Gordon Brown's adviser calls for UK population reduction..

Certainly Possible. As a pre-emptive measure, I say we go ahead and cull all the worlds leaders and all those with net assets greater than $100,000,000.

Seriously, I just want to make it through the next 50 years without some greedy asshole fucking up the whole planet.

What a sack of paranoid horse shit. As a virologist who knows people in the CDC, people who find vaccine targets, people who make vaccines, and just about every other part of the scientific process of virus study, I'll tell you that this is beyond irresponsible. This is downright delusional paranoia and could be seriously harmful to public thought on a topic so important as this. Heck, right now I'm at an international meeting of virologists and have been for almost a week. Nice timing. Just yesterday, I spent an hour chatting with a CDC virologist. I'm actually thinking of making a career IN the CDC for crying out loud. So I guess you can go ahead and lump me in with all those evil genocidal monsters?

Just about everything in this article is completely false and outrageously stupid. Whoever this ignorant Burgermeister person is should stop spreading blatant lies and see a psychiatrist and soon. Medication is in order.

Nothing pointed at you Endall of course, just this crazy Jane. She should stick to burgers and leave the science to us.

Did you read through the evidence Burgermeister compiled, in the link at the top? Or just the article I quoted afterward?

I might get around to it when I cool down. Sorry for the flare-up, but the whole "scientists and the government are in bed together in a sinister plot" theme is old and unendingly frustrating to us.

One note though. Vaccines are most certainly never laced with other dangerously altered viruses. That's just nonsense. Often other viruses are used AS vaccines in order to get the best immune response and thus the best immunity in general. Another thing that is done is use of a harmless virus as a way of expressing proteins from a harmFUL virus so that you can gain immunity to the harmFUL virus via the harmless one. For example: The small pox vaccine is actually a live (attenuated, meaning ...um... I guess you could say that means it was genetically altered to be less dangerous) vaccinia virus... and it actually causes a little infection and thus a sore where it is administered, but it sure as hell beats dying for small pox. A good number of my friends have the vaccinia vaccination... because they actually work with vaccinia itself,

I don't think anyone is placing blame upon the well-intentioned, honorable scientists doing this work oblivious to its large-scale consequences. There is corruption in large government institutions, though. Take for example the FDA, although the scientists there would not comply:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/18/health/policy/18fda.html

So every virologist in the world automatically gets subscribed to the Baxter World Domination e-mail list?

>> ^Doc_M:
What a sack of paranoid horse shit. As a virologist who knows people in the CDC, people who find vaccine targets, people who make vaccines, and just about every other part of the scientific process of virus study, I'll tell you that this is beyond irresponsible.

Your naivety is gonna get people killed

http://www.videosift.com/video/Secret-Military-Vaccinations-Infecting-Soldiers-Coverup

Are you sure this wasn't the plot to some Bond movie or some blockbuster hit?

Someday I need to put together a grand theory on the origin and nature of conspiracy theories, and try to prove an evolutionary linkage between them and more modern memetic virii like spam and computer viruses.

They certainly seem to be evolving on a parallel path. Computer viruses were originally the playthings of bored nerds with semi-destructive streaks, but eventually evolved into tools to be used for profit. In the same way, I think a lot of older conspiracy theories were just made up by people with too much time on their hands, but have now evolved into intentional viral propaganda (see virtually anything a spam e-mail says).

It seems to me that there should be some sort of (relatively) simple informational filter that could be developed to help separate the wheat from the chaff.

I suspect a few basic tests could weed most of them out, starting with:

1. Does the conspiracy story put forth a falsifiable hypothesis?
   
2. Does the conspiracy theory provide a better fit to the observed data than the conventional one?
   
3. Does the conspiracy theory ascribe plausible means, motive, and opportunity to carry it out?
   
4. Does the conspiracy theory explain why information about its existence has been permitted to leak out?
   

This one actually passes the first test, since it's predicting a global pandemic that significantly reduces the population, though I suppose since they don't give us a timeline they can always claim that they're still "working out the details" or something.

In this particular case, I think "motive" is highly questionable. Malthusian economics have kinda fallen by the wayside. There's no particular reason to think that population reduction would be a net benefit to our current economy. If it's to follow the Georgia Guidestone's plan, then becoming more attuned to nature would steer me more towards a conspiracy to get us to stop using coal, oil, eating meat, spraying pesticides, fertilizer, etc. and force us all to reuse & recycle everything.

The WHO planning to decimate the earth's population in pursuit of an excuse to centralize power in a world government while enacting a radical environmentalist agenda sure sounds like conservative propaganda to me.

