I said numbers don't mean anything, but if you want to make a big deal out of my comment, fine..God gives everyone a fair chance..anyone who goes to hell is just someone who refused to turn from their evil..it's not like anyone is "stuck" somewhere, as if God couldn't reach them..God isn't limited..so what is incomprehensible to you is possible for Him..Here is a primary example of God reaching someone who otherwise wouldn't know about HIm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvvClFSMIzA

>> ^mizila:
The true God would have the number one, I'm sorry, "#1" religion? Seriously? Even if that religion is only two-sevenths of the world's population. Saving two people out of every seven is good enough for God I guess. And then you drag the half of the world you believe are doomed for eternity because they pray to the wrong Magic Sky Person into it and use them to suggest, "Hey they'll all burn in Hell because they picked the wrong God but at least they get the idea, unlike you morons." Of course, Islam and Judaism also believe in the Abrahemic God, so there's a billion and a half people who do believe in your God, but get to go to Hell because they're doing it wrong.
But no, really, your translations of old books and imaginary friend are way better than critical thinking. Three cheers for God!
The Abrahamic God is #1 when worshipped in a (proper) Christian way!
The Abrahamic God is #1 when worshipped in a (proper) Christian way!!
The Abrahamic God is #1 when worshipped in a (proper) Christian way!!!
>> ^shinyblurry:
Not that numbers prove anything, but Christianity is the worlds biggest religion. I would think that the true God would have the #1 religion. Don't forget that 4/5's of the world disagrees with your conclusion that there isn't a God in the first place.

The true God would have the number one, I'm sorry, "#1" religion? Seriously? Even if that religion is only two-sevenths of the world's population. Saving two people out of every seven is good enough for God I guess. And then you drag the half of the world you believe are doomed for eternity because they pray to the wrong Magic Sky Person into it and use them to suggest, "Hey they'll all burn in Hell because they picked the wrong God but at least they get the idea, unlike you morons." Of course, Islam and Judaism also believe in the Abrahemic God, so there's a billion and a half people who do believe in your God, but get to go to Hell because they're doing it wrong.

But no, really, your translations of old books and imaginary friend are way better than critical thinking. Three cheers for God!

The Abrahamic God is #1 when worshipped in a (proper) Christian way!
The Abrahamic God is #1 when worshipped in a (proper) Christian way!!
The Abrahamic God is #1 when worshipped in a (proper) Christian way!!!


>> ^shinyblurry:
Not that numbers prove anything, but Christianity is the worlds biggest religion. I would think that the true God would have the #1 religion. Don't forget that 4/5's of the world disagrees with your conclusion that there isn't a God in the first place.

Did *you* just tell *me* not to be a dick? hehe. Look, it's clear that your views aren't very sophisticated, and that you know virtually nothing about theology, philosophy, and are even startling ignorant about what you personally believe..but not everyone is that ignorant and realizes that these questions are a little bit deeper than the puddle you're playing in. mmkay?

>> ^KnivesOut:
Shiny, don't be a dick. Spell people's user-names correctly. It doesn't help your position in any way, and makes you look like more of a petulant child.
On topic, you're just making shit up. There's no point arguing with you the specific capabilities of your imaginary friend. Is he everything, or just what he wants to be? Is he purple? Is he an old man with a great bushy beard?
Seriously, don't care.
>> ^shinyblurry:
That's just depressingly pedantic, rryjkyjdhu..
Omniscience is the capacity to know everything. Deliberately limiting Himself does not reduce that capacity. God is not the combination of every possible state of being. God is only good and not evil, for instance. God is not a combination of the two, he is just wholly good. Perfection is the overriding attribute here. Because it is more perfect to be wholly good instead of good and evil, He is just wholly good. Just as it is more perfect for God to limit Himself to give us free will than to not limit Himself and have puppets.

Shiny, don't be a dick. Spell people's user-names correctly. It doesn't help your position in any way, and makes you look like more of a petulant child.

