No one understands Republicans. Their ideas are completely divorced from reality, science, reason, sanity, and morality.

If you don’t like the law, you can just move (remember, that’s your answer to why it’s ok for Republicans to CHANGE the laws). There are plenty of places where abortion is illegal….mostly shithole countries as you call them. Don’t make America one of those.

More lies and nonsense.
No one kills children like that besides Republicans getting secret back alley abortions…I only know you people do that because you accused others, and that’s a guarantee you guys do it no matter how outrageous and unreal the claim.
That is what WILL happen to embryos (not children you tool) in back alley abortion clinics without the proper tools, doctors, and zero oversight. Abortions won’t stop because you drove them into back alleys, they’ll just get more horrific, and that will be 100% on your heads.

Have Republicans set up agencies to take these unwanted children, over 600000 per year, and raise them all at now $275000 each and rising 3% per year? Have Republican doctors figured out how to force live births (without endangering the woman) at 6 weeks or later, and incubators to bring it to term? That’s probably another million on average. Of course not, let those babies starve or be abandoned to the elements, as long as they get born. You aren’t going to spend money to raise them, that’s the rape victim’s responsibility to raise their rapist’s baby. If they didn’t want that responsibility, they shouldn’t have gotten raped.

Are Republicans prepared to be forced to live in hospitals as living dialysis machines, living blood pumps, and living donors of any organ they have two of? If saving lives is important, you would have done all that before trying to remove women’s rights to their own bodies….but you haven’t done any of that because you don’t see women as people who deserve rights to control their own bodies, what’s put in them, and what they have to let grow inside them. Of course not. That’s inconvenient, so fuck those people who need your organs to live. Saving lives isn’t worth losing YOUR bodily autonomy….it’s only worth stripping others of theirs. Hypocrites.

Republicans LOVE killing, all republicans LOVE the death penalty for lesser and lesser crimes and younger and younger convicts. It’s not about stopping life from starting (which happens at first breath, not conception), it’s about controlling those that are their lessors. That’s why there’s no exceptions for rape, incest, or endangering the mother (except extremely rare cases in a few places). You don’t care a whit about what happens to the baby, even less about the mother, they’re nothing more than an incubator to your incel ilk.

Blobs aren’t children….or is that what you call your children? It would explain a lot. Nerve pulses aren’t a heartbeat without a heart. Humans don’t have tails. Zygotes aren’t people. I know you disagree with these scientific and medical facts, that only proves they’re correct.

Once again, you make up nonsense based on your pure ignorance, Cartman. You just look dumber, more sexist, and more dishonest daily.

So you didn't listen at all.
We didn't sell ANY uranium, we essentially sold stock in the company that mines it.
He just told you what went down, try listening.
Nefarious? Explain. Again, listen, she was barely involved in this normal transaction....but if doing business with Russia (in your official capacity, with full transparency, and in concert with multiple other agencies) is nefarious, Trump and his cabinet's multiple secret unauthorized and undisclosed back alley deals must be insanely worse, right?.

Above reproach, no one is. Is their charity head and shoulders above Trump's repeatedly sanctioned charity he uses like a personal bank account to buy himself portraits and fake Time covers? Absolutely. But that's a total misdirection red herring. Stay on target.

Yeah, yeah, think of the children....like the ones who are groomed generation after generation to become the carbon-copy cunt adults who keep this little game of hate going? Can you say, 'Fucked from birth??" How about you concentrate your efforts on eradicating shit-think programming? You talking about the ineffectual 'we' or just the gaggle of bleeding-hearts who come to cackle and rant about the world's injustices on a back-alley video-blog??

Deprogram half the motherfuckers on planet now and watch the game change in one generation.

"we just".....meh.
How 'boutcha sell that shit to your local broadcast affiliate's audience?!

An interesting discussion on both sides. I am in no way an Obama apologist [dft is not either], but I have to take exception to one statement.

@NobleOne: "I don't vote for the lesser evil."
Does that mean that you are okay with the Greater evil winning?

We already know that the GOP is using every dirty trick in the book; voter suppression, voter disenfranchisement, voter registration fraud, and downright voter fraud. If the election is even close they will take it to the United States Supreme Court (brought to you by Koch Ind.). The only way we can avoid this type of crap winning is if Obama wins by a very substantial margin.

