>> ^arekin:
there is a good reason that jets don't take off vertically.


Because it is unstable and it uses a lot of fuel. But an F-15 could otherwise take off vertically, with a thrust to weight ratio as high as 1.6 with afterburners going. I'm not sure it could actually achieve that thrust while stationary, though.

http://folklorewiki.lydiafish.us/pmwiki.php/Main/GiveMeOperations

Give Me Operations

Don’t give me a P-38; the props, they counter-rotate
She’s scattered and smitten from Burma to Britain
Don’t give me a P-38, NO!

CHORUS:
Give me operations way out on some lonely atoll
For I am too young to die; I just want to grow old

Don’t give me a P-39; the engine is mounted behind
She’ll tumble and spin, and she'll auger you in
Don’t give me a P-39

CHORUS

Don’t give me a Peter-four-oh; it’s a hell of an airplane, I know
A ground-looping bastard, you’re sure to get plastered
Don’t give me a Peter-four-oh

CHORUS

Don’t give me an 86D, with rockets, radar, and AB
She’s fast, I don’t care; she blows up in mid-air
Don’t give me an 86D

CHORUS

Don't give me an F-84, she's just a ground-loving whore
She'll whine and she'll wheeze and make straight for the trees
Don't give me an F-84

Just give me operations way out on some lonely atoll
For I am too young to die; I just want to grow old

=====

this was filmed during Eurofighter's practice display at 2005 RIAT (Royal International Air Tattoo), Fairford airfield. this is what I managed to find about the incident - from an aviation photographer, who was present at the practice: "during the Eurofighter Typhoon practice display the pilot (a Sqn Leader) made a serious misjudgement which caused the tower to call an immediate halt to his display (STOP STOP STOP heard on radio) and land. As he was only 1.5 minutes into his 10+ minute display he flew to high altitude with afterburners on to burn off the fuel before landing. Apparently later that evening he re-did his practice but removing one of the sequences and got approval for displaying on the Saturday/Sunday." (read more)
here's the same event filmed from the other side of the runway: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwEAr5MtCbA

It still had some RPM left I suspect, that flame was way to red, should be a blueish at full afterburner levels. Very awesome though

What? No afterburners? My Ford Fiesta has afterburners...

A lot of military-grade jet engines use afterburners, which ignite a second fuel stream injected past the turbine. Gives a lot more power, but at a huge efficiency cost. It certainly looks like the truck is using those at the end, when it accelerates down the track. All those showy flames in the first part of the vid look to be cosmetic, though. Probably something installed to burn some extra inflammant, which the truck is already using to make the exhaust coming out of the smokestacks flame up.

^Them be AFTERBURNERS baby!


The ones going out the top, from the "normal" stacks? Yeah, pure Whoopidty.

