“ It’s your insistence that Jewish people, and the existence of Israel, have always fundamentally been invaders that I was objecting to as it is so intensely at odds with factual history.”
No…it is at odds with your position and is not what I said.
It is factual history that fighting age European Jews came armed and forcibly displaced the natives after being offered sanctuary for their most needy. It is not factual that I claimed it was ever thus. That is clearly not what I said, I said for 10+- years they were getting along as refugees, then started coming in HUGE numbers illegally and taking over.

Those are facts.

I also mentioned a native Jewish population that were not refugees or invaders. Some of them supported the invading Zionists, some didn’t. I’ve never heard of one who opposed them.

“ You gave a brief nod on not being a scholar of Palestinian history, but then proceed to just count all Jewish refugees as good as Zionist aggressors from day 1(or close enough), and the local Arab population as nothing but pure, kind caring victims of these invaders.”

Not even close to true, I said many stood behind the Zionists when they started coming en masse, and didn’t say but seemingly few to none of the native Jews opposed them. I also was clear that at the beginning the refugees acted like refugees, not invaders….I mistakenly gave them more time being grateful than you say they were, according to you Palestinians position is they began the invasion in the 20’s….and theirs is the opinion I care about. I never claimed ALL Arabs were welcoming, but the “nation” as a whole (despite being not self ruling at the time) welcomed a huge number of refugees considering their own population. Way more than elsewhere.

Edit: Britain, who facilitated this invasion, only took in 80000 European Jews in the decade before and during the war, and they were only given transit visas to stay temporarily until they found other accommodations. All of England took in fewer Jewish refugees in all pre war history than Palestine did….England took in 80000, most on temporary visas, Palestine took in 60000 permanently in 1935 alone, and 130000 in 33-36.
Pre-immigration Palestine had about 700000 people. In 1944 European Jews ignored the 1500 visa limit per year and came by the hundred of thousands per year after already completely overwhelming the native population.
Palestine was forcibly invaded by a foreign population exponentially bigger than the native population while Britain kept them too weak to oppose it physically.
That’s an invasion…not on day 1. 🤦‍♂️

“ without being able to writeoff Israel as invaders from day 1, nuance enters the calculus and suddenly the conflict is flooded with shades of grey ”

Again, I said day 3, not day 1, and went on to say that meant 10 years later. Get off your high horse and READ buddy.

I guess I’ll stop here. If you aren’t going to read what I wrote and insist on arguing red herrings you made up yourself, you can do that alone.

Nothing you’ve said changes or excuses the fact that masses of armed violent invaders came to take the land from the natives by force and were successful. The exact date this happened is not only y highly subjective, it’s completely besides the point.
Nothing you’ve said changes or excuses the inhuman treatment they’ve subjected the innocent native civilian population to for 70 years…but you’ve tried.
Nothing you’ve said changes or excuses the intentional targeting of trapped civilians by the military….serious war crimes Israel commits daily.
Nothing you’ve said even hints that you consider Palestinians worthy of consideration themselves, possibly not even human status, definitely not peaceful existence.

Bye

“ my solution would be every able bodied Jewish man and woman join the French (or Polish, Russian, British) army and fucking fight…”

I agree that’s the noble thing to do, but I can’t condemn the ones that choose to seek safety in numbers with Jewish Palestinians as exclusively invasion minded aggressors. My 6 million tag was maybe a bit sharp, but you also know that the Nazi’s took Paris and as much as it sucked to be French or European under Nazi occupation, you also know adding Jewish to that carried a lot of extra consequence and danger to your family.

My POV is agnostic of everything save Isreali people today having a right exist as a nation. Which at this point from my POV leaves 1947 as somewhat academic.

It’s your insistence that Jewish people, and the existence of Israel, have always fundamentally been invaders that I was objecting to as it is so intensely at odds with factual history.

You gave a brief nod on not being a scholar of Palestinian history, but then proceed to just count all Jewish refugees as good as Zionist aggressors from day 1(or close enough), and the local Arab population as nothing but pure, kind caring victims of these invaders.

