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FOX isn't America's Pravda, it's closer to Der Stürmer.

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@JiggaJonson,

When you say:
...I'm against promoting the idea that torture works...

I can see where you are coming from on this. In the sense that it might then encourage people to accept using it, because it works.

My problem with that line of reasoning though is that torture actually is effective. The simplest proof being that we wouldn't have every single national intelligence agency using it(directly or indirectly by a less squeamish ally as we 'civilized' nations prefer to do it).

Your links to the ineffectiveness of torture only look at the narrowest possible goals from it. Somebody like Saddam Hussein usually didn't care about Jack Bauer style, minutes count specific intel. Getting the names of everyone you knew or 'conspired' with mattered, and torture IS effective at getting people to talk. The trouble your links note is that torture victims will say literally anything to get you to stop. When looking for information though, victims can't name real people unless they know them. Better still for guys like Saddam, if you get yourself 3 victims in the same movement, you can cross reference things and build a list of suspects. To more ethical nations like us that's unactionable intelligence, but if you don't care if you sweep up 5 innocents along with the 5 people that really were a threat to you, it still 'worked'.

Torture also is widely used simply as a tool to instill fear. When your citizens have seen the broken shells of people who's loyalty was deemed questionable, fear keeps them in step. It worked for Saddam until external forces stopped him, and it's helped keep 3 generations in power in North Korea.

Getting back closer to the video, things we don't like don't go away just because we refuse to talk about them. Rape, torture, and violence aren't like the boogeyman that will go away if we just stop talking and thinking about them so much. We need to accept that there are terrible things in our world that people do and benefit from doing them. These are things that people use to gain a feeling of power, or to truly gain real tangible power over other people.

Of course we have to discuss them responsibly, and the danger of shaming victims is an equally real thing to be aware of. At the same time though, humor is one of the ways of bridging the gap to people dealing with trauma, so jokes about things that cause trauma like rape, violence and torture have an honest place in making things better as well.

I love Yes -- they always bring me closer to the edge at the heart of the sunrise!

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Duh.

Edit: of the 3 groups, which had permits....natives
Of the 3 groups, which was still performing closing ceremonies of a permitted March...natives.
Of the 3 groups, which refrained from insulting the other two....natives.
Of the 3 groups, which tried to defuse rather than escalate....natives.

But the native elder calmly trying to defuse the escalating situation is the one in the wrong in your opinion.


The inevitable attack was against the Israelites, because the kids were getting irate, taking off their clothes, jumping around like madmen, and screaming insults at the Israelites. Before he came in drumming, it sure looked like violence was likely.

I watched it as many times as I'm going to, which was many, and when the elder stops there's plenty of room between everyone, then the kids move closer from every direction.

Look, you can bend over backwards to pretend the kids weren't also instigating, or being rude, or racist, but I must admit I'm floored people can see a gang of white kids gleefully tomahawk chopping and hi-ya-hi-ya-ing undeniably derisively at a native elder (veteran, but who knew that there) while smirking inches from his face as he's surrounded by their jeering buddies and instead of admitting what they see with their own eyes and hear with their ears, pretend the irate screaming kids were being respectful angels not disrespectful racist assholes. I see and hear what's on the video, you find excuses for it and pretend you don't hear racism in their racist taunting.

I'm most floored chaperones on a church field trip didn't just let the kids respond to the provocation of the Israelites (which is moronic and exactly what they wanted), they encouraged it and did nothing when it turned racist against the elder, just egged them on more. So much for Christ's teachings....fuck what he said if someone's teasing you, right? Christ said take an eye for an eye....oh wait, no he didn't.

@newtboy,

missed your reply, you need to check the video again as you clearly didn't watch what I'm watching.
You said:
"I disagree 100%. Sane people did this to stop the rapidly escalating anger between the kids and (disgusting) black Israelites before the kids attacked the Israelites, which seemed inevitable because no one was controlling the kids (or the small group of Black Israelites) and the kids were getting more and more rowdy."
At 1:09 the Black Israelites are making fun of the kids specifically because they are "keeping their distance". At 1:11 the kids are presumably standing/jumping doing one of their school chants, moving no closer to the black Israelites. At 1:12 after the chant, the kids all sit down. After the kids have been not only 'keeping their distance', but sitting down now for a minute is when Nathan Phillips comes in to 'de-escalate' things. You can not honestly paint that as looking like an 'inevitable attack' was coming from the kids. The reality is the kids were staying back, and sitting down while the Black Israelite adults continued trying unsuccessfully to escalate things.

You later said:
"and note smirk boy is not there, he gets into the stationary elders face later. "

If you look at 1:13, smirk boy is 3 rows back from the elder. If you watch till 1:14 you notice that the camera man isn't moving, but Phillips gets further and further away because is walking slowly into the crowd of students. The students don't so much surround him, they make way as he invades their personal space until they move until about 1:15. If you watch 1:15, the camera is the same place as it was back at 1:11, the kids are at the same distance from the camera and the same location on the stairs, but now you can't even see Phillips because he's so far into the group.

I gotta admit, I'm a little floored you can come away still seeing what you want to see...

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