“ my solution would be every able bodied Jewish man and woman join the French (or Polish, Russian, British) army and fucking fight…”

I agree that’s the noble thing to do, but I can’t condemn the ones that choose to seek safety in numbers with Jewish Palestinians as exclusively invasion minded aggressors. My 6 million tag was maybe a bit sharp, but you also know that the Nazi’s took Paris and as much as it sucked to be French or European under Nazi occupation, you also know adding Jewish to that carried a lot of extra consequence and danger to your family.

My POV is agnostic of everything save Isreali people today having a right exist as a nation. Which at this point from my POV leaves 1947 as somewhat academic.

It’s your insistence that Jewish people, and the existence of Israel, have always fundamentally been invaders that I was objecting to as it is so intensely at odds with factual history.

You gave a brief nod on not being a scholar of Palestinian history, but then proceed to just count all Jewish refugees as good as Zionist aggressors from day 1(or close enough), and the local Arab population as nothing but pure, kind caring victims of these invaders.

I will state again, that is ahistorical propaganda and NOT what actually happened. And for my POV, its enough generations back as to be Academic, but for your POV it is fundamental because without being able to writeoff Israel as invaders from day 1, nuance enters the calculus and suddenly the conflict is flooded with shades of grey because lots of parties all contribute to the bloodshed, and many with reasonable motivations from both sides yet too.

Please find me any reputable sources to refute the reality of 1920-1940s Palestine:
-Mass Jewish immigration fleeing European oppression raised tensions between Jewish and Arab Palestinians.(as one must expect)
-Arab palestinians were already chaffing and resisting British colonial rule(as one must expect)
-These tensions led conflict, initially more ‘civil’ with the Arab majority trying to refuse all business, sales and trade with all Jews.
-Escalation followed throughout that time, but in drips and drops and NOT a ‘surprise the Zionist army has arrived’! style of aggression

The violent escalation was a fight here, a beating there. Little individual fights, escalating into deaths. Retaliations slowly grew, with each side exchanging small escalations.

-the culmination of this was eventually all out civil war, and the Jewish side immediately accepting a UN mandated 2 state solution

-this culmination coinciding with the end of WW2 and revelations of the true extent of the holocaust can’t be ignored, it certainly shaped the Jewish mindset in the conflict.

-Their mindset was pretty clearly not inaccurate either, as the immediate response of all neighbouring Arab nations was a declaration of war on the new ‘state’, with bold claims of how quickly the Jews would be swept into the sea. The confidence was so high, a call was sent it for ALL Arab palestinians to abandon and flee the entire region of Palestine to better enable the complete cleansing of the land.

The above is all pretty much inarguably factual, and I’d bargain you could get an Arabic and Israeli scholar together to more or less agree on those facts which is saying alot.

——
Propaganda from both sides would like to declare that the Arabs harboured deep Nazi sympathies, and thus Israel was pure and true in all it did. Or from the other side, more or less your narrative of Zionist bad guys launching invasion from day 1(ish).

Both though are just sprinklings of half truths, with anti-British resentment naturally breeding some leanings towards the axis, and even genuine Nazi cleanse the Jews believers. And absolutely Zionists featured prominently within the Jewish population. Neither of those partial truths though make the propaganda of either side true, but instead just an incomplete and intentionally biased picture.


Again, please find me sources demonstrating I’m terribly wrong on all that, but the only ones I can find are clearly biased and the accurate accounts paint the picture above, the propaganda very, very clearly copies the real story more or less with just deletions of inconvenient bits

I count it as a hyper generous humanitarian gift given by Palestinians on day 1 that by day 3 (year 10+-) had become an invasion of hostile violent foreigners.

Because I don’t have a perfect solution for a problem no one could solve at the time does not in any way shape or form excuse the hostile invasion or fascist racist genocidal regimes since…
…but my solution would be every able bodied Jewish man and woman join the French (or Polish, Russian, British) army and fucking fight, not run off and invade elsewhere. If they had the fighters to take Israel, they had the fighters to turn the war years earlier, but went for invasion and occupation instead.

So, you DO think the people of Haiti have the right to come to your doorstep and toss you in the street. I disagree. I reiterate, not being safe at home is no excuse to go elsewhere and make it’s inhabitants unsafe, especially if those inhabitants had nothing to do with you being unsafe, more so if they actually stuck their neck out to make some of your family safe.

I’ll try to unscramble that…”what would I have the existing Jewish Palestinian population and new refugees do with themselves once in Palestine?”…the native Jews, nothing. They’re citizens. The refugees, refugee camps of a certain size and no over crowding. Once they’re full, go elsewhere. There were other places to go, although limited. The British had an obligation to support the Palestinians and prepare them to run the country, an obligation they completely shirked and instead facilitated the invasion of hostile foreigners while keeping the Palestinians defenseless.

Fuck you 6 million. They weren’t waiting for legal avenues for immigration. Those people for the most part had no option to be refugees or decide a thing, the Germans and Polish essentially woke up one day unable to travel. The people we are talking about had over a decade, and included Germans.

