>> ^A10anis:
I watched every religious debate Hitch had. And I waited, in anticipation, for someone to provide an argument which he could not refute. It never happened. Using logic, free thought, intellect, rationale and common sense - not to mention his acerbic wit - he demolished all the religious apologists who were unwise enough to take him on.


You must have missed this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KBx4vvlbZ8

I watched every religious debate Hitch had. And I waited, in anticipation, for someone to provide an argument which he could not refute. It never happened. Using logic, free thought, intellect, rationale and common sense - not to mention his acerbic wit - he demolished all the religious apologists who were unwise enough to take him on.

geo321; What a great, great, post. It is a true tribute to Hitch, and i thank you for it.

Hitch was never, despite what his detractors claim, bested in ANY debate. How could he be, coming to each with logic, free thought, rationale, common sense and intellect? It is left to the three remaining horsemen of the apocalypse - Dennett, Dawkins and Harris- to continue Hitchs' legacy. I'm sure they are up to it but, alas, we may never see another Christopher Hitchens. I, for one, will NEVER forget him.

>> ^Ryjkyj:

TMZ or not, this is pretty awesome. Good on her.


Definitely, I really love this idea as well. The best part about this is the context and the information. The children do not know who she is, have no idea she's just a nice lady that came to read to them and it's fun. The adults know who she is so it's to them completely inappropriate, they fail to put themselves into their children's better, more free thought process.

We should see people as they are in context rather than pinning on them our judgments or prejudices. I may not like the way some conservatives think or express their views but they're a part of my family and they are good people.

Be Excellent to Each Other.

Better read again, because the articles do discuss equivalent jobs. But – because I anticipate (and compensate) for your laziness in advance…

http://blog.american.com/2011/07/the-value-of-public-sector-job-security/
http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2011/07/19/group-says-ill-state-workers-paid-more-than-private-sector-peers/
http://www.dispatch.com/content/downloads/2011/09/BRT-Public-Sector-Comp-Study.pdf
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-03-01-1Apublicworkers01_ST_N.htm
http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2011-10-05/news/fl-jscol-pensions-salaries-public-smith-1005-20111005_1_private-sector-government-workers-salaries
http://www.cato.org/pubs/journal/cj30n1/cj30n1-5.pdf

I implore that just once you attempt to penetrate the callus of propaganda that buries your free-thought. Public workers are not underpaid. They are – in fact – paid notably more than private sector equivalents.

The thing that really amazes me about your fight to screw people out of their promised wages

So the public should have to pay for the bad deals made in bad faith by unelected union scalps collaborating with politicians behind closed doors to arrange unrealistic benefits packages in exchange for power, labor dues, and votes? Nope. Not buying it. The public had no say in these deals, and therefore the public has no obligation to pick up the tab when those lousy deals made by crooks go belly up. Public workers should get mad at thier union mafiosos and the lefties that connive with them - not the private-sector citizens who had nothing to do with it.

77 Billion dollars?

That’s just for federal employees. It deals in no way with the many other areas where the Federal government vastly overspends – defense included.

77 Billion dollars is what you're saying is going to bring this country to it's knees? That's your "silver plated budget?" What a crock

The 77 billion is just one example out of literally thousands of areas where government overspending is indeed bringing the country to its knees. But – I never said that alone was the reason for the federal government’s budget failures. On the federal level the blame lies almost entirely on entitlement spending – of which federal employees are a significant portion but certainly not all. Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid are the primary offenders there. However, you are ignoring the Illinois example. Illinois’ budget woes are almost entirely due to paying its employee burden of wages, benefits, retirement, and health care. They offer gold plated packages, but don’t have two pennies to rub together.

As an American, you should be ashamed of yourself

Back atcha, Clyde. A real American wouldn't have anything to do with the commie BS crap you are cheerleading. The fault of everything you’re whining about lies at the feet of the liberals who ran these unions and governments into the ground. And you have the temerity, audacity, and gall to complain about grown-ups and other good folks that have to come in and clean up the filthy mess made by your philosophies? Leftists deserve to be pilloried, tarred and feathered, and then run out of the country on a rail for their bullcrap policies because it is leftists that have ruined these people’s lives. It is leftists who end up crushing the ‘little people’ all in the name of big government socialist policies. Leftists do more to squash human dignity and push more people into poverty, ruin, and oppression than any other philosophy in history. For leftists to gripe about conservatives who have to fix stupid liberal screw-ups in order to save the system from collapse is pretty rich. What's your solution? Oh yeah - tax and spend. The same level of stupid that got us here in the first place. The solution is conservatism which means cutting back - and yes that means on stupid contracts made with evil unions that put unrealistic burdens on the private sector.

