That is a superb analogy. Well done.

In reply to this comment by packo:
it provides a foundation, a base from which to launch... its two swimmers racing, one with something to push off of, and the other starting with nothing to push off of... sure the outcome isn't decided completely... but you can make a REALLY accurate guess as to who has the better chance to win... no one is throwing them a dragline while they are swimming... its just the start of the race

...I ask you, why is your mistaken assumption so apparent? I mean ALL those taking more than they give. That certainly includes the rich and corporations, often to a greater extent than the poor (who often NEED the help). In Greece, it does seem to be the populace that's MOST guilty, but I'm certain they are not alone at the government tit.
Gottcha right back. Your assumption was 100% wrong. Apologize to umption now, please.

EDIT: Before you make your next mistaken assumption, I do think deregulation has been a mistake almost every time I've seen it in practice, and I do see it as a major cause of the American 'recession'.
>> ^NetRunner:
Oh, I guess I need to roll my eyes here. Apparently by "the preponderance of people taking more and more from the government and giving less back" you didn't mean corporations and rich people, you meant poor people, and mothers taking maternity leave.
I gotcha. No, I still stand by what I'm saying.
>> ^newtboy:
So then you retract your statement..." the problem that's destroyed the global economy is unregulated financial BS from the free market, not a preponderance of people taking maternity leave"? You seem to have just agreed that it is too many people taking maternaty leave (among other programs) crashing Europe.
>> ^NetRunner:
@newtboy agreed, that's been a problem too.

>> ^newtboy:
Actually, what is taking down the global market right now seems to be the preponderance of people taking more and more from the government tit and giving less and less back. The economies of Europe are crashing because they spent themselves deep into the poor house, then the global market went lower (for many reasons, deregulation included), putting them exponentially deeper in their holes and compounding the problem for all. There is little to no question that's exactly what happened in Greece, and most likely is what's happening to Italy right now, causing the few 'responsible' (by comparison) countries in the union to 'bail them out'.

Oh, I guess I need to roll my eyes here. Apparently by "the preponderance of people taking more and more from the government and giving less back" you didn't mean corporations and rich people, you meant poor people, and mothers taking maternity leave.

I gotcha. No, I still stand by what I'm saying.

>> ^newtboy:

So then you retract your statement..." the problem that's destroyed the global economy is unregulated financial BS from the free market, not a preponderance of people taking maternity leave"? You seem to have just agreed that it is too many people taking maternaty leave (among other programs) crashing Europe.
>> ^NetRunner:
@newtboy agreed, that's been a problem too.

>> ^newtboy:
Actually, what is taking down the global market right now seems to be the preponderance of people taking more and more from the government tit and giving less and less back. The economies of Europe are crashing because they spent themselves deep into the poor house, then the global market went lower (for many reasons, deregulation included), putting them exponentially deeper in their holes and compounding the problem for all. There is little to no question that's exactly what happened in Greece, and most likely is what's happening to Italy right now, causing the few 'responsible' (by comparison) countries in the union to 'bail them out'.

Your statement makes the wrong assumption that, without governmental/socialtal support, no one will have children, or at least that no one can afford them without a handout. Where's the responsibility for your actions and the consequences of them in your world?
If you can't support one, don't have one, just like a dog, a ferrarri, or plastic surgery. It's that simple, and it's that easy with forthought. There's no shortage of people, don't fret. If you NEED to be a parent, try adoption or fostering. We can lose 3 billion people(+-) and still have a planetary surplus. Stop the 'we need more children' BS, it's a lie, there are plenty to be had already.
>> ^Yogi:
It comes down to this...does the society believe that having a child is something that should be supported or not? I think it should be...kinda need people to keep a society going, and I'd like them to get a good start on education and medicine and so forth.

So then you retract your statement..." the problem that's destroyed the global economy is unregulated financial BS from the free market, not a preponderance of people taking maternity leave"? You seem to have just agreed that it is too many people taking maternity leave (among other programs) crashing Europe.

>> ^NetRunner:
@newtboy agreed, that's been a problem too.


>> ^newtboy:
Actually, what is taking down the global market right now seems to be the preponderance of people taking more and more from the government tit and giving less and less back. The economies of Europe are crashing because they spent themselves deep into the poor house, then the global market went lower (for many reasons, deregulation included), putting them exponentially deeper in their holes and compounding the problem for all. There is little to no question that's exactly what happened in Greece, and most likely is what's happening to Italy right now, causing the few 'responsible' (by comparison) countries in the union to 'bail them out'.
>> ^NetRunner:
>> ^gorillaman:
Society has a limited capacity to provide for and eductate its youth. Once that threshold is crossed every excess birth makes every other child poorer and dumber. Those of you who support policies that allow for explosive population growth are actively harming children.
The short-sighted, entitled attitude of the modern parent will drag us into poverty and squalor. It's necessary for compassion to be grounded in reason.

