleRepairMan:
Yes I do see a problem with that, I dont blame John McCain for the crusades and I dont blame Cat Stevens for 9/11, but that was not my point, I merely pointed out to you that being an atheist towards the christian god doesnt guarantee a reasonable viewpoint on any other subject. The problem with the "atheist communists" was not that they were too fond of skeptical and critical thinking, these regimes were not beacons of reasonableness, infact they were just the opposite, any critical voice was quelled and expelled or imprisoned or killed.

I am an atheist because I am skeptical by nature, and I want the same skepticism to apply to all ideas, whether its Islam, Christianity, communism or any ideas that I agree with. My biggest problem with religious "faith" is that people who profess it are getting away with outright idiotic statements and actions, simply because its faith. when McCain or Bush or some politician exclaims that "God talks to them" it is to me as absurd as saying that the tooth fairy is to blame for the high oil prices. Yet they get away with it as if it was a completely normal thing to say for a grown man.

They should be met with contempt and ridicule for such statements, not because of the crusades or 9/11, but simply because the statements themselves are ridiculous. There is enough bullshit as it is, and if we dont add an equal opportunity bullshit filter, bullshit is gonna sift through the holes, and we are raising the next generations of people lying to themselves and eachother. Right now there is a 6-lane highway tunnel through the bullshit filter, and that hole is called faith, where ridiculous ideas can march freely without questions, and when we allow that tunnel to be there, anything goes. That means you can have the means and knowhow it takes to design a nuclear bomb, and still believe you get the 72 virgins in paradise, because whatever else youve learned about the world, you've been taught from you were born not to question certain types of claims.

In reply to this comment by quantumushroom:
I understand what you're saying. Do you see anything wrong with lumping all religious peoples with fanatics and rapture nuts?


In reply to this comment by BicycleRepairMan:
Dont forget the atheist crusaders that killed thousands of true muslims, or the hundreds of unbaptised, un-christian suicide bomber atheists that kills true believers in iraq every day. Goddamn atheist scum!

In reply to this comment by quantumushroom:
No, Henning. Atheistic communists alone are responsible for 100 million murdered worldwide.