I will state again, that is ahistorical propaganda and NOT what actually happened. And for my POV, its enough generations back as to be Academic, but for your POV it is fundamental because without being able to writeoff Israel as invaders from day 1, nuance enters the calculus and suddenly the conflict is flooded with shades of grey because lots of parties all contribute to the bloodshed, and many with reasonable motivations from both sides yet too.

Please find me any reputable sources to refute the reality of 1920-1940s Palestine:
-Mass Jewish immigration fleeing European oppression raised tensions between Jewish and Arab Palestinians.(as one must expect)
-Arab palestinians were already chaffing and resisting British colonial rule(as one must expect)
-These tensions led conflict, initially more ‘civil’ with the Arab majority trying to refuse all business, sales and trade with all Jews.
-Escalation followed throughout that time, but in drips and drops and NOT a ‘surprise the Zionist army has arrived’! style of aggression

The violent escalation was a fight here, a beating there. Little individual fights, escalating into deaths. Retaliations slowly grew, with each side exchanging small escalations.

-the culmination of this was eventually all out civil war, and the Jewish side immediately accepting a UN mandated 2 state solution

-this culmination coinciding with the end of WW2 and revelations of the true extent of the holocaust can’t be ignored, it certainly shaped the Jewish mindset in the conflict.

-Their mindset was pretty clearly not inaccurate either, as the immediate response of all neighbouring Arab nations was a declaration of war on the new ‘state’, with bold claims of how quickly the Jews would be swept into the sea. The confidence was so high, a call was sent it for ALL Arab palestinians to abandon and flee the entire region of Palestine to better enable the complete cleansing of the land.

The above is all pretty much inarguably factual, and I’d bargain you could get an Arabic and Israeli scholar together to more or less agree on those facts which is saying alot.

——
Propaganda from both sides would like to declare that the Arabs harboured deep Nazi sympathies, and thus Israel was pure and true in all it did. Or from the other side, more or less your narrative of Zionist bad guys launching invasion from day 1(ish).

Both though are just sprinklings of half truths, with anti-British resentment naturally breeding some leanings towards the axis, and even genuine Nazi cleanse the Jews believers. And absolutely Zionists featured prominently within the Jewish population. Neither of those partial truths though make the propaganda of either side true, but instead just an incomplete and intentionally biased picture.


Again, please find me sources demonstrating I’m terribly wrong on all that, but the only ones I can find are clearly biased and the accurate accounts paint the picture above, the propaganda very, very clearly copies the real story more or less with just deletions of inconvenient bits

I count it as a hyper generous humanitarian gift given by Palestinians on day 1 that by day 3 (year 10+-) had become an invasion of hostile violent foreigners.

Because I don’t have a perfect solution for a problem no one could solve at the time does not in any way shape or form excuse the hostile invasion or fascist racist genocidal regimes since…
…but my solution would be every able bodied Jewish man and woman join the French (or Polish, Russian, British) army and fucking fight, not run off and invade elsewhere. If they had the fighters to take Israel, they had the fighters to turn the war years earlier, but went for invasion and occupation instead.

So, you DO think the people of Haiti have the right to come to your doorstep and toss you in the street. I disagree. I reiterate, not being safe at home is no excuse to go elsewhere and make it’s inhabitants unsafe, especially if those inhabitants had nothing to do with you being unsafe, more so if they actually stuck their neck out to make some of your family safe.

I’ll try to unscramble that…”what would I have the existing Jewish Palestinian population and new refugees do with themselves once in Palestine?”…the native Jews, nothing. They’re citizens. The refugees, refugee camps of a certain size and no over crowding. Once they’re full, go elsewhere. There were other places to go, although limited. The British had an obligation to support the Palestinians and prepare them to run the country, an obligation they completely shirked and instead facilitated the invasion of hostile foreigners while keeping the Palestinians defenseless.

Fuck you 6 million. They weren’t waiting for legal avenues for immigration. Those people for the most part had no option to be refugees or decide a thing, the Germans and Polish essentially woke up one day unable to travel. The people we are talking about had over a decade, and included Germans.

