In scenerio one, it's important to remember that Gods standard is perfection. What we consider good is not what God considers good. In fact, the only human to ever live up to that standard was Jesus. This is what the bible says:

John 3:18

"He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

It is because Christ is the only provision we have to escape the judgement. Without Christ, we have no provision and must pay the penalty for our sins.

As for the other matter, this is what the bible says about it:

Romans 2:6-16

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.

12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ.

We are not responsible for knowledge we have never been given. But everyone who hears the truth and rejects it is guilty already.



>> ^Drax:
This question is half curiosity...
Going by what you just wrote, and that God is just.. I'm curious what your take on this is -
What if someone lives a generally good life, is a good person, helps others, etc.. basicaly never hurts anyone, but also never chooses to believe in God?
With that question in mind, what happens to someone who is mean to others, etc.. but never once is exposed to christianity, never learns of it (think, an isolated colony on an island)?
How do you think God handles either of those scenarios?

can ye not spare my only *begotten power point.. i raised it with love

>> ^BansheeX:
>> ^jwray:
Free markets can coexist with progressive income tax and government services. Libertarians tend to conflate economic liberty with flatter systems of taxation and a lack of needful public services like healthcare.

We need more socialized medicine like we need a hole in the head. The model you're suggesting is forced appropriation to create a national credit card of sorts that works until the country can no longer repay its debts in real terms (or more accurately, until its creditors realize this to be the case and stop financing the country's debt and artificially low rates). We're far past the point of having domestic credit, this is the very late stages to depend on exponential foreign credit. Our desire for life-prolonging procedures is unlimited, but our productive capacity to finance it is not. That is why prices are so high and quality so poor in government models. If it's just a national credit card whose compounding interest we finance by continuously finding more foreign investment, what's stopping a servicer from charging as much as he can and when does the foreign credit being "invested" in that increasingly expensive, non-exportable service eventually tap out?
We're like Madoff with a printing press, every time a bond matures we print another one. Since we severed gold-backing in 1971 but retained reserve status, we just export paper promises in exchange for goods, and until now foreigners have snatched them up. This is the fundamental realization that separates libertarians from stupider parts of the population: benefiting in the short-term at some greater long-term expense is not a good trade-off. Eventually it gets to a point where you get so hooked on that lifestyle that the credit junky rejects the withdrawal symptoms come time to save rather than consume. So the government just tries to inflate away the debt and you get bubble after bubble until the bond market itself is a bubble. Because if bond interest is insufficiently compensatory for the devaluation of the currency it promises to pay, why the hell would you buy them? If the effect of devaluation is only hidden by the fact that foreigners are hoarding rather than spending them, that's circular logic to suggest that dollars aren't losing value so long as you never use them to bid up the prices of products.
People wonder how countries like the UK and the USA went from rich creditors and manufacturing powerhouses to leading debtors who run deficits to consume rather than increase exportable production. All in a relatively short period of time. This is precisely how we did it, and as much shared blame you can point on needless military adventures post WWII, a borrow and spend health care model can only lead to squalor.
Recently, a relative of mine had a few procedures done on medicare (the second procedure was begotten by an infection caused during the first one). The doctors sent a bunch of excess equipment to our house and we couldn't return it. Some of it was still in its packaging, and the steel thing that holds up the intravenous bags? Wouldn't take that back either. The cost of her hospital stay and multiple invasive procedures was $150,000. Her out of pocket was only $100. It would take me a decade to earn that much after taxes, it was put on the national charge card in one week. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that this is going to end badly. People like David Walker have tried to warn people and were ignored for years. People's ignorance and sense of entitlement is too great now to elect someone who will stop the currency crisis before it happens.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OS2fI2p9iVs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oh-NqdmEDq4
You may now continue hitting your neo-con pinata.


I'm not talking about letting the government write a blank check for ridiculously overpriced private healthcare services.

Government shouldn't spend a penny on private health services or private health insurance, or interfere with them at all. It should just set up its own separate clinics that offer basic services at low cost and subsidize preventative care. This could be done for a tiny fraction of the cost of the Iraq war. Sweden spends a lower percentage of its GDP on healthcare than the USA, yet has 3 years longer life expectancy and half the infant mortality. That's socialism for you!

>> ^jwray:
Free markets can coexist with progressive income tax and government services. Libertarians tend to conflate economic liberty with flatter systems of taxation and a lack of needful public services like healthcare.


