I see where you're coming from, but I dunno. It just seems like people expect religion to be politically correct when it just cannot be. Wouldn't you agree that there is always a certain amount of self-righteousness to ANY ideology, whether religious or not?

As far as LDS's are concerned, they have the (philosophically sound) notion that there is only one truth. They also believe that they have it. All religions believe that, they just don't know it, and they don't have to deal with the controversy as Mormons do.

Contrary to popular belief, the CJSLDS is one of the few religions that highly discourages speaking badly of other churches and beliefs, and they believe that all people, with the exception of the very vilest of sinners, will be saved from physical death and inherit a kingdom of eternal glory.

In reply to this comment by jonny:
The whole missionary attitude would probably be the biggest thing. Despite repeated references to being non-judgmental in the bible, missionaries in general (and Mormons in particular) seem to have an attitude that is rather negative to those who don't convert. Hypocrisy was not really the right word to use. It's probably fair to say that I'm more irked by the arrogance of those who claim not only to know the mind of God, but to be the only ones who can convey the message accurately or with authority.

In reply to this comment by thepinky:
I'm curious to know what you considered hypocritical.

In reply to this comment by jonny:
I like your posts btw - I was torn between up or downvoting the mormon vid. On the one hand, it is an interesting view inside the church; on the other hand, it is an incredible piece of hypocrisy (even in terms of internal consistency with LDS).

By the way, I meant to say 8 of them touched it and saw it. And sorry for the agnostic/atheist comment. It was stupid.

In reply to this comment by theaceofclubz:
Finally got in contact with my bro, he is a busy man. He said he read several books on the subject but that "An Insider's View of Mormon Origins" by Grant H. Palmer was the best account of the subject.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grant_Palmer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Insider%27s_View_of_Mormon_Origins

A podcast from Grant can be heard at
http://mormonstories.org/?p=92
I'm listening to #3 right now.

For him it held special weight because of Grant's standing in the church. Ironically, his own doubts in the faith began after his sealing to his wife in the Mormon temple. He didn't go into specific details, but did describe it as bizarre. (I couldn't witness it due to not being a believer.)

And just as a note on the 11 witnesses, which you mentioned

"One very big one is that there are ar least 14 other people who saw the plate, 11 of whom gave solemn witness to that fact which can be read in the pages before the Book of Mormon. 3 of them saw it, 11 of them touched it and saw it."

My brother pointed me to http://www.exmormon.org/file9.htm which is a heavily cited article that is reinforced by Grant's podcast.

I too am a junkie of the debate regarding theism. Lately I've been getting my fix at http://www.achristianandanatheist.com/ , I enjoy the civil discussion but am running out of podcasts to listen too.

I have to admit I chuckled a little bit when you mentioned that Mormon theology had solved the problem of evil. I am pretty sure they are not the exclusive to the claim. In my view its whether or not you yourself can reconcile the problem, not the theology. Its whether or not it makes sense to you. That being said I would be very interested in reading your paper on the problem of evil. I promise not to be to mean in my criticisms

Oh, haha. I didn't mean to say that Mormon theology has any kind of corner on the claim, but that their theology, to me, seems to justify it naturally. The reason that I brought it up is because I find it FASCINATING that the basic doctrines treat the problem of evil in a totally different way. Whether you believe it or not is a different issue. I'm not trying to save you, I jsut thought it would be an interesting topic for debate. I've never seen other Christian faiths try to reconcile the problem of evil without falling into one of the traditional arguments, which can all be shattered at the blink of an eye.

You don't have to disprove Mormonism to me. I was just pointing out that the South Park episode was erroneous, because Joseph Smith did provide witnesses. I'm not making a claim about whether or not they really saw them, I'm just stating the fact that South Park was misrepresenting Mormon beliefs and making them seem naive to the point of utter idiocy.

I've been on here way too much and need to do my homework.

I'll catch up with you later on the paper thing.

You can't be atheist AND agnostic. That's just downright silly. I say this in the kindliest way possible.

But, seriously, Ace, I like you. You give me a good challenge. I was delighted to see that you lost your faith because of the age-old "problem of evil," which is the name for the whole hell+justgod=wtf? phenomenon you described. I wrote a ridiculously long paper on JUST THAT TOPIC about a year ago. Did you know that Mormon theology actually solves that problem? This is what got me so into that book, Mormon Doctrine. I'M NOT EVEN KIDDING. It's crazy! I can send you my paper sometime if you want.