No, my POV relies on the theory that you having a bad time doesn’t give you a license to murder me and steal my stuff and subjugate my descendants horrifically.
Historically many groups have had tough scary times, many ending in actual genocide. Few took that as an opportunity to do the same to another group that was trying to help them out of the tough spot. Zionists did….and with Americans help. I’ll never stop pointing it out.
The Palestinians in Gaza are suffering a genocide today. Do they have a right to go invade some weaker nation for their safety? No. That’s not reasonable or acceptable.

I think your POV relies on the theory that, because Jews were being increasingly persecuted in Europe that gives them the right to take a friendly nation by force and subjugate and persecute its people forever…

Yes. What’s your point? You seem to agree with me, except you go back to the 20’s instead of early 30’s. I’m not a Palestine scholar, sorry if I get details or dates slightly wrong, sources vary on many points. It doesn’t change my point, that under British rule European Jews were allowed to immigrate in huge numbers despite opposition from the native population that was being overwhelmed by increasing unwanted forced immigration. At first it was accepted even encouraged by the empathetic natives, but quickly became an overwhelming unwanted invasion of people intent on taking over, not some moderate number of refugees looking for temporary refuge.

Who the fuck cares what the reason they wanted to invade was? Palestinians weren’t responsible for their plight, but still stood ready to help until invaded and subjugated harshly by the invaders.
Should Venezuelans be allowed to take over Pennsylvania because they want out of Venezuela for good reason? Or Chinese? Or any African? Or Central American? Certainly Haitians have it bad enough to make it ok to take a state for themselves! Yes, Europe was dangerous…for anyone. That’s not an excuse to invade, murder another person and steal their land and subjugate their descendants for decades, but that’s what they did…and what you’re attempting to excuse.

Well, that explains it then. You think because the Jews had it worse once, it excuses being the Nazis today. I do not, I believe it gives them more reason to never be anything like the Nazis, not emulate them. The Palestinian plight is worse than many Jews in Europe besides Poland or Germany. They’re already in the ghetto, not free to travel and maybe get out. They’re already oppressed, subjugated, starved, dehydrated, often without power or communications, and 100% under the thumb and control of their oppressors. Sounds pretty shitty to me. Your family murdered at a whim with no repercussions sounds pretty bad. Your ancestral home taken by force and family shot for existing sounds fairly bad. I’m not sure how you think it’s OK because someone else maybe had it worse once.

When they “arrived in Palestine”, it was as an illegal unwanted invasion intent on taking over and expelling or eradicating the native population. They deserved violence 100%. The population was doing more than their share accepting refugees, then for their humanity was invaded and dehumanized in their own country. No excuse can make that acceptable unless it had happened in Germany post war.

Yes, Jews were the bad guys, invading a land they had and have no right to. You got it! They didn’t even have a right to refugee status there, it was a gift, they absolutely had no right to take control and possession by force, nor to become the inhuman monsters they were fleeing in Northern Europe.

Absolutely not. What even was his plan, I ask you. It wasn’t securing the borders.

I support the plan to FUND border parol and immigration courts to not only secure the border but repair the immigration process that does not function today. With a functioning immigration process, most would use it, making stopping illegal entry much easier.

I support refugee camps in the East Texas desert, not open release before processing.

I absolutely do not support actual open borders, nor allowing other countries to just send plane and train and boatloads of unvetted people in in numbers that would make natives the minority in quick fashion, nor do I support returning Texas (including Oklahoma, Kansas, Colorado, Wyoming, and New Mexico) to the Mexicans even though they are fleeing near the same level of fear, oppression and death from narco gangs and have some hereditary claims (which European Jews did not, they were mostly not Semitic genetically). I disagree the circumstances were much more desperate in the 30’s outside of Germany, and I disagree that the choices are Trumpism or no-border free-for-alls.