Maybe there's some crony capitalism going on with who's getting contracts to supply the vaccine. That part I buy. Everything else sounds like "Obama has never been able to produce a Birth Certificate" to me.

This is more retarded then the 9/11 conspiracy.

Did you visit the link at the top and take a look at any of the evidence compiled?

Everything else sounds like "Obama has never been able to produce a Birth Certificate" to me.

You're so caught up on this issue, and the whole left-right debacle, while this has nothing to do with it!

" -- though I suppose since they don't give us a timeline they can always claim that they're still "working out the details" or something."

It's happening day by day.

There's no particular reason to think that population reduction would be a net benefit to our current economy.

It would be a net benefit to our planet, while getting rid of those who are heavily dependent upon their governments.. and if you consider who would be behind this, it would be very rich and powerful people, who probably wouldn't care to milk the masses anymore than they already have.

If it's to follow the Georgia Guidestone's plan, then becoming more attuned to nature would steer me more towards a conspiracy to get us to stop using coal, oil, eating meat, spraying pesticides, fertilizer, etc. and force us all to reuse & recycle everything.

Err, while that is part of the "plan" - that's not the heart of it. And would you really set in stone for all to see every intention you had in mind? Of course there's an environmental spin on it.

The WHO planning to decimate the earth's population in pursuit of an excuse to centralize power in a world government while enacting a radical environmentalist agenda sure sounds like conservative propaganda to me.

There you go again, stuck in your left/right paradigm! This is not being done by the WHO, though they are playing a major role.

I dunno what else to say in response. I've been up all night. Hopefully we get some more thoughts on the issue from others. I sure would like this all to be bullshit.

I know I'm just asking to be derided for my defense of this, but I think it should be given a little more looking into than the usual hogwash.. and the implications if true are staggering, so I don't think it would be wise to simply overlook.

Farhad - the 9/11 conspiracy isn't so retarded. The official report was less than adequate in answering all the questions, and there has been new evidence lately adding smoke to this smoldering gun. There are very respected academics asking questions now, too, as more and more bits and pieces of evidence turn up.

http://www.voltairenet.org/article160636.html

http://dprogram.net/2009/04/06/exotic-high-tech-explosives-positively-identified-in-world-trade-center-dust/

http://www.bentham-open.org/pages/content.php?TOCPJ/2009/00000002/00000001/7TOCPJ.SGM -- the study described in above article

Er. Have you read the stuff on that page, EndAll? Could you summarize it for us? Honestly, I made an effort, but half of it's in German and the other half is in Lawyer. The first one I clicked on had 230 words in the very first sentence. I'm admittedly pretty tired right now, but I couldn't parse it at all.

Skip the first set of links and the rest is English, I believe. I've read a good bunch so far, but only stumbled upon it recently so no I haven't read all of it.

Okay, so I skimmed the WHO documents. I'm a physicist and not a doctor/virologist/biologist, but the "WHO - Documents: (proving they want to turn vaccines into killers)" really just seem to be papers that say: "This is how viruses act. This is how the human body responds to them. We should investigate these aspects of it." I don't see anything scary there. Maybe she's flying off the handle about the part where it talks about antigens killing infected cells?

--oh, actually, re-reading what you posted above it looks like the evidence of killer-vaccines seems to be research into weakening immune systems. I think it's pretty well-known that the immune response can be dangerous, sometimes. Every anti-inflammatory, every antihistamine, etc. is getting in the way of your immune system. In fact, the bit I mentioned above (from memo 1) talks about how sometimes the antigen killing the infected cell can maybe be a good thing, suggesting that in other cases it may be a bad thing. And so it'd be pretty obvious to want to be able to control it.

I don't see any mention of the WHO in NSPD-51 (and even that link above was fear-mongering about that being used to cancel the 2008 election. And now they're using it to fear-monger about dissolving the US government to cede it to the WHO? Come on).

I'm going to call crackpot.

Edit: Corrected a couple typos. There are probably more. Tired.

Yall are really something else. The amount of trust you place in people you don't know is really quite amazing.

THIS HAS HAPPENED BEFORE. Or were these historical events "conspiracies" as well:

Baxter Pharmaceutical Mixed Deadly Avian Flu H5N1 with a Flu Vaccine about to be shipped to 180,000 people!
http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2009/02/27/8560781.html
"The contaminated product, a mix of H3N2 seasonal flu viruses and unlabelled H5N1 viruses, was supplied to an Austrian research company. The Austrian firm, Avir Green Hills Biotechnology, then sent portions of it to sub-contractors in the Czech Republic, Slovenia and Germany.