1972 Pong (Atari, Arcade)
1980 Space Invaders (Atari, Atari 2600)
1980 Defender (Williams, Arcade)
1980 Adventure (Atari, Atari 2600)
1981 Pac-Man (Namco, Arcade)
1981 Ultima (California Pacific, Apple II)
1981 Frogger (Konami, Atari 2600)
1982 Pitfall (Atari, Atari 2600)
1983 Centipede (Atari, Atari 2600)
1983 Pole Position (Atari, Atari 2600)
1983 Microsoft Flight Simulator (Microsoft, PC)
1984 Donkey Kong (Nintendo, NES)
1984 King's Quest (Sierra, PC)
1985 Super Mario Bros. (Nintendo, NES)
1985 Duck Hunt (Nintendo, NES)
1986 Bubble Bobble (Taito, Arcade)
1986 The Legend of Zelda (Nintendo, NES)
1986 Space Quest (Sierra, PC)
1986 Metroid (Nintendo, NES)
1987 Leisure Suit Larry (Sierra, PC)
1987 Final Fantasy (Nintendo, NES)
1987 Afterburner (Sega, Arcade)
1987 Castlevania (Konami, NES)
1987 Maniac Mansion (LucasArts, PC)
1987 Mega Man (Capcom, NES)
1988 Double Dragon (Tradewest, NES)
1988 Battle Chess (Interplay, PC)
1989 Prince of Persia (Broderbund, PC)
1989 Tetris (Nintendo, Nintendo Gameboy)
1989 SimCity (Maxis, PC)
1989 Golden Axe (Sega, Arcade)
1990 Commander Keen (ID Software, PC)
1990 Secret of Monkey Island (LucasArts, PC)
1991 Civilization (Microprose, PC)
1991 Micro Machines (NES, Codemasters)
1991 Lemmings (Psygnosis, PC)
1991 Out of this World (Delphine Software, PC)
1991 Sonic the Hedgehog (Sega, Sega Genesis)
1991 Zelda: A Link to the Past (Nintendo, SNES)
1992 Sensible Soccer (Sensible Software, PC)
1992 Dune II (Westwood Studios, PC)
1992 Wolfenstein 3D (ID Software, PC)
1992 Flashback (Delphine Software, PC)
1992 Indiana Jones & the Fate of Atlantis (LucasArts, PC)
1992 Super Mario Kart (Nintendo, SNES)
1992 Alone in the Dark (Infogrames, PC)
1992 Street Fighter II (Capcom, SNES)
1992 Mortal Kombat (Midway, Sega Genesis)
1992 Minesweeper (Windows Desktop Game)
1993 Sam & Max Hit the Road (LucasArts, PC)
1993 Doom (ID Software, PC)
1993 Myst (Broderbund, PC)
1993 FIFA Soccer '94 (Electronic Arts, Sega Genesis)
1993 SimCity 2000 (Maxis, PC)
1994 The Settlers (Blue Byte Software, PC)
1994 Earthworm Jim (Shiny Entertainment, Sega Genesis)
1994 Need for Speed (Electronic Arts, 3DO)
1994 Donkey Kong Country (Nintendo, SNES)
1994 Worms (Ocean, PC)
1995 Command & Conquer (Westwood Studios, PC)
1995 Rayman (Ubisoft, Atari Jaguar)
1995 Daytona USA (Sega, Sega Saturn)
1995 Virtua Fighter (Sega, Sega Saturn)
1995 Ridge Racer (Namco, Playstation)
1995 Tekken (Namco, Sony Playstation)
1996 Tomb Raider (Eidos Interactive, Sony Playstation)
1996 Quake (ID Software, PC)
1996 Super Mario 64 (Nintendo, Nintendo 64)
1996 Resident Evil (Capcom, Playstation)
1996 Dead or Alive (Tecmo, Arcade)
1997 Ultima Online (Origin, PC)
1997 Age of Empires (Microsoft, PC)
1998 Unreal (Epic Games, PC)
1998 Half-Life (Sierra, PC)
1998 Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time (Nintendo, Nintendo Gamecube)
2000 The Sims (Maxis, PC)
2000 Crazy Taxi (Sega, Sega Dreamcast)
2001 Halo (Bungie Studios, Xbox)
2001 Grand Theft Auto III (Rockstar Games, Playstation 2)
2002 WarCraft III (Blizzard, PC)
2003 Call of Duty (Activision, PC)
2004 Wario Ware Inc. (Nintendo, Nintendo Gamecube)
2004 Rome Total War (Sega, PC)
2005 World of Warcraft (Blizzard, PC)
2005 God of War (SCEA, Playstation)
2005 Guitar Hero (Red Octane, Playstation 2)
2006 Final Fantasy XII (Square Enix, Playstation 2)
2006 FIFA Soccer '07 (Electronic Arts, Xbox 360)
2007 Gears of War (Microsoft, Xbox 360)
2006 Wii Sports (Nintendo, Nintendo Wii)
2006 Viva Pinata (Microsoft, Xbox 360)
2007 MotorStorm (Sony, Sony Playstation 3)

LOL that is awesome, I flew these in 'Nam in 67. We'd wait under the rice paddies with just our canopies barely breaking the surface. I still remember the smell of the dank water and scrubbing the cooked kernels from our afterburners.