@Sagemind

Being a slave to another person is a wretched life.
Being a slave to a concept is unfathomable.
Religion is a concept of man.
Religion is a concept designed to subjugate and control a population.

Religion is a man made system that has been used for good and evil. We know God through faith alone.

There was a time when education was unheard of and only a relative few were exposed to it. Rulers kept everyone else dumb so they could be controlled. Religion was and always will be designed as a tool to control. In the beginning there were many sects and religions. As the religions caught hold, they slowly choked out as many other religions as they could to exercise their brand of control. Christianity happened to be one of the few that was more ruthless at destroying the others. (Many are documented in the bible - Genocide in the name of religion included.) The smaller religions only needed to be discredited and be called cults - as they continue to do today.

The early church was heavily persecuted by many different dictators. Believers were frequently martyred because they reufsed to worship other Gods. The expansion of the early church under these circumstances is one of the positive evidences for Gods existence as it is unlikely it could have happened in that climate of persecution. There was nothing to gain from being a Christian in those days except being an outcast.

Genocide is committed in the name of many things, and today the masses are no less controlled by secular Governments than they have been under religious ones. Bad behavior is not an exclusive to religion, it is the nature of man himself, who could corrupt anything beneficial. That people have acted badly in the name of Christianity isn't proof of anything except mans inherent corruption.

Now, many, many lifetimes later, man has become educated and has thrown the shackles of religion (a form of slavery) and science has emerged as we seek for fact instead of fiction. There are many who are still bound to religion and can't function without the masters hand to lead them. They have lost, it seems, the ability to reason, with cognitive thinking, on their own.

Many need the presence of a deity to explain the un-explainable. It's a neat fully-packaged explanation that never needs unwrapping. It is easy. It's man's nature to pick the easy route. To many it just makes more sense. To others, those more cerebral, they want to see what is underneath. They refuse to accept what is fed to them and dig a little deeper. What they find is a world of control and dominance but also a world of wonder where education can lead one on many journeys.

The question of whether the Universe is random or deliberately created is not only credible, but utterly necessary and fundemental to understanding who man is and how he relates to the Universe. Perhaps you should try Contrary to popular belief, intelligent design is a scientific theory which seeks to explain the Universe just as evolution does. The question of God is central to philosophy and our most noted philosophers have debated this question of Gods existence throughout recorded history. The complexity of life is inadequately explained by materialistic processes, and many of these theories, such as evolution, are metaphysical to begin with.

There is a percentage of the population that operates on the right side of the brain where zeros and one are absolutes and in-fact they are. They work on a puzzle where the pieces are scattered everywhere in a dark room. The pieces don't always fit perfectly so someone else pulls them apart and the big picture is corrected. Every once in a while a strobe light goes on and larger mistake is noticed and we go back to restructuring out truths.

Religion want's to turn out the lights forever, kick everyone out of the room and continue to control those free thinkers. Individuals with original thoughts scares religion. The control will crumble and individuality will rein. Their fear is that without the control, chaos will ensue. What they don't see is that to stifle education is to bring about that which they fear most.

The most basic and fundemental questions of life have not been advanced one iota. There is a higher truth operating here: Man advances theories of life which convenience his own personal hypocripsy and enable him to do evil without consequence. This is a basic truth:

John 3:20

This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

1 Corinthians 2:14

“The natural (unredeemed) man receiveth not the things of the (holy) Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned”.

1 Corinthians 3:19

For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

I still am not sure which they fear most. Is it the chaos itself, because look around, it exists with or without religion and often because of religion. Or is it the fear of loosing out on the promise of a Utopian forever. A mythical heaven where every single person has a different definition of. A place of fantasy.

Religion works on some of you. You remain a cow in this life so that you can experience a better life later. Well, heads up people, This is the life and you've been duped. Religion has brain washed you to do it's bidding. You fight the good fight for what you've been told is true by a hierarchy of rulers who seek the top roles in dominance. This isn't just true in Christianity, it goes for all religions. You are the pawns, the people on the front lines, leading the way, taking the brunt of accusation while the leaders at the top live the good live. You send your money (tithes) to them while you scrape to live a decent life.