We need more socialized medicine like we need a hole in the head. The model you're suggesting is forced appropriation to create a national credit card of sorts that works until the country can no longer repay its debts in real terms (or more accurately, until its creditors realize this to be the case and stop financing the country's debt and artificially low rates). We're far past the point of having domestic credit, this is the very late stages to depend on exponential foreign credit. Our desire for life-prolonging procedures is unlimited, but our productive capacity to finance it is not. That is why prices are so high and quality so poor in government models. If it's just a national credit card whose compounding interest we finance by continuously finding more foreign investment, what's stopping a servicer from charging as much as he can and when does the foreign credit being "invested" in that increasingly expensive, non-exportable service eventually tap out?

We're like Madoff with a printing press, every time a bond matures we print another one. Since we severed gold-backing in 1971 but retained reserve status, we just export paper promises in exchange for goods, and until now foreigners have snatched them up. This is the fundamental realization that separates libertarians from stupider parts of the population: benefiting in the short-term at some greater long-term expense is not a good trade-off. Eventually it gets to a point where you get so hooked on that lifestyle that the credit junky rejects the withdrawal symptoms come time to save rather than consume. So the government just tries to inflate away the debt and you get bubble after bubble until the bond market itself is a bubble. Because if bond interest is insufficiently compensatory for the devaluation of the currency it promises to pay, why the hell would you buy them? If the effect of devaluation is only hidden by the fact that foreigners are hoarding rather than spending them, that's circular logic to suggest that dollars aren't losing value so long as you never use them to bid up the prices of products.

People wonder how countries like the UK and the USA went from rich creditors and manufacturing powerhouses to leading debtors who run deficits to consume rather than increase exportable production. All in a relatively short period of time. This is precisely how we did it, and as much shared blame you can point on needless military adventures post WWII, a borrow and spend health care model can only lead to squalor.

Recently, a relative of mine had a few procedures done on medicare (the second procedure was begotten by an infection caused during the first one). The doctors sent a bunch of excess equipment to our house and we couldn't return it. Some of it was still in its packaging, and the steel thing that holds up the intravenous bags? Wouldn't take that back either. The cost of her hospital stay and multiple invasive procedures was $150,000. Her out of pocket was only $100. It would take me a decade to earn that much after taxes, it was put on the national charge card in one week. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that this is going to end badly. People like David Walker have tried to warn people and were ignored for years. People's ignorance and sense of entitlement is too great now to elect someone who will stop the currency crisis before it happens.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OS2fI2p9iVs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oh-NqdmEDq4

You may now continue hitting your neo-con pinata.

>> ^rougy:
>> ^BansheeX:
My, aren't we young and gullible.

You just made the ignore list, fuckwad.
Say hello to Quantumushroom. I'm sure you'll find you have a lot in common.
And keep pretending that you're the only person in the world who pays taxes, or that all of your taxes are wasted on "entitlements" and foolish research.
It's really the only leg you have to stand on.


Quantumushroom is an inflammatory neo-con who parrots hypocritical fiscal criticisms and pro-interventionist nonsense. What has he criticized Democrats on that Bush didn't DO when he was in office? Other than a few social issues, nothing, yet he defends the (socialist) neo-conservative party to the last.

Question is, why do you want to force others to finance things they believe are inefficient and don't want to participate in? Public schools and retirement schemes would theoretically be very easy things have opt-outs for. It's not illegal to sell education services apart from the government, or manage your own earnings for retirement. I'd prefer not to waste my time trying to convince you how Social Security and Medicare are unsustainable ponzi schemes, you've already convinced yourself of the impossible. Yet you are adamant at forcing me to participate in them with you despite my preference (after an enormous amount of research) not to devote part of my earnings there. All YOU should be concerned about, is you and those like you who believe it will work between you. Whether I believe I can save and invest my money more efficiently than the social security system shouldn't make any difference to its proponents. And the same logic goes for this fucking sea slug. A politician could come to your door with any damn reason to want money, and you'd give it to them, we already know that. But you don't own what others have or earn, so stop trying to vote in a learned minority who has doubts.