On topic, you're just making shit up. There's no point arguing with you the specific capabilities of your imaginary friend. Is he everything, or just what he wants to be? Is he purple? Is he an old man with a great bushy beard?

Seriously, don't care.
>> ^shinyblurry:

That's just depressingly pedantic, rryjkyjdhu..
Omniscience is the capacity to know everything. Deliberately limiting Himself does not reduce that capacity. God is not the combination of every possible state of being. God is only good and not evil, for instance. God is not a combination of the two, he is just wholly good. Perfection is the overriding attribute here. Because it is more perfect to be wholly good instead of good and evil, He is just wholly good. Just as it is more perfect for God to limit Himself to give us free will than to not limit Himself and have puppets.

Winning has nothing to do with being right. Appealing to the masses is another logical fallacy. Every individual has their own subjective view of the rightness or wrongness of a situation.

The point that you avoided was that even those that live under the supposed objective rightness of the lord are themselves confined within a subjective reality of their own making. No one can escape the confines of their own mind to know the true will of whatever imaginary friend they subscribe to.

Try following your own conclusions. If morality is subjective, then if everyone agrees that something is right or wrong, it is. Therefore, if the nazis had won and everyone agreed that the holocaust was right, it would be. The only way it would be wrong even if everyone agreed it wasnt is if it were objectively wrong.

All they can do is interpret what they think their lord would want them to do, from one moment to the next. What you call "following the will of god" is actually just guessing at what you think he wants you to think/do/say.

Millions have "followed the will of god" to do horrible things in his name. THAT was my point. Your fantasies about objective morality are irrelevant.

Again, that man does evil says nothing about the existence of an absolute standard of morality. It was *because* man does evil that a law was given in the first place. There is no gray area in an absolute standard. Millions of hypocrites exist, that's true..it doesn't prove anything except that a law is neccesary.


>> ^KnivesOut:
Winning has nothing to do with being right. Appealing to the masses is another logical fallacy. Every individual has their own subjective view of the rightness or wrongness of a situation.
The point that you avoided was that even those that live under the supposed objective rightness of the lord are themselves confined within a subjective reality of their own making. No one can escape the confines of their own mind to know the true will of whatever imaginary friend they subscribe to.
All they can do is interpret what they think their lord would want them to do, from one moment to the next. What you call "following the will of god" is actually just guessing at what you think he wants you to think/do/say.
Millions have "followed the will of god" to do horrible things in his name. THAT was my point. Your fantasies about objective morality are irrelevant.
>> ^shinyblurry:
You just don't understand the nature of good and evil according to scripture. Man, when he sinned, decided to go with his own interpertation of what good and evil is instead of trusting God. That is the subjective part. This led to his fallen nature. Because of this, Man is naturally inclined to do evil. God however knows absolutely what is good and what is evil. His law is there to provide the standard of conduct that man in his fallen state is naturally disinclined to do. This was the reason that Jesus came to earth to die for our sins, because every man has sinned and fallen short and earned punishment for himself.
Thank you for admitting there is not nor could there be an objective standard of behavior under atheism. So in your world, if the Nazis won, the holocaust is moral. Right?
I didn't dodge anything. What I explained was that there was no institution of slavery in the bible. I also explained that people in those times were frequently slaves voluntarily. I don't see rules governing the treatment of slaves as condoning slavery in that light.

Winning has nothing to do with being right. Appealing to the masses is another logical fallacy. Every individual has their own subjective view of the rightness or wrongness of a situation.

The point that you avoided was that even those that live under the supposed objective rightness of the lord are themselves confined within a subjective reality of their own making. No one can escape the confines of their own mind to know the true will of whatever imaginary friend they subscribe to.

All they can do is interpret what they think their lord would want them to do, from one moment to the next. What you call "following the will of god" is actually just guessing at what you think he wants you to think/do/say.