I neither came to Christianity out of fear, or because I desired another life over this one. Nor was I indoctrinated or persuaded. Rather I was instructed in the spirit, and received personal revelation of the truth. I came to it independently and my convinctions rest solely on that. Your belief about an interdepedence due to a weakness of mind or character is wholly invalid.

I for one will not erase myself to the "Greater Good" of a hierarchy that cares more about it's well being/proliferation than it cares for the individual thought of a free thinking individual. It is my nature to put my thoughts and opinions before those of a mindless juggernaut that is religion. I will not allow my free thought to be controlled, twisted or stifled by anyone or anything.

Anyone with self respect should feel the same. Giving up on reality and calling it faith is really just saying, "Wow, that's just to much to take in and comprehend, I'm just going to shut down now. I will never have to concern myself with trying to keep all the balls in the air anymore. I will let a God sit in the driver's seat and ride out the rest of my life as a passenger." On top of that you spend all your days yelling out the window that you've got it so easy, you don't have to drive, you'll get to enjoy things when you get to your destination. What you fail to see is the person in the driver's seat doesn't have a license to drive, or a body or anything, they are plain fiction and the end of the road is a brick wall. When will you look up and see that you should have taken the wheel and honored the privilege of the ride before it was too late.

This imagined heirarchy of yours is a convenient strawman for your arguments about personal freedom, but it doesn't bear out. There is no conspiracy here. The body of Christ is so fractured at this time that a belief there is a heirarchy of control is simply ludicrous. Belief in God is about personal conviction and personal responsibility. Convinction because we are all sinners who have transgressed Gods laws. Responsibility because God is the moral authority who judicates our lives. You seem to think you're free, but anyone who sins is a slave to sin. You seem to think you're without a god, but you have something you worship. Whether its something in the world, or in the case of many secular humanists, yourself, there is something out there that you bow down and kiss every day of your life. Your freedom is just another box that you feel comfortable in. There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

1 Corinthians 13:11-13

When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Being a slave to another person is a wretched life.
Being a slave to a concept is unfathomable.
Religion is a concept of man.
Religion is a concept designed to subjugate and control a population.

There was a time when education was unheard of and only a relative few were exposed to it. Rulers kept everyone else dumb so they could be controlled. Religion was and always will be designed as a tool to control. In the beginning there were many sects and religions. As the religions caught hold, they slowly choked out as many other religions as they could to exercise their brand of control. Christianity happened to be one of the few that was more ruthless at destroying the others. (Many are documented in the bible - Genocide in the name of religion included.) The smaller religions only needed to be discredited and be called cults - as they continue to do today.

Now, many, many lifetimes later, man has become educated and has thrown the shackles of religion (a form of slavery) and science has emerged as we seek for fact instead of fiction. There are many who are still bound to religion and can't function without the masters hand to lead them. They have lost, it seems, the ability to reason, with cognitive thinking, on their own.

Many need the presence of a deity to explain the un-explainable. It's a neat fully-packaged explanation that never needs unwrapping. It is easy. It's man's nature to pick the easy route. To many it just makes more sense. To others, those more cerebral, they want to see what is underneath. They refuse to accept what is fed to them and dig a little deeper. What they find is a world of control and dominance but also a world of wonder where education can lead one on many journeys.

There is a percentage of the population that operates on the right side of the brain where zeros and one are absolutes and in-fact they are. They work on a puzzle where the pieces are scattered everywhere in a dark room. The pieces don't always fit perfectly so someone else pulls them apart and the big picture is corrected. Every once in a while a strobe light goes on and larger mistake is noticed and we go back to restructuring out truths.

Religion want's to turn out the lights forever, kick everyone out of the room and continue to control those free thinkers. Individuals with original thoughts scares religion. The control will crumble and individuality will rein. Their fear is that without the control, chaos will ensue. What they don't see is that to stifle education is to bring about that which they fear most.

I still am not sure which they fear most. Is it the chaos itself, because look around, it exists with or without religion and often because of religion. Or is it the fear of loosing out on the promise of a Utopian forever. A mythical heaven where every single person has a different definition of. A place of fantasy.

Religion works on some of you. You remain a cow in this life so that you can experience a better life later. Well, heads up people, This is the life and you've been duped. Religion has brain washed you to do it's bidding. You fight the good fight for what you've been told is true by a hierarchy of rulers who seek the top roles in dominance. This isn't just true in Christianity, it goes for all religions. You are the pawns, the people on the front lines, leading the way, taking the brunt of accusation while the leaders at the top live the good live. You send your money (tithes) to them while you scrape to live a decent life.