If Obama wins--and you didn't vote for him--you can say, "I didn't vote for him--I stayed idealogically pure." What will you say--if Romney wins--as we watch him dismantle SS and Medicare, women are forced into back-alley, coathanger abortions, the disparity between rich and poor is more firmly entrenched and codified, the SCOTUS is even more packed with justices bought and payed for by big money, equal rights for LBGT and minorities are rescinded, and another war of distraction is waged?

A vote for Obama means that we may be able to force him into better positions and acts. Not voting means you are fine with the GOP stealing elections and running this country into the hell of a right-wing, Christianist theocracy.

@xxovercastxx
With regards to "What do I think is right?"
It seems that most of this approach is based on broad calculations and value judgements about quality of life and mother's opinions, with little to no intrinsic value placed on the fetus. That's likely to be the most difficult difference of opinion for us to overcome.

With regards to "What makes for a good law?"
I think arguing for the line to be drawn at birth doesn't stand up to scrutiny. They're just not that different as individuals in the time leading up to delivery for termination at that point to be sufficiently different conceptually from termination after birth. For most children, they could be delivered several weeks prior to their "due date" and thrive.

My perspective on the focus of legislation wouldn't be to lock up women, but limit their access to the procedure. If it were up to me (it isn't), making abortion illegal (eicoriottl...) would be directed at prohibiting doctors from performing the procedure.
Would this increase the incidence of "botched back alley abortions"? Almost certainly. Overall, however, I would expect the overall number of abortions would fall precipitously. Would fewer "unprepared" people have sex knowing that abortion wouldn't be an option? I don't know. Probably not? That'd probably be useful information to have. Would there be an increase in poverty? Possibly? Again, I don't know the answer to this one.

@ReverendTed

Abortion is not murder, but that's not really the point. America, and by extension, the world, doesn't really have a problem with killing as a whole. We war with ourselves and kill fellow beings in the name of religion, politics, land and other resources. We kill criminals if they commit heinous enough crimes. We kill vast amounts of wildlife for fun and sport. We kill flies and other insects merely because they bother us. We step on insects without even knowing it.

We humans kill.
We are killers.
There is no escaping this fact.
Create the right conditions and anyone will kill...anyone.

The only thing you can do is: 1. Hopefully create a world in the future where we don't have to kill as much and 2. Hope that we are killing for the right reasons. Sometimes this will be true, sometimes it won't be. But that's life. That's the human condition. A law will change nothing other than whether or not abortions are performed safely or not. I choose to live in a world where if someone I know decides to have an abortion, that they do it safely with a doctor and not in some back alley. Abortions will happen REGARDLESS of what the law says. If we're going to end an unborn child's life, let's at least make sure the mother remains safe. Outlawing abortions just increases the chance that we'll have two ended lives instead of just one.

Abortion, by definition is the LAWFUL termination of an unborn child...LAWFUL. Murder is the UNLAWFUL termination of a life. Key distinction there.

This false morality that some people are somehow above and beyond the rest of us mere mortals and hold life to be irrevocably sacred just does not understand history or the human condition. These sorts of people seem to be the same people who would casually send us to war for religious or ideological reasons and thus condone the termination of more lives. The hypocrisy is glaring.

In regards to this notion that a person would go have an abortion just because a baby would be inconvenient is sad certainly, but when it comes right down to it....tough. Cost of living in a free society. people are going to things you don't approve of. deal with it. Your rights end where mine begin and vice versa. People who go have abortions out of convenience are in the minority. Quit worrying about what the minority does..especially with their own body. You and I don't get to decide what is right for someone else.

We don't live in a post-scarcity world yet. If every viable pregnancy ever was brought to term, we would have an even bigger resource shortage problem on our hands.

We live in a world where your quality of life (and your offspring) is directly related to your job. Until the quality of life of humanity becomes more equalized, We are going to continue to have situations where if someone gets pregnant it will directly affect their quality of life (and their child's) for the worse. So I really don't have a problem with someone terminating the pregnancy so that they go on to improve their quality of life so that they can have a kid later who will benefit from that better quality of life.

I too would ideally prefer adoption to abortion. But that's not exactly saying much. Adoption agencies have tons of kids and not enough parents to go around. As fertility science continues to improve, fewer and fewer parents are going to want adoption when they can just undergo a procedure and still have their own. This recently happened to a friend of mine who was having difficulty conceiving. She and her husband initially decided to adopt, but at some point, they changed their mind and pursued some massively costly fertility treatments so that they eventually did conceive. I was immensely happy for her, but at the same time, I personally felt they should have stuck with the adoption as those orphans are already here and need help now. But here's the thing. It's not my choice, it's hers and her husbands. So we can deal with the realities of the situation or continue to play hypotheticals. If everyone gave their kid up for adoption instead of abortion, we'd just have a different kind of problem and the quality of life of a vast amount of kids would be affected for the worse.