The contamination incident, which is being investigated by the four European countries, came to light when the subcontractor in the Czech Republic inoculated ferrets with the product and they died. Ferrets shouldn’t die from exposure to human H3N2 flu viruses. "

Bayer knowingly sold HIV-contaminated vaccines!
http://www.naturalnews.com/News_000647_Bayer_vaccines_HIV.html
"In 2006, it was discovered that Bayer found out a vaccine it was selling in the United States was accidentally contaminated with HIV.

In order to cover its tracks, say the journalists in this video (below), Bayer pulled the vaccines off the market and sold them to consumers in Japan, France, Spain and other countries, where hemophiliacs were then contaminated with HIV due to the vaccine."

Mandatory Polio vaccines contaminated with SV40, causes Cancer!
http://www.healthy.net/scr/Article.asp?Id=2703
"The sudden rise in the number of deaths from non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma may be linked to the polio vaccine given to children in the USA until 1963.

Researchers have found the polyomavirus known as simian virus 40 (SV40) in a large number of lymphoma sufferers - the same virus that was in the contaminated batch of polio vaccines.

The vaccine was prepared in rhesus monkey kidney cells, but some of the animals were infected with the SV40, which was then passed on to the vaccinated children. In all, millions of children from all 50 states were exposed to the virus from 1955 until 1963, when the vaccine was finally withdrawn.

Latent viruses were such a problem with primary monkey kidney cells that a worldwide moratorium on the licensing of all polio virus vaccines was called in 1967 because of death and illnesses that occurred in monkey kidney workers and vaccine manufacturing facilities"

Doc_M,

You wanna do the world a favor? Buy some off-the-shelf vaccines and do a complete chemical and biological analysis on them, and report your findings publicly. Unless you are giving us a technical lecture, or presenting experimental data, your opinion is really not worth any more than any of us non-virologists.

imstellar: Picked one of your links at random. Went to the naturalnews site. There is no evidence offered except for a youtube video (I admittedly didn't watch it because I don't have flash available right now). Additionally, on the exact same day, the exact same guy posted another article saying that HIV doesn't cause AIDS. http://www.naturalnews.com/News_000646_AIDS_HIV_medical_myths.html

For the healthy.net article: Again, no references given. But a quick Googling yielded a refutation of there being any conclusive connection, with, gasp, peer-reviewed research cited. http://www.cancer.gov/newscenter/pressreleases/SV40

It looks like the Baxter one is true. It doesn't look like the virus was actually found in anything that was actually going to be administered to a human, though. Negligence, not malfeasance.

http://www.vaccine-a.com/excerpt.html

Look into it further and you will find that all three are 100% historical facts. Look still further and you will find many more cases. Your attack on the natural news guy is ad hominem and irrelevant. I could have used a million different sources:

http://www.sv40foundation.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polio_vaccine

http://www.hhs.gov/asl/testify/t031113.html

The .GOV link (since I'm sure you trust the government :-P) confirms that SV40 was indeed found in polio vaccines:

"A significant number of early vaccine lots were contaminated with the previously unknown viral agent, SV40. In 1960, Drs. Sweet and Hilleman identified SV40 in monkey kidney cells and seed stocks used to produce the poliovirus. In 1961, Drs. Gerber, Hottle, and Grubbs discovered that the treatment used to inactivate SV40 was not completely effective.

In response to these problems, scientists, including those at the Public Health Service's (PHS) Division of Biological Standards (DBS), developed a tissue culture procedure to detect SV40. Once this procedure was developed, DBS notified manufacturers that " . . . no lots of poliomyelitis vaccine will be released in the absence of negative results of a valid tissue culture test for SV40." This requirement was later codified in regulations. Nevertheless, before SV40 was recognized as a problem and appropriate tests were developed, millions of people were vaccinated with poliovirus vaccines that contained SV40. Since this unfortunate event four decades ago, FDA has required that manufactures perform routine testing for oral poliovirus vaccines to demonstrate the absence of SV40."

-William Egan, Ph.D., Acting Director
Office of Vaccine Research and Review, Center for Biologics Evaluation and Research, Food and Drug Administration
on
Hearing: SV40 in Polio Vaccine
before the
Subcommittee on Wellness and Human Rights, Committee on Government Reform, US House of Representatives


The fact that we are debating irrefutable historical events shows just how far from reality this discussion is.