The dilemna is:

1. All-good
2. All-powerful
3. Evil exists

Does that look familiar? Man, I love this stuff. I don't want to convert you or anything, I just find it incredibly interesting to talk about. We should chat.

In reply to this comment by theaceofclubz:
I left this response recently on pinky's page in response to her critique on http://www.videosift.com/video/What-Mormon-Theology-Is-Really-All-About-1975 and thought it was applicable to the thread so I am pasting it.

"After watching the video it was my intention to write a scathing refutation of the blasphemy. However, after doing a little web searching I found the facts weren't going to support me. First the only glaring inaccuracies I found in the video were:

Mormons don't believe that physical sex took place between Mary and Heavenly Father. Jesus was definitely the son of the father and impregnation occurred somehow but the Mary is a virgin thing is still in effect so I think it rules out a physical union. I'm not completely 100% on this though, so I'm going to ask my mom tomorrow.

The quote at the end by Joe is almost certainly fake, but I have no proof of this and may be wrong.

On the more shocking theology that isn't necessarily broached in Sunday School:

Elohim - Yup, thats Gods name. It also refers to the belief in multiple gods that aren't worshiped or thought to have any relevance in earth life. see
http://www.mormonwiki.com/Elohim
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elohim#Elohim_in_the_Latter_Day_Saint_movement

Kolob - Yes, there is literally a freakin' star in the universe that you could literally point to and say "thats where god lives." (Heavens Gate creepy) Its exact location is disputed and not addressed by church authorities, try a search for "Kolob constellation"
http://www.mormonwiki.org/Kolob
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolob#Literal_reading
http://lds.about.com/library/bl/faq/blkolob.htm

Celestial Polygamy - It was my understanding when in the faith that Polygamy was a celestial practice that had be suspended during our time on earth due to prophetic revelation, and that when you do get in heaven men can marry multiple wives, but women can only marry one man. The whole prophetic revelation occurring at the same point in history that the US government made the ultimatum that Mormons had to give up polygamy before they would receive statehood is just seen as a coincidence. (seriously) After searching a little though a guess there is a little dispute over it.
http://www.mormonwiki.org/Celestial_polygamy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_marriage

I'd say that anything not outlined in this message is about 95% accurate, and certainly presented in the most sensationalist fashion.
I wasn't aware of most of this theological stuff while in the church and can understand when Mormons claim its inaccurate. However, if you believe church doctrine to be true then you sort of carry the theology indirectly."

Come back to me with this argument when you've found better sources. A lesson about church doctrine: You cannot believe that Mormons believe it unless you get it straight from the source. That is, it has to come from canonized scripture, church lesson manuals, or at least General Conference talks from the 12 apostles or the prophet. Someone with authority has to have declared that it is doctrine in order to claim that it is doctrine. Okaybee? Wiki does not count.

In reply to this comment by theaceofclubz:
After watching the video it was my intention to write a scathing refutation of the blasphemy. However, after doing a little web searching I found the facts weren't going to support me. First the only glaring inaccuracies I found in the video were:

Mormons don't believe that physical sex took place between Mary and Heavenly Father. Jesus was definitely the son of the father and impregnation occurred somehow but the Mary is a virgin thing is still in effect so I think it rules out a physical union. I'm not completely 100% on this though, so I'm going to ask my mom tomorrow.

The quote at the end by Joe is almost certainly fake, but I have no proof of this and may be wrong.

On the more shocking theology that isn't necessarily broached in Sunday School:

Elohim - Yup, thats Gods name. It also refers to the belief in multiple gods that aren't worshiped or thought to have any relevance in earth life. see
http://www.mormonwiki.com/Elohim
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elohim#Elohim_in_the_Latter_Day_Saint_movement

Kolob - Yes, there is literally a freakin' star in the universe that you could literally point to and say "thats where god lives." (Heavens Gate creepy) Its exact location is disputed and not addressed by church authorities, try a search for "Kolob constellation"
http://www.mormonwiki.org/Kolob
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolob#Literal_reading
http://lds.about.com/library/bl/faq/blkolob.htm

Celestial Polygamy - It was my understanding when in the faith that Polygamy was a celestial practice that had be suspended during our time on earth due to prophetic revelation, and that when you do get in heaven men can marry multiple wives, but women can only marry one man. The whole prophetic revelation occurring at the same point in history that the US government made the ultimatum that Mormons had to give up polygamy before they would receive statehood is just seen as a coincidence. (seriously) After searching a little though a guess there is a little dispute over it.
http://www.mormonwiki.org/Celestial_polygamy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_marriage

I'd say that anything not outlined in this message is about 95% accurate, and certainly presented in the most sensationalist fashion.
I wasn't aware of most of this theological stuff while in the church and can understand when Mormons claim its inaccurate. However, if you believe church doctrine to be true then you sort of carry the theology indirectly.