I for one will not erase myself to the "Greater Good" of a hierarchy that cares more about it's well being/proliferation than it cares for the individual thought of a free thinking individual. It is my nature to put my thoughts and opinions before those of a mindless juggernaut that is religion. I will not allow my free thought to be controlled, twisted or stifled by anyone or anything.

Anyone with self respect should feel the same. Giving up on reality and calling it faith is really just saying, "Wow, that's just to much to take in and comprehend, I'm just going to shut down now. I will never have to concern myself with trying to keep all the balls in the air anymore. I will let a God sit in the driver's seat and ride out the rest of my life as a passenger." On top of that you spend all your days yelling out the window that you've got it so easy, you don't have to drive, you'll get to enjoy things when you get to your destination. What you fail to see is the person in the driver's seat doesn't have a license to drive, or a body or anything, they are plain fiction and the end of the road is a brick wall. When will you look up and see that you should have taken the wheel and honored the privilege of the ride before it was too late.

So it's been two years. I hope everyone is doing well. A little older, a little wiser? Better, faster, stronger, smarter?

It looks like @NetRunner and @dystopianfuturetoday are still up to their old haunts. Learn anything in the last two years? History impart any lessons? A lot has happened since then. War, recession, inflation, destruction, pollution, the devaluing of the dollar.

Maybe meet up in another two years to see if anything more has changed? That is, if it is even possible. By then, we may have already lost net neutrality and the world wide web will a corporatized splash screen. "Choose your website from the following options." Worse yet, this site could be bought out by DynCorp and transformed into another corporate puppet ala Digg.com.

That is, if any of us even have jobs or savings to pay the internet bill. What with the massive inflation from the multi-trillion dollar "bailouts," handouts, QE3, QE4, QE5 etc. Ever pay attention to your supermarket bill over the years? What will the dollar be worth in two years if it has already decreased in value by upwards of 50% in the last few years? How about employment after the looming double-dip, recession, or second great depression. How many of the posters here will even have jobs anymore?

One thing is for certain, there is nothing special about American labor. China is in the lead in education, America is barely in the top 20. The average salary in America is somewhere in the $40,000 range. In China, less than $7000. I hope you've enjoyed the run while it lasted. Be prepared to swallow your pride along with your massive pay-cut as you realize the only thing sustaining this country is reckless consumerism. What do they tell you every Black Friday? Spend, Spend, Spend? Buy what you can't afford so you can be paid what you don't deserve. Nothing exists in nature "above unity," not even the American dream.

Forget the economy, what will our government be like in 2 years? Already, we sell little boys to afghan leaders and our presidential candidates threaten journalists with murder. Perhaps worse is all of our presidential candidates are identical. "Do you want the red or blue pill? They both taste the same." We torture our own citizens with solitary confinement for 6 months without trail. We've killed over 1 million civilians in Iraq, 15% of the way to our own holocaust. Corporations lay waste to our environment with no consequence. When they commit fraud, we give them billion dollar bonuses instead of criminal charges.

The internet is the primary source of dissent and "free thought" in the modern era. Two things diametrically opposed to corporate and governmental dictatorship. You forget because your mind doesn't think on large time scales, but the internet is just a baby. How long has it really been around, 20 years? That's not even old enough to drink alcohol. You've already seen what governments can do to the internet in China. You've already seen what corporations can do to the internet in Canada. How long before that becomes the norm and not the exception? You take it for granted what you have, then they turn your head while they steal it piece-by-piece. How often did you turn your head, when it wasn't yours they took?

"They came first for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up."

Yeah, things have been going quite well "as is." Keep you finger's crossed for the next new political "savior" and I'll see you in another 2 years...maybe.

We are reactive beings, languishing in self-centered accumulation. Blinded by envy, preyed upon by a societal structure that is profit, rather than welfare, driven.

The two primary locations that humans learn a desire to work to benefit others are home and church. The founding fathers knew this, which is why the Constitution is a moral document that humbly acknowledges that rights come from divinity and provided protections to stop men from infringing those rights. Hippies have/had little or no respect for church & family, and the intellectually pithless modern progressives mirror that disdain. Not very likely that hippies or progressives will create this 'welfare driven' society when they actively seek to subvert/destroy the two things most likely to teach people a desire to serve others.