What you should have learned today is:

1. Vaccines have historically been contaminated (Polio)
2. Vaccine manufacturers have knowingly shipped contaminated products (Bayer)
3. Modern technology/procedures have not prevented contamination (Baxter)
4. Even "wacky" sites with "wacky" conspiracies can present honest information (Natural News on Polio)

THUS:

Everything about this story is absolutely plausible. To dismiss it outright as "retarded" or "loony" is to reveal yourself as historically ignorant.

^imstellar:

in re the Natural Health guy: I knew you'd play the ad hominem card, but you were the one that picked an untrustworthy source to give, and he doesn't cite anyone except Youtube.

in re Polio: You're right. There was contamination. I got sidetracked by people claiming that the virus was causing cancer, though, because HPV is (AFAIK) the only virus proven to be linked to any form of cancer.

And yes, I did see sv40foundation.org. But it was obviously created with an axe to grind: I don't trust morgellons.org, either.

Yes, I know you don't trust the government. But the government cited, as I mentioned, actual research.

^EndAll:

Long article. Do you want to explain what in it is relevant so I can argue about it?

Edit:

I also want to point out, since imstellar made a point of it, that I'm not arguing about whether these things happened. I was just pointing out lack of evidence in the 'evidence' cited. You can't get all uppity about "Don't be so naive!" and then cite crazy people on the Internet as your proof of conspiracy theories.

And furthermore the crazy part of the original story is not "omg someone screwed up and the vaccine is contaminated!" It's: "The WHO secretly controls the world is and is going to dissolve all of the world governments by purposefully infecting everyone with murderous (not contaminated) vaccines. (And also all of the governments consented to this four years ago by putting through seeeeecret directives)."

Edit: Though even a contamination aspect should be suspect specifically because of the extra precautions taken due to the Polio problem. And people have a history of freaking out over vaccines (MMR-autism people, yearly-flu conspiracy people (even Bill Maher is one of these, which surprised me), and all-disease-comes-from-diet people), so I think skepticism of ridiculous claims is warranted.

^The Bayer incident was international news. I would have never heard about it if it wasn't for having a friend who is a hemophiliac. I would have quoted a more "reliable source" but reliable sources are hard to come by for stories which involve negative PR of billion dollar companies...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contaminated_haemophilia_blood_products

http://ww2.aegis.com/news/sc/2003/SC030603.html

http://www.nytimes.com/1996/06/11/business/blood-money-aids-hemophiliacs-are-split-liability-cases-bogged-down-disputes.html?sec=health&&n=Top%2fNews%
2fHealth%2fDiseases%2c%20Conditions%2c%20and%20Health%20Topics%2fAIDS

"Contaminated haemophilia blood products were a serious public heath problem in the late 1970s and early 1980s. These products caused large numbers of hemophiliacs to became infected with HIV and hepatitis C. Companies involved included Armour Pharmaceutical Company, Bayer Corporation and its Cutter Biological division, Baxter International and its Hyland Pharmaceutical division and Alpha Therapeutic Corporation.[1] Estimates range from 6,000 to 10,000 hemophiliacs in the United States becoming infected with HIV.[1][2]"

Hey look Baxter again. So thats twice in the last 20 years that they shipped or tried to ship contaminated products. And thats just what they were caught or what I've heard about. Conspiracy, carelessness, coincidence, or conniving? What would you guess?

Yeah but thats how "science" works. Most of what the lady says is probably pretty solid, and based on evidence...but science doesn't just stop with observations and data - the whole point of science is the hypothesis - a "guess" based on observations and data. Maybe her hypothesis is wrong, but its our job to disprove it - and you don't do that by calling it "retarded."

I'll summarize the facts, and you can draw your own conclusions (hypothesis):

1. WHO gives funds, support and cover to labs such as the CDC to bio-prospect for pathogens, bio-engineer them to make them more deadly, and also patent them.

2. WHO has been actively searching for ways to weaken the immune system.

3. WHO gives deadly bio-engineered pathogens to companies such as Baxter in Austria, so that Baxter could use those viruses to deliberately, systematically contaminate vaccine material.

4.If the contamination of the 72 kilos had not been detection on time by a lab technician in the Czech Republic, millions of people would have caught the “bird flu” from the injections.

5. WHO orders a compulsory vaccines for all 194 countries, following “recommendations” by an advisory vaccine group on which executives of Baxter also sit.

6. WHO awards Baxter, Novartis, Sanofi and other companies lucrative contracts to supply those vaccines.

7. Under special pandemic plans enacted around the world… including the USA in 2005, national governments are to be dissolved in the event of a pandemic emergency Governments will be replaced by special committees answerable to the WHO and EU in Europe and to the WHO and UN in North America.