Keep in mind that this theology rests on top of the church history, which is also more shockingly ridiculous then the general joe on the street has any idea of.


In reply to this comment by thepinky:
Wow. This is extremely inaccurate. I don't even know where to begin. Lies, people. Don't believe a word of it!!!

Thank you very much for this comment. I think you make a very valid point, and I didn't see it in that way before. And just to let you know, Mormons believe that virtually all of God's children, Mormon or not, will live eternally in paradises beyond our wildest dreams. It is a common misconception.

I'm glad you like my posts. I try to be of use to the world, but I don't always succeed.

I'm curious to know what you considered hypocritical.

In reply to this comment by jonny:
Not to stick my nose in where it doesn't belong (well, ok, I am quite intentionally doing so, but you know) -

I think that's his ironic point - the Mormon Church is heavily into missionary work. Their missionary work is founded on the pretext that if you have a different faith, you won't just be ridiculed, but be eternal damned. I suspect Don_Juan has faith in little else besides himself and his Laura, but that's just a guess. I'm sure he buys into various cultural paradigms as any human must, but that's not quite the same thing as being so convinced of a spiritual point of view that all those who hold another view are labeled as either lost or redeemable. Just a thought.

I like your posts btw - I was torn between up or downvoting the mormon vid. On the one hand, it is an interesting view inside the church; on the other hand, it is an incredible piece of hypocrisy (even in terms of internal consistency with LDS). So, I didn't vote either way. I suspect its religiously "controversial" nature should get it right onto the front page. [edit] yep! I was right!

In reply to this comment by thepinky:
Please don't make belittling and insulting comments about people's faith. It's cruel and ignorant. I don't know everything about the Mormon religion, but I'd like you to explain to me how whatever YOU believe is more logical than what they believe. In your own words, Mr. High and Mighty.

In reply to this comment by Don_Juan:
Obviously those of the Mormon superstition have not been enlightened about the great, holy, and sacred Flying Spaghetti Monster. Be saved from DEATH! Be saved from being EVIL! Be a GOOD person and live FOREVER in Spaghetti HEAVEN!
Praise Flying Spaghetti Monster!! There is but ONE Flying monster - Flying Spaghetti Monster!!!!!!! YES!~ Become a Pastafarian BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE!!!

Even though I was quite obviously annoyed with you, I forgot it because your reply cracked me up! Plus I don't want to explain why what I believe is more logical than what the Pastafarians believe. In fact, I probably couldn't. Truth can get preposterously subjective.

In reply to this comment by Don_Juan:
Why must you make belittling and insulting comments about we - the Pastafarians and... Flying Spaghetti Monster...? Have you seriously researched our... Holy Flying One...? I challenge you to explain to me how whatever you, Pinky, believe is more logical than what WE...Pastafarians..., believe. In your words, Ms. Beautiful Woman.

In reply to this comment by thepinky:
Please don't make belittling and insulting comments about people's faith. It's cruel and ignorant. I don't know everything about the Mormon religion, but I'd like you to explain to me how whatever YOU believe is more logical than what they believe. In your own words, Mr. High and Mighty.

In reply to this comment by Don_Juan:
Obviously those of the Mormon superstition have not been enlightened about the great, holy, and sacred Flying Spaghetti Monster. Be saved from DEATH! Be saved from being EVIL! Be a GOOD person and live FOREVER in Spaghetti HEAVEN!
Praise Flying Spaghetti Monster!! There is but ONE Flying monster - Flying Spaghetti Monster!!!!!!! YES!~ Become a Pastafarian BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE!!!

Thanks for your Dad's comment. It's a very good one, especially coming from a man with his experience. I love that he appreciates that female stereotypes still exist today. Tell him I said thanks, will ya?

Please don't make belittling and insulting comments about people's faith. It's cruel and ignorant. I don't know everything about the Mormon religion, but I'd like you to explain to me how whatever YOU believe is more logical than what they believe. In your own words, Mr. High and Mighty.