As for your big questions, They are best left to people far more educated on this subject than you and I. Of course there is some point in a pregnancy where abortion should no longer be an option. I don't think anyone is arguing this. As you say, the question is when. I simply don't know and am unqualified to make that judgement. No matter what is decided upon, it obviously won't satisfy everyone, but a decision has to be made and you can't please everyone.

>> ^bobknight33:

It is said...


It is said? What, in hushed whispers through the back alleys within the kingdom? You sound like those handmaidens in Game of Thrones "Moon is goddess, it is known.

Face punching for itunes credits, the gateway to back-alley blowjobs for twenties.

>> ^EMPIRE:

oh... so the crash is an opportunity for assholes like this to make a buck. He actually said he dreams of another recession. WHAT a HUGE fucking piece of shit. It's horrible people like this asshole who created this mess.


Yes this guy should have a bullet in his brain in a back alley but life isn't fair.

He'll think he has superpowers and get a shock when he tries this again in a back alley somewhere.

i posted a sift talk about this after i attended a planned parenthood rally a while back. there are some who, as individuals, view the debate as life and death. i understand that. and i respect it. if i thought that was actually what the pro-life movement was about, i might be behind it. like sdxgundam, i also oppose abortion on moral grounds. but a pro-life movement must be 100% pro-life. at every stage of life. and i haven't seen evidence that it is.

it's not about that though. the movement as a whole and the powerful men in legislative positions or behind an alter that stoke the fires of the pro-life movement seek one thing, control. it's about controlling women and their sexuality. because history has been sooo very very threatened by female sexual power.

it's about distraction because if you can have one group yelling at the other group about something so passionately, that on the grand scale of global issues doesn't really even weigh in.. then you can keep them from yelling about the mass murder and theft that is committed every single day.

banning abortion does not save lives. it does not stop unwanted pregnancies. it does end rape or incest or poverty or unprotected sex or hormonal teenagers making impulsive decisions or desperation or suffering or medical emergencies or child abuse or spousal abuse. it doesn't even end abortion.

it pushes to back alley clinics and kitchen tables where unsanitary conditions threaten the lives of both mother and child. >> ^GeeSussFreeK:

>> ^RFlagg:
And yet Republicans claim that it is the Democrats who want to control how people live their lives and that they are for freedom... despite the Republicans being the party to control who people can marry, want to control woman's rights, they are the party that want to keep the drug war going far more so than the other, they are the ones behind the Patriot Act... about the only right they seem to be ahead of the Democrats on is gun control.

While I most agree with this, nearly completely, those against abortion equate it to murder...something government is most assuredly involved in. I find the debate on abortion good, in a way. One side is valuing life, the other liberty...both of the things that make this union great. I kind of wish people would see it like that instead of each side as the devil.

Haven't these people seen Dirty Dancing? Back alley abortions never end well. You don't just kill the baby, you kill your ability to dance.

@geesussfreak, I get that there are some who see abortion as murder. I respect that.

What bothers me is that they so desperately want to save the life of the unborn fetus while being for the death penalty and against welfare support for the child once it is born. They don't mind if a woman dies carrying a baby to term. They block sex education and contraception so that unwanted babies aren't created. They aren't so careful with the mental health of young girls and women who have been raped and empregnanted by their abusers.

It is the inconsistency that bothers me.

The world is a harsh place. Horrible things happen. All we can do is minimize the damage as best we can.

Forcing women and children into back alleys for abortions desperately desired is not a solution.



>> ^GeeSussFreeK:

>> ^RFlagg:
And yet Republicans claim that it is the Democrats who want to control how people live their lives and that they are for freedom... despite the Republicans being the party to control who people can marry, want to control woman's rights, they are the party that want to keep the drug war going far more so than the other, they are the ones behind the Patriot Act... about the only right they seem to be ahead of the Democrats on is gun control.

While I most agree with this, nearly completely, those against abortion equate it to murder...something government is most assuredly involved in. I find the debate on abortion good, in a way. One side is valuing life, the other liberty...both of the things that make this union great. I kind of wish people would see it like that instead of each side as the devil.

When origami and back alleys collide.