Millions have "followed the will of god" to do horrible things in his name. THAT was my point. Your fantasies about objective morality are irrelevant.
>> ^shinyblurry:

You just don't understand the nature of good and evil according to scripture. Man, when he sinned, decided to go with his own interpertation of what good and evil is instead of trusting God. That is the subjective part. This led to his fallen nature. Because of this, Man is naturally inclined to do evil. God however knows absolutely what is good and what is evil. His law is there to provide the standard of conduct that man in his fallen state is naturally disinclined to do. This was the reason that Jesus came to earth to die for our sins, because every man has sinned and fallen short and earned punishment for himself.
Thank you for admitting there is not nor could there be an objective standard of behavior under atheism. So in your world, if the Nazis won, the holocaust is moral. Right?
I didn't dodge anything. What I explained was that there was no institution of slavery in the bible. I also explained that people in those times were frequently slaves voluntarily. I don't see rules governing the treatment of slaves as condoning slavery in that light.

THIS.

FUCKING THIS. RIGHT HERE *points at it*

Why is so much time wasted debating with this superstitious cave-man that thinks his super imaginary friend invented all of everything in 6 days? I FEEL LIKE I'M TAKING CRAZY PILLS.

Seriously, there are far better ways to waste your evenings, people.>> ^Januari:

Ok... at this time we're now debating with an individual who believes a magic man in the sky created the world in six days and THIS is supported by science... Please see earlier post.

The first video I posted was this funny animation that turned out to be a dupe. The first one I posted that wasn't a dupe was The Imaginary Friends Help Group sketch

My imaginary friend can beat up YOUR imaginary friend!!

At least this imaginary friend doesn't judge you for being human.

>> ^AnimalsForCrackers:
Shiny, as a corporeal representative for God's so-called everlasting/universal love, you seem to really relish the idea of people who, y'know, don't fall in line with your incomprehensible and unjustified self-enslavement and stuff BURNING IN HELL FOREVER.
But please, defer the blame for your petty (calling it childish would be an insult to actual well-adjusted children), crass behavior right on back to your evidence-less imaginary friend so you don't have to ever engage anyone in good faith, ever; we're all sinners and you're God's special child/saved and that's that. Actually, considering that, it might be a better idea if you just fuck right off. Go drop a turd in someone else's punch-bowl.


I don't though, I do not relish that. It's the last thing I want. I don't relish the idea of anyone suffering, neither would I want anyone to have to suffer. I know that there are many people who will end up rejecting God, especially in these times. I pray God has mercy on their souls. I wouldn't want anyone to go to hell, and neither does God.

People want to have it both ways. They want Gods justice but not His punishment. God has made it very clear He isn't letting any sin into Heaven and everyone knows that. It is only by a narrow margin that anyone could be saved under these circumstances, which is why Jesus Christ died for us. He made a provision for humanity, which despite its continual sinning was well loved by its Creator, even to the point of the death of His own Son.

Justice will be done for the evil committed on Earth and sin wont be allowed in Heaven. Those who hear the message and reject it with receive a greater punishment. That is why, noticing the anti-christian bent on the sift, I have been posting the truth in the threads of anti-christian videos. It's not about my ego..it is about Gods truth and His Word, and compassion for our collective spiritual plight. I don't feel like I am going to make it half the time, and I certainly wouldnt try to put it on that I am somehow more worthy than someone else.

That being said, the lies of the devil are too numerous to count, and far too many people have been duped by them. Anything which points away from Gods truth is a lie, and at least in this country sinning has become socially acceptable, and is even admired. It is also socially acceptable to disparage and denigrate Christians, and obstensively members of other religions. I don't mind it for the Lords sake but the worst part of it for me is knowing that the ones doing this will be judged for it if they don't repent. Society has embraced sin and has become seriously dystopian and nihilisitic. In any case it isn't something I can live with so when there is anti-christian propaganda out there I will respond with the truth. Not to justify myself to someone telling me to fuck off, but as this rudimentry and poorly thought out opinion on me seems to be becoming a concensus, I think the truth is worth stating.

Shiny, as a corporeal representative for God's so-called everlasting/universal love, you seem to really relish the idea of people who, y'know, don't fall in line with your incomprehensible and unjustified self-enslavement and stuff BURNING IN HELL FOREVER.