Agreed, the details are many, but trying to see what will happen in the future is simple, it’s the same thing that’s been happening in the past. Israel will continue to illegally expand into territory they agreed belongs to Palestinians, will continue to militarily support and defend the murderous settlers that murder Palestinian families and steal their land constantly with no repercussion at all, and will use any resistance to that violent expansion as an excuse to abuse and further control and murder the remaining citizens while blaming them for their plight.
That’s exactly what’s happening today.
The areas hit by Hamas were all Palestinian land stolen by settlers with full military support, not in Israel but in what was recently Palestine. The expansionist invasion continues, it’s never stopped, and some people don’t understand why the remaining civilians imprisoned in the ghetto by Israel, often with no food, water, or medicine, might revolt and throw stones, but you totally understand why the invaders should get to flatten entire populated cities if one of theirs gets hurt.

The population of Israel is 15 times Gaza, but the casualties of this 70 year conflict are statistically all Palestinians. Just this latest conflict has seen under 1400 Israeli casualties and over 15000 Palestinian civilians…nearly 5000 YOUNG children. THE NORM IS MUCH WORSE, normally this retaliation would come after fireworks hurt 4 settlers almost killing one and damaging their stolen house.

There’s something Americans can do. Vote for a president that will cut all military aid to countries that commit war crimes regularly. Simple, but not easy.

Israeli military is only so strong because we support them. Without American weapons and support, Israel would be a long distant memory of a short lived immigrant invasion.

Yes, Hamas has rhetorically been as genocidal as Israel (also totally genocidal)…but they have zero ability to follow through, while Israel is actively committing genocide today with the most advanced weaponry on the planet we supply, and for the last 70 years. If Israel directly eliminated Palestine as they have stated they will, they would start another war with every neighbor, this time likely without support. Otherwise they would have followed through 40+ years ago. This newest “occupation” may be the last. There will be no rebuilding under occupation, and there are few habitable structures left in Gaza. It’s a small town of 750000 people flattened, under total embargo, and under a shoot on sight order from their oppressors.

Yes, Israel is fighting its neighbors….100% because of their treatment of Palestinians and blatant intent to ignore any borders in their expansion. Combined with Iran their neighbors aren’t 1/2 the military power Israel is thanks 100% to America supplying advanced weapons and defense platforms for decades at our expense.

Invading occupying military forces have no right to complain they are threatened…that’s like saying we should hand squatters AR-15s and grenades because they keep being threatened by the home owners and the neighborhood, and the squatters have every right to shoot neighbors in their own yards if they seem threatening, but the neighbors and home owners have no rights whatsoever, not even the right to leave home because that threatens the squatters. Not even the right of self defense when the squatters invite their family over to take the neighbor’s homes.
I prefer shooting squatters and dumping the bodies in the sewer where they belong. Zionists are all squatters….well armed squatters.

The squatters do not have the right to murder the neighbors who signed the petition to remove the violent squatters. The squatters are always the wrong party no matter what. Period. End on line.


Because Israel intends to act unilaterally and violently to ensure their defense and continued expansion, always at the expense of their neighbors, they should be abandoned by the rest of the world. Murderous expansionist invading occupying racist armies get zero sympathy, and there’s no such thing as an Israeli civilian, they do not exist, only those yet to be military, andtive military, and those in reserve…conversely there’s no such thing as a Palestinian soldier in Gaza…does not exist.

Militaries that attack civilian populations are war criminals…every time. Yes, that includes America in Afghanistan, but bears noting the Afghans protected Alkaida (sp?), the Palestinian government and most civilians do not support Hamas.
I do not want to be supporting foreign war crimes with my tax dollars.

Tragically it's all more complicated than anyone can really state, right? I mean, if you had a 30 book(10k pages a book) series solely on the conditions in the region of Palestine between 1930 and today you'd still have so much material to cut, you could limit all 30 books to only 1 sides POV.

The closest I see to shortcutting things, is trying view what is likely to happen in the future, and from that maybe what one might try and do.