You seem to be ignoring the frequent reminders from other people that paid maternity leave is pretty much everywhere in the developed world except here, and yet the problem that's destroyed the global economy is unregulated financial BS from the free market, not a preponderance of people taking maternity leave.
The short-sighted, entitled attitude of the social darwinists is killing us all.

Seeing as we are using the resourses of the planet at a rate of about 1.5 planets production per year, the theory that we need to maintain our replacement rate is insanity, short sighted, and uninformed. We need to reduce the global population (or somehow increase global production capacity) to budget/ballance our need with availability (possibly with some margin for error, preferably on the safe side of ballance). This concept seems to be lost to many, in all facets of life. Maybe the 'greatest generation/baby boomers' should have thought things through when they decided to have 4+ children each in order to avoid even slight population aging, labor shortage, or economic costs. It's just one more instance of the past few generations greed, ignoring the high (possibly insurmountable)cost to others for their own temporary gain.
On a side note, I do love the term 'baby boomer', it unintentionally but correctly describes the explosive situation that overpopulation creates, and correctly blames the 'bomb's creators.
>> ^ravioli:
A society should maintain a 2.1 average children per woman to maintain its replacement rate. It's why many countries have put up incentives to encourage families to go and have 2 and more children. Not doing so leads to population ageing, labor shortage, and more economic costs to society.
Right now, the fertility rate in the US is 2.05, si I can understand why the US doesn't feel pressed to help families procreate.

Actually, what is taking down the global market right now seems to be the preponderance of people taking more and more from the government tit and giving less and less back. The economies of Europe are crashing because they spent themselves deep into the poor house, then the global market went lower (for many reasons, deregulation included), putting them exponentially deeper in their holes and compounding the problem for all. There is little to no question that's exactly what happened in Greece, and most likely is what's happening to Italy right now, causing the few 'responsible' (by comparison) countries in the union to 'bail them out'.

>> ^NetRunner:
>> ^gorillaman:
Society has a limited capacity to provide for and eductate its youth. Once that threshold is crossed every excess birth makes every other child poorer and dumber. Those of you who support policies that allow for explosive population growth are actively harming children.
The short-sighted, entitled attitude of the modern parent will drag us into poverty and squalor. It's necessary for compassion to be grounded in reason.

You seem to be ignoring the frequent reminders from other people that paid maternity leave is pretty much everywhere in the developed world except here, and yet the problem that's destroyed the global economy is unregulated financial BS from the free market, not a preponderance of people taking maternity leave.
The short-sighted, entitled attitude of the social darwinists is killing us all.

I can really appreciate the first part of your comment. I think that people have babies at the drop of a hat, and I also think that helping to put a cap on overpopulation (through education, and maybe even tax reform) would help fix a ton of the problems we have, from the economy to the environment, and hunger and a million other things.

But the government guaranteeing 3 months of unpaid leave is not an incentive to have children. And it is certainly not a "racket". If money is a problem for someone who's had a baby, then they're not going to be able to take that time off anyway. Very very few people, especially the ones struggling, are not looking forward to three months without income. A "racket" brings in income. No income = no racket.

The fact of the matter is, it's cruel to expect a person who has just gone through the trauma (whether personal choice or not) of giving birth (not to mention gestating a human for ten months) to return to work immediately or lose their income permanently. The sad part is that we need to make laws like this in the first place. That time people use for recuperating and connecting with their child can be the most important part of their development. So again you arrive at "hurting children", only from this end it's all so an employer can save a few bucks on not having to screen a temp. It's totally ridiculous.

If an employer is not ready to treat their employees like human beings, then maybe they shouldn't have started up a business in the first place.

>> ^gorillaman:

Society has a limited capacity to provide for and eductate its youth. Once that threshold is crossed every excess birth makes every other child poorer and dumber. Those of you who support policies that allow for explosive population growth are actively harming children.
The short-sighted, entitled attitude of the modern parent will drag us into poverty and squalor. It's necessary for compassion to be grounded in reason.

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>> ^gorillaman:

Society has a limited capacity to provide for and eductate its youth. Once that threshold is crossed every excess birth makes every other child poorer and dumber. Those of you who support policies that allow for explosive population growth are actively harming children.
The short-sighted, entitled attitude of the modern parent will drag us into poverty and squalor. It's necessary for compassion to be grounded in reason.


You seem to be ignoring the frequent reminders from other people that paid maternity leave is pretty much everywhere in the developed world except here, and yet the problem that's destroyed the global economy is unregulated financial BS from the free market, not a preponderance of people taking maternity leave.

The short-sighted, entitled attitude of the social darwinists is killing us all.

>> ^heropsycho:

And the government requiring paid materity leave is....survey says... SOCIALIST IN NATURE!


And you're saying that's bad? Nothing wrong with a little socialism.

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Funny how that works eh?
>> ^ChaosEngine:

Wow, the staggering hypocrisy of Kelly just blows my mind. How can she advocate for paid maternity leave on one hand and rail against socialised medicine on the other? Typical of the right wing in america... hate big government until it's paying you money.