Have you even been paying attention to the stimulus packages? These people do not fucking care about you, buy a clue. If they cared about waste, Obama would have used his veto pen umpteen times already instead of verbally admonishing earmarks and the undeserved bonuses begotten by giving billions of stolen money to idiots who drove their companies into the ground. If they cared, they wouldn't brazenly state it out loud that you don't:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEfICUoWKBw

You are showing classic signs of being indoctrinated into thinking that all Chistians believe the doctrines that you just described. You are oversimplifying, and there is more than one way to interpret scripture. The reason that we have need for a Savior is because we have been given agency and will make mistakes. This agency provides us an opportunity to learn and grow because we are free to make mistakes. (We lived with God before we were given mortal bodies, but we were like children, and God wished to see us progress. This life is a stage in our progression.) God provided a Savior so that we could return to live with him, because no unclean thing can dwell in his presence. We are not born on the path to hell. We are born innocent and perfect and are not held accountable for Adam's sin. Only our own. God does require something of us. I'm sorry if you find that offensive. I believe that the faith, repentance, good works, and morality he requires not only lead us back to him, but they make us happy in this life. If God provided proof of his existence, faith and sacrifice (which test us and make us better) would not be necessary.

Many people do not understand the doctrine of the Law of Moses. Some of the commandments given in the Old Testament (sacrifice, dietary guidelines, etc.) were part of the Law of Moses. This law was meant to prepare the people to receive Jesus, thus the sacrifices (symbolic of the sacrifice of the Savior). This was replaced by a higher law after Jesus came. The Old Testament is a record of believers who never knew Jesus Christ. Christ taught the Jews the true nature of God, demonstrating through his teaching and service that he is not vengeful and jealous, but perfectly just and kind. But, yes, he gets mad when we're disobedient. No lightning bolts or anything, though. Similarly, some people understand that the Bible is not only a sacred book but a product of its time. Some of the opinions of the prophets are just that: Opinions. They are pretty easily distinguishable from doctrine. I don't believe that the Bible is a perfect book. It has been mistranslated many times. In the first place, it was written by imperfect beings. It is a record of sacred things kept by them. It may not always be literal, but it provides understanding, inspiration, and guidance. God is consistent and unchanging, but he understands that we are not.

I believe that Christ is the Son of God, not God himself. For more on this topic, read this:
http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=f318118dd536c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=00d51b3e50cf5110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&hi
deNav=1
Jesus Christ suffered for our sins. The "Atonement" or "Passion," as some call it, did not occur solely on the cross. In the garden of Gethsemane prior to his crucifiction he endured pain of mind, body, and soul which was beyond what anyone but the son of God could have endured. This satisfied the demands of justice for a perfectly just god as well as a perfectly merciful one. Christ paid our debt, which is why we are indebted to him and why he requires our love and obedience.

This is not meant to convince you of anything. I'm just pointing out that your ideas about Christianity may be influenced by your underexposure to a number of Christian faiths which do not believe what evangelicals and Catholics believe. Your understanding of Christian doctrine is not perfect (as is the case with most people, including me), so I don't think you're qualified to say that the doctrine is absurd.

>> ^MaxWilder:
If the bible simply described Jesus coming to the world and offering advice on how to live a great life and offered some direction on what God had in mind for us, then I might consider it seriously. But as it was written, Jesus said "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." In essence, the Word is "You better believe me, otherwise you go to hell." Why would we go to hell without Jesus? Because without Jesus, we are not saved. Why do we need to be saved? Because of original sin. We are born into this world on the path to hell. Well, gee, thanks for that God.

So all we have to do is put our complete trust in the text of a book that tells the story of a jealous and vengeful God, who at some point decides he wants to be a nicer guy so he sends his only son to allow us a slim chance of escaping eternal damnation. All you have to do is believe with all your heart something that was written in a book many centuries ago. You have to follow all its rules, except for the ones you really don't agree with, you can call those archaic.

Oh and how does Jesus save us? "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." Jesus was a sacrifice. He took our sins onto himself, that we need not pay the ultimate price if we simply accept him into our hearts. ...Wait a minute, how is Jesus a sacrifice? Jesus is God, right? He came down, said some stuff, died and went back to heaven. Where is the sacrifice in that? What was the point? It only makes sense to a culture that regularly made sacrifices to gods. A sacrifice is giving up something that is valuable to you. Jesus was not really a sacrifice on anybody's behalf, because God can't die.

It's fundamental absurdities like this that make Christianity so transparently false. They might have worked on people centuries ago, who had a worldview that included baseless guilt, vengeful gods, and meaningless sacrifices. But it doesn't work today. We have the ability to see things a little more clearly, if we choose to do so.