But please, defer the blame for your petty (calling it childish would be an insult to actual well-adjusted children), crass behavior right on back to your evidence-less imaginary friend so you don't have to ever engage anyone in good faith, ever; we're all sinners and you're God's special child/saved and that's that. Actually, considering that, it might be a better idea if you just fuck right off. Go drop a turd in someone else's punch-bowl.

I do not need an imaginary friend to make it through life. I do not need a book 1500 years out of date to tell me how to live. I do not need an institution telling me how to think. I do not need a guy in a funny hat telling me what to believe. I do not need to be saved. I follow my morals not because I'm told I must. I follow them because it is my choice to do so. Telling me I need to follow a book or belief for the correct morals is akin to telling me if the book or belief did not exist you would be the evilest person here.
My life, My morals, My Choice.
I do not tell anyone what to think.
I do not tell anyone what to believe.
I do not force anyone to follow my beliefs or morals or choices.
I do not need an excuse for my beliefs or morals or choices.
I take full responsibility for my life and No one else.
End of line

Indeed, that does just about sum it up.
Kceaton doesn't need to try to negate your Christian god's omniscience (assuming the proposition that he exists in the first place is true, which you haven't even attempted to demonstrate). You did that just swimmingly all on your own, assuming again, that you're not a liar or playing Devil's Advocate and earnestly believe what you just typed.
Thanks for saving anyone with any inclination to refute your imaginary friend a whole lot of time by doing it for us. Also, cognitive dissonance doesn't mean what you think it means. I would say that you were a fantastic example of it in action but that means you would need to actually recognize (in some form) the incongruity of your own silly, self-contradictory beliefs and/or be bothered by it.






Reading comprehension must not be your strong point. Kceaton claimed his very post negated Gods omniscience. That is quite an amazing statement and I was curious as to how that was so. He also asked why the devil was evil, which I explained. He set the terms for the conversation, and I replied. Then you enter and attempt to speak for Kceaton, which no one asked you to do, as if you're the borg collective speaking with one voice. You completely misunderstood everything that is being discussed, glossing over the entire conversation with shallow conclusions, insults, and with absolutely no merit to anything you're saying. I mean I've stepped in deeper puddles.

You also claim that *my* post negates Gods omniscience. Then you go on to say my post negates Gods very existence. Wow. So you're not the sharpest knife in the drawer, I can understand that. I've met many teenagers on the internet who have difficulty forming cohesive arguments in their juvenile desire to attack anything which places their superficial worldview in jeapordy. Perhaps you're just used to shouting at people on XBOX live where you're dealing with beet level intelligence, but in the real world when we open our stupid traps to tear someone else down, it's helpful not to act a complete fool in the process, because when your hypocripsy is exposed (you're not a deep thinker) your criticisms ring rather hollow, and actually serve to show you up instead.

>> ^shinyblurry:


The funny part about saying that "The Devil"™ runs things down here is funny. The reason it's funny is that even when I was a fairly religious person I could never quite figure out why "The Devil"™ was so evil.
He disobeyed "God"™, but that was about it. Apparently, now, he runs a place called Hel or Helle(or if you prefer the misspelled version: hille, hillja, hell, etc...). He's also able to tempt us (or if you wish, we let him tempt us, giving him even less power) to do things; who knows what though. He's also supposed to be a fallen angel that many think to be red and ugly with horns. It should also be noted that Hell (Hel) has lakes of fire (which sounds cool; almost like Hawaii), but seems to lack all the horrific stuff you hear of elsewhere.
I'm just wondering, why Lucifer (The Bringer of Light) is so "Evil"™? Also, last time I checked "Free Will"™ was sitting around; so if "The Devil"™ runs Earth, why do we need that? His role greatly differs throughout the Christian realm of knowledge as well as those that are linked (like Judaism, Islam, etc...). The idea of a bad guy against the ultimate good guy sent here or another place are in many religions world wide. Some of those religions pre-date Christianity by more than a thousand years and Judaism by hundreds (if not more). Sometimes these "figureheads" have been concentrated into one form as they were once in the form of many figureheads, besides "God" and "the Devil".
There is a litany of things attributed to: Satan, ha-sataan(Judaism has no "real" direct version), Baal Davar, the Devil, Lucifer, Lord of Flies, Dragon (or serpent; is "believed" to be the serpent in the Garden of Eden), Beelzubub (if you like the demon storyline; not a Mormon thing), Iblis, Shaitan, Jinn, Ying-Yang (pick one), Vishnu (atleast one aspect), Set, Apep,Sammael, Belial, ad nauseum...
Anyway, he disagreed with God "about something"; the "about something" depends on the flavor you belong to.
To cut it short: Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Zoroastrianism... They all suffer from the same problem: cognitive dissonance. Not a one holds up to a double-blind scientific experiment, let alone a simple thought experiment. If we have a "God" they most certainly are not prescient or omnipotent. The fact that I can post this kills one half of the logic, the other logic "free will" seems to be negated by every law and fact of science ever put together. You have choice, but it most certainly is not absolute.