8. The Model Emergency Health Powers Act makes it a criminal offense for Americans to refuse the vaccine.

So far, nobody has refuted ANY of these claims. Maybe the "total picture" is incorrect, but all the pieces certainly seem to be correct. Whether the WHO is trying to dominate the world or not, looking at that list, pretty much all of them look pretty fucked up to me.

>> ^direpickle:
And furthermore the crazy part of the original story is not "omg someone screwed up and the vaccine is contaminated!" It's: "The WHO secretly controls the world is and is going to dissolve all of the world governments by purposefully infecting everyone with murderous (not contaminated) vaccines. (And also all of the governments consented to this four years ago by putting through seeeeecret directives)."

^Thanks for the links. After reading the Wikipedia article, I think I had heard about those contamination problems, in the context of "that was before we understood much about HIV." Still, I'm going to still lean on the side of carelessness or incompetence rather than anything intentional on Bayer/Baxter's behalf, especially since the latest one that you mentioned above was in a sample that would pretty obviously be caught long before it made it was administered to a human (as it was). If you want to kill people you have to do it after testing.

>> ^direpickle:
^Still, I'm going to still lean on the side of carelessness or incompetence rather than anything intentional on Bayer/Baxter's behalf.

Once they discovered the contamination in the US, and could no longer sell them here, they sold them internationally. I don't doubt the initial contamination was an accident, its the fact that they still sold it AFTER it was found.

"An examination of internal Bayer company documents by The New York Times reveals that the company was engaged in unsavory, probably criminal marketing practices. The documents reveal that Bayer continued to sell contaminated blood plasma causing thousands of hemophiliac patients to be infected with AIDS. The company continued to sell the contaminated blood in Asia for over a year when it had already introduced a safer, heated blood plasma version in the US and Europe in February 1984. "

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1151015

"A class action lawsuit has been launched against the Bayer and Baxter corporations on behalf of people with haemophilia in Asia and Latin America who contracted HIV or hepatitis through contaminated blood products supplied by the companies."

Also named in the lawsuit were the Armour Pharmaceutical Company and Alpha Therapeutic Corporation. The suit was filed in a US federal court in California.

All four companies are accused of distributing contaminated blood products in Asia and Latin America in 1984-5, even after such products were taken off the US market because of fears that they had not been properly screened for HIV and hepatitis C virus.

The class action contends that thousands of people with haemophilia contracted HIV or hepatitis C from tainted blood products. By 1992 the contaminated products had infected at least 5000 haemophiliac people in Europe with HIV, and more than 2000 people had developed AIDS. A total of 1250 people had died from the disease, the lawsuit added.

The lawsuit also found that by the mid-1990s most of the 4000 people in Japan with AIDS were haemophiliac people and that nearly all of the cases were linked to contaminated clotting factors traced to the United States.

In Latin America at least 700 cases of HIV are linked to use of contaminated blood products by haemophiliac people, the lawsuit said. In the mid-1990s the four companies paid out $640m (£390m; €545m) in damages to settle a similar lawsuit."

^That's the free market for you. You can thank our strong government for keeping them from continuing to sell it in the US (Edit: Before you fly off your libertarian handle, this is half-sarcasm).

I'm done, after this, but in reference to ^ ^ ^:

There is no evidence for 1 or 3 (in re: bio-engineered). I'm not sure about 4--you make it sound as if it was a race between staff experimenting on the ferrets before the drug got to market when really the ferret-testing was probably part of a screening test. I don't know their practices, though, so that's just conjecture.

As for 7, that is absolutely not what NSPD-51 says.

And most of the other points are manipulations of the facts.

^Its to the free market, what mass-murder is to a sunday afternoon BBQ.

I'm curious. Is there so much media attention on the H1N1 flu in the U.S. because so many hospital corporations stand to make millions billing insurance companies or because of real danger to people?

If this article is accurate 133 people per million in the U.S. become ill from disease, 16 people per million go to the hospital for treatment and 1 per million actually die.

If the numbers in this wikipedia article are correct, than I am TEN THOUSAND times MORE likely to die of complications related to obesity than from H1N1, if I move to the States.

So why are people so afraid of the flu?

/2¢

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_c6HsiixFS8

The rainbow conspiracy!

http://www.newswithviews.com/BreakingNews/breaking37.htm

vaccine makers granted legal immunity

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hjdCHrP82YTFser5vD6CzTK1az6wD99GH8580