In reply to this comment by Don_Juan:
Obviously those of the Mormon superstition have not been enlightened about the great, holy, and sacred Flying Spaghetti Monster. Be saved from DEATH! Be saved from being EVIL! Be a GOOD person and live FOREVER in Spaghetti HEAVEN!
Praise Flying Spaghetti Monster!! There is but ONE Flying monster - Flying Spaghetti Monster!!!!!!! YES!~ Become a Pastafarian BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE!!!

I looked up some info on "September Dawn" for you:

The film has received extraordinarily unfavorable reviews, and holds a 13% overall rating and a 0% Cream of the Crop rating at the aggregate site Rotten Tomatoes as of February 6, 2008. It received a rare "zero stars" review from film critic Roger Ebert, and the New York Post gave the movie an unusual 0/4.

The film has been described by various critics (most or all of whom are not LDS) as "the year's first honest-to-goodness exploitation flick," as "carrying an anti-Mormon agenda," as "some sort of attack piece on the Mormon religion," as "little more than wild-eyed anti-Mormon propaganda," as "a stridently anti-Mormon and cliché-heavy melodrama," as "unbelievably ugly and an insult to Mormons," as a "Swift Boating of Mormonism that advocates the religious intolerance it’s supposedly condemning," as "clearly anti-Mormon," as an "anti-Mormon broadside" that is "certain to fan the flames of hatred toward America's largest homegrown religion and continue the persecution that terrified the original Mormons."

The movie has "the chilling certitude of the self-righteous" that goes beyond "mockery" and is "practically a call to jihad [against Mormons]." It "equates the institution of the Mormon church with Islamic extremism at every opportunity," it is "propaganda pure and simple," is "filmmaking at its worst...full of propaganda," and it "goes way beyond history into the realm of speculation, rumor, myth and gossip." Critics further state that the movie "feel[s] like blatant propaganda," and that there is an "unmistakable air of evil about this enterprise, and not just an atrocity the Mormon church caused to happen 150 years ago" and its negative portrayal of Mormons is "unsubtle (in the manner most closely associated with Dr. Goebbels)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_Dawn

Ummmm...soooo...I wouldn't exactly base my opinions about Mormons on that movie.

Furthermore, Mormons do not pay their clergy and so are FAR FAR FAR less likely to be corrupt than other religions. I don't really see how corruption plays a role at all.

Every Mormon I have ever come into contact with has been extremely kind, happy, and helpful. I think that the media and other ignorant people choose to focus on the most unusual elements of the religion, take them out of context, and call them crazy. It is incredibly bigoted, intolerant, ignorant, and unkind. I think it is EXTREMELY unfair to compare the LDS church with Scientology. Ridiculous, in fact. For goodness' sake, they're good people. They're just misunderstood.

In reply to this comment by marinara:
pinky, you're trying to be fair to the mormons.
I would rather not be fair.
but then i just watched September Dawn.

I would rather ask.... is Mormons more or less of a con game, than say, Scientology? I actually liked L. Ron Hubbard, can't say the same for Joe Smith.

Mormonism = the church of the latter day saints and the elders and the corrupt and etc.

Thanks! I'll definitely be more active from now on.

In reply to this comment by E_Nygma:
'grats on your first sift! strangely applicable given the ratio of members here on the sift, but seems like you've been lurking for a while. nice to have you outta the woodwork.

Thanks for the vote. I really think that this video is a treasure. I agree that there are many positive points to be pulled from it. The great thing about that video is that many of the things they say are true. The problem is that they are coming at this issue from the wrong angle, reflecting their own ignorance about women, I think. They make mistakes like commenting that women are not "naturally" familiar with mechanical terminology. As if men are "naturally" familiar. They also shamelessly stereotyped women by saying that they're "individualistic by nature," that they "don't mind routine, repetitive work," that they "give you a crazy argument" or "switch the issue" when criticized. They certainly didn't have PC down in the '40s, but I really believe that their intentions were good. The poor guys probably needed a lot of help getting used to the changes just as the women did.

In reply to this comment by doogle:
Excellent find, thepinky.
I certainly hope this gets sifted.

Although some may find this to be a comedic reflection of our paradigmatic shift of thinking, this flux of change on the workforce from when women were entering the workforce changed the dynamic considerably, and considerably for the better, I think. More discretionary discussion about rules, fairer workplaces, active dialogue with superiors. I think there are a lot of positive points to be lifted from this video.