*1*
I read the article on scrambling. Note that the article itself states that scrambling is MUCH more common AFTER 9/11:
"From Sept. 11 to June, NORAD scrambled jets or diverted combat air patrols 462 times, almost seven times as often as the 67 scrambles from September 2000 to June 2001, Martin said."

Same article:
" "We considered it at that time to be a possible hijacking," air traffic manager Glenn Michael said.

The FAA notified NORAD 15 minutes later; three minutes after that, NORAD was told United Airlines Flight 175 had been hijacked. (Note: later sources say 18 minutes.)

The first two military interceptors, Air Force F-15 Eagles from Otis Air Force Base in Massachusetts, scrambled airborne at 8:52 a.m., too late to do anything about the second jet heading for the Trade Center or a third heading toward the Pentagon. "

The Norad site doesn't convince me of anything malevolent - they screwed up, or didn't hurry (which, in itself, is a kind of screw up in this situation).

The fact that entire squadrons of planes weren't scrambled isn't a big shock - oh no, they didn't scramble from 'the most logical base.'

Generally speaking, you only have a pair of jets ready to go, and not necessarily at all bases. They sent up the first available planes. It's not like the jetliners can shoot back; sending up more jets wouldn't serve much purpose.

As for the tiresome, "oooh, they only flew at 25% of top speed," three things:
1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-15
Maximum speed: Mach 1.2, 900 mph at low altitude; Mach 2.5, 1,650 mph at high altitude (1,450 km/h / 2,655 km/h)
2. with the afterburner on, a jet fighter will shred jetfuel like a grunt about to be deployed to Iraq will drink booze
3. max range of planes is based on full fuel load; we don't know (A) if the planes had fuel fueld loads, and (B) the pilots didn't know how far they would be chasing the jetliners! (note that article about Stewart has a running theme: escorts kept swapping out b/c of need to refuel!)

*2*
Debris spread: depends on how you crash. 'Lawn dart', or skid?
I really don't see what hte issue is? Do they believe there should be a larger or smaller debris field in the case of a shoot-down?

You suggest that an 8 mile spread should be a cause for concern. After reading the claims, I started to wonder if an 8 mile spread wouldn't be more consistent with a shoot-down than a regular crash, but concluded that either is possible.

Here'a 1km debris field crash: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Airlines_Flight_981

That satisfies me that it's entirely possible.

Wiki has several lists - if you're not happy with that example, you can scour some more:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_disasters#Air_disasters
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:In-flight_airliner_structural_failures

I really don't see any evidence to convince me not to think it came down through the efforts of the people onboard.

*****
This "wanttoknow" site is rather awkwardly designed; I can't tell if the documents are supposed to support or refute their claims. I mean, if the information is hidden there's a cover-up. The screw-ups are pretty well known, though. And they stem from the fact that US Intel had a 50+ year mission to make sure that there would be "no more Pearl Harbors," which was modified to "no atomic Pearl Harbors".

Their mission had not fundamentally shifted until after 9/11.
*****

*3*
And as for the President not being evacuated?
Yes, I can explain that, and I'll go beyond incompetence/panic.
Before doing that, I'll just explain what the incompetence argument means: you're dealing with an Administration which had a YEAR to plan for what to do in Iraq. They could've prepared more troops - there was no rush! - and handily had a robust force in place to secure all those weapons caches that the IEDs are coming from, not to mention to prevent the initial looting and all the other chaos.

Argument #2:
Dubya could've said, "sorry kids, gotta go." But he sat there like a deer caught in the headlights of an oncoming 18-wheeler.

Yeah, his agents could've been like, "go go go", but this isn't Red Alert 2 (great game, btw), but real life. If the C-in-C is staying put - and he's sitting in front of TV cameras - you're putting your career on the line if you're going to dart in and drag him out.

It was up to Dubya to move, and he didn't.

Besides, if you want to talk fighter escort, it would be likelier for the local Air National Guard to scramble to protect him than another site in the country, so you've got an additional layer of security right there, although I admit that's little more than idle speculation over classified security protocols.

Man, fisking takes forever.

btw, sterling comment as usual, deathcow.