"hippies" - (objective and free thought, care and consideration of others)

Bull feathers. I lived in the 60s and 70s and the hippie movement was nothing about free thought, care, or consideration. They used the labels you use, but when rubber meets road the hippies were all about selfishness, laziness, and the abrogation of personal responsibility for ones actions.

In particular - hippies were incredibly intolerant of anything that didn't goose-step to their point of view. You see this reflected in their miserable progressive scions today. Anything that challenges their perspective is met with hostlity, anger, resentment, and violence. So much for 'objective free thought, care, and consideration of others'. Such boons are only granted to those that bow and scrape before properly approved leftist dogma - like good little zombies. For example...

(note the above entry: "Global warmer, its natural, not man made". You sir, are excused from your idiocy, you are entitled to it, but your idiocy comes at an expense... And that expense, on a global scale, is our downfall...)

Always nice to see objective free thought in action, combined with care and consideration for others, isn't it?

Yes, we are at a crisis point.
We are reactive beings, languishing in self-centered accumulation. Blinded by envy, preyed upon by a societal structure that is profit, rather than welfare, driven.
"hippies" - is a term bastardized by those who disagreed with underlying tenets (objective and free thought, care and consideration of others) of the movement, applying that term equally to reactive thought (and/or angsty, hormonal teenagers). Free thought based on observation has always been validated. And in this case, it has, and...we're basically fucked.

Humanity and it's self-centered approach is probably just a blip on the evolutionary timeline, of which we are still in an infantile stage. Consider, of course, that a mere 200 years ago, the main concern for most people was feeding themselves whilst avoiding an untimely extremely-violent end. Shit, most of the world remains incredibly superstitious,... competing invisible men in the sky. Most people are simply sheep, conditioned from birth to repeat behavioral patterns...

Genetically we are still only 1% removed from chimps, and yet we act like arrogant, know--t-all fucktards (note the above entry: "Global warmer, its natural, not man made". You sir, are excused from your idiocy, you are entitled to it, but your idiocy comes at an expense... And that expense, on a global scale, is our downfall...

>> ^Mauru:

I like Max Blumenthal and his work but I can't help being under the impression that he intentionally fishes out the nutcases in order to make his reports more interesting. Can anybody recommend any good, "longer" documentaries with more footage?
Then again, maybe I am just a tad too naive about the level of brain-activity in the conservative movement.




You assume they even have brains, let alone use them for free thought.

>> ^Chaucer:
Neither one of them answered the damned question. They did a nice job skirting around it.


They tried, but the premise of the question is deeply flawed, she gives a flawed, cherrypicked and highly airbrushed version of the ten commandments and asks "whats so wrong about that?". Its like saying "Hitler was a vegetarian, so whats so wrong about him then?" Where could you start against such an idiotic question?

The fact is that these commandments were all given under threat of capital punishment, for things like "having other gods before me", swearing and being disobedient as children. And as Fry rightly points out, they seem to forget a whole lot, including slavery etc. In addition they do nothing in terms of providing rights for people, in fact they strip anyone who follows them of any rights at all, including free speech and free thought, and freedom of religion.

Liberty is something you beg for from your merciful government.

"Please sir, can I have some more?"
"Nooo!" says the state as it whips its thralls in their gray little lives.

You don't have it, you won't get it - freedom is an illusion: you have the choice between American Gladiators and Fox News, that's your freedom. Rebellion is quelled, free thought is stifled. Lives snuffed out in the interest of order. You are a slave to the system you are in, just as your parents were and as your children will be. High ideals are only talked about, never executed. They call them libertarianism, socialism, capitalism in the end it's always a big gray mass that ends up doing nothing but maintaining the status quo. The system rules, and the system wants to keep its power. We choose to be slaves to this, we are only slaves of our own will. Humans or ants, does not make much of a difference, just scale.

And it will never change.

>> ^BillOreilly:
Well, under this Obama-Nation, free thought will be outlawed anyway, so this is all a moot issue.
Downvote.


Oh I don't know, you're still allowed to prattle on with your own perculiar brand of idiocy, I think free thought is pretty healthy atm.

^ Yes, BillOreilly, because wanting to ban Fahrenheit 451 is "free thought".

Anyone know how to coordinate google-bombs? (I think that's what they're called). Everytime someone types in the words Irony, Ignorant, or Devolution and hits "I'm Feeling Lucky" they should be directed to this video.

Anne Coulter looks like a horse and any man who would touch her is a zoophile.