If you were formally religious I am surprised you don't understand why the Devil is evil. I'll elaborate on this..
In the beginning, when man still dwelled in the Garden of Eden, he existed in a perfect state of grace with God. There was no such thing as sin, or death. Adam and Eve, the first humans, walked and talked with God face to face. God, to test their hearts, only gave them one command..not to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He promised them that if they did so they would surely die.
Now the devil enters the picture. God had made him the most beautiful of all the angels, and gave him great power and dominion. The devil was soon corrupted by his own vanity however, because he started to think "I will be like the Most High" and desired to have his throne beside Gods. His sin was/is pride. Because of this, he was cast down to Earth.
Now God gave Earth to Adam. He was its ruler. Satan knew this, and knew that if he could corrupt him, he would gain power over the whole world because he would gain power over Adam. So the devil came to them and said that God was lying about the apple. That, not only would they not die, but they would become like God by eating it. After eating, Adam and Eve lost their innocence and the state of grace they enjoyed with God by sinning, and brought death into the world. From that moment on they were mortal beings with mortal needs.
Satan has been the ruler of this world since then. His power, however, was broken at Calvary when Christ died on the cross. Christ, the new Adam, lived a sinless life. Being born of a virgin, he did not inherit the sin of Adam. By living a sinless life, he redeemed mankind and gave all people on Earth a way to know God, His Father, through Him. When He died He went down to hell, battered down the gates, and took the power of death from the devil. When He was resurrected, He liberated mankind from the power of death, and was the first fruits of the world to come.
Now, Satan is still the ruler but on the run. He knows his time is short and growing ever shorter. His last shot is when the antichrist comes to power. Now, free will is fairly simple. You have the choice to obey or disobey Gods commands. God doesn't make you love Him. All those who delight in wickedness, however, will be punished on judgment day. Hell was not created for humans, but anyone who throws their lot in with the devil will earn the devils reward. His sin was pride, and so too are the ones who reject God similarly prideful, for they believe his lies and reject the truth.
That about sums it up. I would ascribe some cognitive dissonance to your post also, for your conclusions have seemingly been pulled from a hat. How does posting what you did negate anything about Gods omniscience, and how do the arbitrary rules of science say anything about free will? You may want to read about determinism vs free will for some background before you answer.


Indeed, that does just about sum it up.

Kceaton doesn't need to try to negate your Christian god's omniscience (assuming the proposition that he exists in the first place is true, which you haven't even attempted to demonstrate). You did that just swimmingly all on your own, assuming again, that you're not a liar or playing Devil's Advocate and earnestly believe what you just typed.

Thanks for saving anyone with any inclination to refute your imaginary friend a whole lot of time by doing it for us. Also, cognitive dissonance doesn't mean what you think it means. I would say that you were a fantastic example of it in action but that means you would need to actually recognize (in some form) the incongruity of your own silly, self-contradictory beliefs and/or be bothered by it.