The trouble being there's so little one can do. The reality is that Israeli military strength compared to Palestine is completely and entirely one sided, and thus Israel can and will do whatever it wishes to militarily. It's all their choice, period. In fairness to Israel, you have to note that Hamas as stated in their own charter, given that same power would've already cleansed the entirety of Israel and have created their own single state 'final' solution.

It's also not actually about Palestine vs. Israel, which should be obvious given the fact of Israel's military dominance. Israel IS really facing existentially threats of it's own, just not directly from Palestine, and instead from ALL of it's neighbours. That state of constantly requiring Israel to be capable of winning an existential war since it's inception has kept things in a perpetual state of near-war, and more often proxy-war with the Palestiniances as the pawns of alternately Iran, Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and others depending which time and region we choose to look at.

Predictively, that gives us that Isreal can not, under any circumstances, accept conditions to exist where any party(in particular Iran as the main backer) views the "Al Aqsa Flood operation" as a success. That means Israel will do whatever they deem necessary to ensure that happens and Iran in particular views that operation as a mistake. Nothing the UN or any of the rest of us say or do can change that.

A reasoned and relatively factual position. Congratulations, but….
In my and many expert’s opinions the deadly indiscriminate pressure is exactly what pushes desperate and grieving innocent civilian Palestinians into Hamas’s arms. You would create two terrorists for every one caught with the inhumane treatment of the civilian population…and commit a serious war crime in the process.

Israel should abandon all expansionist settlements from the last 30 years and free the Palestinian citizens from the oppressive genocidal apartheid they’ve forced on the population for decades. That would end the conflict tomorrow, instead Israel has telegraphed its intent to take over Gaza militarily and occupy it again…and America stands by their side, but not all Americans.

If America had spent 10% of what we spend supplying Israel with weapons they use on civilians instead on building infrastructure, schools, hospitals, roads in Gaza, the Palestinians would not rightly see us as racist enemies, and might have the resources and inclination to oust Hamas. But we don’t.

Palestine gets no aid. You can’t withhold something that never existed. The reason Hamas gets any support is they do supply Gaza with food and medicine while Israel and America just embargo entire populations because a terrorist group lives in the country. Think if the world did the same, bombing cities flat and starving America because the Boogaloo Boys live in America.

Hamas is not Palestine, they’re the warlord gang that took over from the intentionally weakened Palestinian parliament and the only group supporting Palestinian civilians (while also using them as shields and cannon fodder).

Hamas fucked around, but Israel is making innocent Palestinian civilians “find out”. That’s a serious war crime that should put every Israeli soldier in prison, and get Netanyahu executed.

Hamas took over the Gaza Strip after a brief civil war back in 2006 / 2007 . Before that Fatah was a major Palestinian political party that began in 1965 as the Palestinian National Liberation Movement. Fatah wanted to negotiate back to the 67 boundaries.

Hamas – Does not recognize Israel, but accepts a Palestinian state on 1967 borders
Fatah – Recognizes Israel, wants to build a state on 1967 borders






Israel should stop advancing and leave it to the Palestine to find and and capture Hamas.
To pressure this no aid to Palestine. Their desperation will weed out Hamas.

Woo-hoo!!!
The NY AG and Manhattan DA are considering enterprise corruption and racketeering criminal charges against Trump, his children and possibly Rudy Giuliani.
Thanks to Cannon delaying his treason/stolen classified documents trial indefinitely, there’s plenty of time for that trial next year.
😂 She thought she was helping! 😂

Meanwhile Trump doesn’t know where he is, what year it is, who he ran against, who has been president, who foreign leaders are, or that we’ve already had a Second World War. I think he’s setting up a dementia defense.

Entirely one sided misleading propaganda.

It completely ignores and glosses over the millions of armed Jewish invaders that took over what’s now the ever expanding Israel, outnumbering the less well armed and unsupported Palestinians, quickly creating an apartheid state with inhuman treatment of the now minority native population displaced by European Jews that had no intention of sharing the land they had stolen from the native inhabitants with England’s and America’s blessing, nor of keeping to the borders they agreed to.