No, my POV relies on the theory that you having a bad time doesn’t give you a license to murder me and steal my stuff and subjugate my descendants horrifically.
Historically many groups have had tough scary times, many ending in actual genocide. Few took that as an opportunity to do the same to another group that was trying to help them out of the tough spot. Zionists did….and with Americans help. I’ll never stop pointing it out.
The Palestinians in Gaza are suffering a genocide today. Do they have a right to go invade some weaker nation for their safety? No. That’s not reasonable or acceptable.

I think your POV relies on the theory that, because Jews were being increasingly persecuted in Europe that gives them the right to take a friendly nation by force and subjugate and persecute its people forever…

Maybe let’s try a different tack to common ground.

It feels like the fundamental difference is on the reasonableness of the actions of the Jewish population in the 40s. I count it within reason enough to acknowledge the right of Israel to exist as a nation, while you count it a foreign invader from day 0(or maybe day 5 or 6).

What would you have had the Jewish European people in the 30s/40s do?

I’d like to rule out ‘wait patiently for legal avenues of immigration’ on account of at least 6million doing that, but…

It depends on the first answer, but if your answer includes the option of seeking refuge amongst the Jewish population in Palestine, then the followup:
What you have had the existing Jewish Palestinian population and new refugees do with themselves once in Palestine?

I kinda feel your POV requires the belief that, again humbly waiting for fair treatment was gonna work out well for them…

"welcomed a relatively small number of European Jewish refugees in the 30’s while under British rule"
The Jewish population in Palestine approximately doubled from 84k in 1922 to 175k in 1931, and tensions already started pretty heavily then in 1931. The Arab narrative is pretty emphatic that the invasion start in the 1920s(and unspoken, the resistance and tension internally between Jew and Arab too).


"Then in the 40’s the Jewish minority, America, and England ignored their pleas to minimize immigration, ignored immigration laws, and invited a major invasion, so many European Jews came illegally..."

Come now, don't play dumb, you left out any reason why European Jews might do this outside of 'launching an invasion'. What other motive might 1940's Jewish Europeans have had to ignore immigration laws to migrate out of Europe????


That's where your narrative and mine clash irrevocably. I count the refugee flight from 1940s Europe to be even more desperate than the plight the Palestinians in Gaza face today. I can not accept your POV where upon arriving in Palestine and facing violence and discrimination there too, that it's just plain and simply obvious that the Jewish people's are invaders and bad guys with no right to an existence in the land they fled to.

You know, unless you want to credit Trump's MAGA approach to the southern border as valid cause it's awful similar, save that the Jewish people were facing much more desperate circumstances

Tragically it's all more complicated than anyone can really state, right? I mean, if you had a 30 book(10k pages a book) series solely on the conditions in the region of Palestine between 1930 and today you'd still have so much material to cut, you could limit all 30 books to only 1 sides POV.

The closest I see to shortcutting things, is trying view what is likely to happen in the future, and from that maybe what one might try and do.

The trouble being there's so little one can do. The reality is that Israeli military strength compared to Palestine is completely and entirely one sided, and thus Israel can and will do whatever it wishes to militarily. It's all their choice, period. In fairness to Israel, you have to note that Hamas as stated in their own charter, given that same power would've already cleansed the entirety of Israel and have created their own single state 'final' solution.

It's also not actually about Palestine vs. Israel, which should be obvious given the fact of Israel's military dominance. Israel IS really facing existentially threats of it's own, just not directly from Palestine, and instead from ALL of it's neighbours. That state of constantly requiring Israel to be capable of winning an existential war since it's inception has kept things in a perpetual state of near-war, and more often proxy-war with the Palestiniances as the pawns of alternately Iran, Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and others depending which time and region we choose to look at.

Predictively, that gives us that Isreal can not, under any circumstances, accept conditions to exist where any party(in particular Iran as the main backer) views the "Al Aqsa Flood operation" as a success. That means Israel will do whatever they deem necessary to ensure that happens and Iran in particular views that operation as a mistake. Nothing the UN or any of the rest of us say or do can change that.

On capital punishment I guess I am somewhat from the Canadian POV. IMO the defense for a Death sentence shouldn't lie in 'punishment' but in public protection against re-offending. If crimes are sufficiently egregious I think you can make the argument that the rights of the convicted are outweighed by the need to protect society given society may have reasonable cause for mistrust of the future actions of someone who's already committed something particularly heinous.

Careful @newtboy, you're sounding a bit like a conservative on this one from the Canadian POV.

A terrorist that shot 12 people in a mosque, killing 6 was sentenced under new Conservative law that allowed sentences like murder to be applied consecutively. More details in the link below, but our liberal dominated Supreme Court ruled the 40 years without a parole chance was "cruel and unusual".

So our gov. will be giving them a chance at parole in 2039.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/supreme-court-canada-bissonnette-mosque-shooting-sentence-parole-1.6466847

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Not hacked.

Just an unfiltered ( by fake news) POV from someone who feels strongly about this issue.



I happen to disagree but but it is refreshing to hear a real voice.

Just imagine if there was a POV video of this ....
Oh.

https://youtu.be/moUzR9hbfeA?t=32

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Important POV from a feeble old man.

Russians did interfere and Obama administration knew it and did nothing to stop it.

Trump won fair and square.

Bitter losers