So much history was intentionally deleted or completely misrepresented here it’s more misinformation than informative.
The Palestinian people were subjugated by the Turks, then the British, and now by the genocidal Zionists.

The argument here is like if you imagine America has essentially no military at all having just won independence from Britain in 1948, and the French demanded 1/2 of Louisiana as it was originally a French nation and they suffered greatly in the war, including of course New Orleans, and Canada offered them 25% which they agree to, America said “hell no, why should we hand over our land to foreign invaders?”, and now America is blamed for France’s brutal invasion and unending dehumanization of and inhuman war crimes against and brutal subjugation and imprisonment of the people of the entire Louisiana territory that France now claims, with sights on more expansion.

*lies

And never get involved in a land war in Asia….

, MAGA Shaman and the other treasonous idiots, and the morons you post talking about them are your boys, you gullible fool. (Why do you always capitalize the word tool…because it’s your identity?).
😂 You don’t think I’m actually wasting my time watching your idiotic propaganda trolls troll for their home studios, do you? You don’t think I’m gullible enough to believe their conveniently edited sound clips represent reality, do you?
I don’t trust a word a MAGgot says, and it’s never been a mistake to not trust you.
Silly boy. 😂

As far as damage to the nation, Jan 6 was worse. 9/11 brought us together, unfortunately our Republican leader took advantage of that and lied and took us to war with the country that tried to kill his daddy, not the Saudis that attacked our country. The exact same Saudis that Trump now cozies up to and sells classified top secrets to for billions in bribes to his son in law/daughter and rents his properties to at 10 times market value, often renting entire floors for months with no occupants, but no, it’s not a bribe, nooooo. Attacking the wrong people brought us apart again.

Remember, republicans voted to forget 9/11 and its victims, defunding the funds that support and care for them. Jon Stewart shamed them out of their defund 9/11 funds plans. They sure think Jan 6 is more important.

Obama taking out the Saudi leader of the Saudi terrorist organization brought us back together temporarily.

The Jan 6 insurrection and failed coup attempt by a terroristic political party nearly ended America, and has divided the country to near civil war since. Internal terrorist enemies are far more dangerous than foreign powers.

More people died in 9/11. The MAGA response to Covid proved American deaths don’t bother you one whit, completely ignoring the 500000-750000 deaths caused directly by Trump’s lack of policy or support for sane public health measures (turns out he went anti mask after trying one once but it smeared his clown makeup badly and he refused to ever wear one again!).
More damage was done to the union on Jan 6. Well over $500000000 in direct costs for Jan 6 too….before investigations, prosecutions, and incarceration, so make that $750000000 and the continuing possibility of dissolving the Union before it’s done.

Note- I addressed every nonsensical accusation you made. You failed to address any I made against you and instead just whined and rage posted unrelated nonsense. This is typical.

Oh no! WORDS! These children are too fucking weak to possibly stand up to the mind-twisting power of WORDS! PUT THEM ALL IN A PADDED ROOM UNTIL THEY CAN GO TO WAR! NERF THE WORLD!

Meanwhile, active shooter drills. Meanwhile, parents buying basic classroom supplies so the teachers don't have to cover them with their meagre salaries. Meanwhile, schools share a single nurse between them, while having no funding for mental health specialists.

Liberals tend to focus on issues that actually impact kids. Conservatives seem obsessed with policing morality, while ignoring actual harms being done. I don't much care if my kid reads a book that has some sex in it. I do care a LOT if their classmates are being passed through the system without actual basic skills competency, because the school lacks the budget for remedial classes and tutors.

I also think it doesn’t look real. I think it’s a composite video…1) a building in a storm 2) a tornado 3) lightning (that actually looks like it’s stolen from war of the worlds at slow speed). That’s why it’s “coastal town” not somewhere you could look up.
Groovy, but I assume fake.

Congratulations! Your video, Star Wars 1923, has reached the #1 spot in the current Top 15 New Videos listing. This is a very difficult thing to accomplish but you managed to pull it off. For your contribution you have been awarded 2 Power Points.

This achievement has earned you your "Golden One" Level 180 Badge!