So to sum up, if there is a higher intelligence who wanted to tell us something, it would be internally consistent, and not dependent on the culture of a specific time and place. It would be impossible to be an atheist because it would be inherently obvious to anybody who saw it, and there would not be a single person on the planet who would fail to have the opportunity to learn about it. Christianity fails on every level.

If the bible simply described Jesus coming to the world and offering advice on how to live a great life and offered some direction on what God had in mind for us, then I might consider it seriously. But as it was written, Jesus said "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." In essence, the Word is "You better believe me, otherwise you go to hell." Why would we go to hell without Jesus? Because without Jesus, we are not saved. Why do we need to be saved? Because of original sin. We are born into this world on the path to hell. Well, gee, thanks for that God.

So all we have to do is put our complete trust in the text of a book that tells the story of a jealous and vengeful God, who at some point decides he wants to be a nicer guy so he sends his only son to allow us a slim chance of escaping eternal damnation. All you have to do is believe with all your heart something that was written in a book many centuries ago. You have to follow all its rules, except for the ones you really don't agree with, you can call those archaic.

Oh and how does Jesus save us? "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." Jesus was a sacrifice. He took our sins onto himself, that we need not pay the ultimate price if we simply accept him into our hearts. ...Wait a minute, how is Jesus a sacrifice? Jesus is God, right? He came down, said some stuff, died and went back to heaven. Where is the sacrifice in that? What was the point? It only makes sense to a culture that regularly made sacrifices to gods. A sacrifice is giving up something that is valuable to you. Jesus was not really a sacrifice on anybody's behalf, because God can't die.

It's fundamental absurdities like this that make Christianity so transparently false. They might have worked on people centuries ago, who had a worldview that included baseless guilt, vengeful gods, and meaningless sacrifices. But it doesn't work today. We have the ability to see things a little more clearly, if we choose to do so.

So to sum up, if there is a higher intelligence who wanted to tell us something, it would be internally consistent, and not dependent on the culture of a specific time and place. It would be impossible to be an atheist because it would be inherently obvious to anybody who saw it, and there would not be a single person on the planet who would fail to have the opportunity to learn about it. Christianity fails on every level.

I was lurking and couldn’t resist posting a response to this deebub81. There is considerably more to Mormon theology than what is currently taught in Sacrament meeting or Sunday School every week. While the doctrinal points you cited from the video may seem salacious, they were not made up out of whole cloth. I will leave you with a few comments and choice quotes from Mormon publications. Many of these publications are available online – including the Journal of Discourses http://www.journalofdiscourses.org/– and I’d encourage you to authenticate the quotes from men Mormons consider inspired oracles of God for yourself.

A brief list of inaccuracies, requested of me on my profile (I don't mean to skip over anything or hide any doctrine. I just didn't want to write an essay. Let me know if you would like me to elaborate on anything.):

-We don't believe in any being higher than God the Father. We worship Him and His son Jesus Christ. Not countless gods.

We remember the numerous scriptures which, concentrated in a single line, were stated by a former prophet, Lorenzo Snow: 'As man is, God once was; and as God is, man may become.'" (Mormon Prophet Spencer W. Kimball in "Our Great Potential" from the April 1977 Priesthood Session of General Conference

-We don't teach about any unidentified god and his wives.

-We don't teach anything in our doctrine about where God came from or that he lives on a planet with His many wives or "endless Celestial sex."


"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!...........It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God........yea, that God himself, the father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible...." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith and History of the Church, 6:302-17)

"He [God] is our Father--the Father of our spirits, and was once a man in mortal flesh as we are, and is now an exalted being. It appears ridiculous to the world, under their darkened and erroneous traditions, that God has once been a finite being;" (Brigham Young in the Journal of Discourses, v. 7, p. 333)

-Only one God was present at the council spoken of in the video with Lucifer and Jesus. God the Father.

Don’t know about this one.

-Lucifer DID want the glory for himself but he wouldn't have forced us all to become gods. He wanted to force us all to obey.

Agreed

-It was never mormon doctrine that black people were neutral before this life. We don't believe that black people are inferior to white people.


Though he was rebel and an associate of Lucifer in pre-existence, and though he was a liar from the beginning whose name was Perdition, Cain was cursed with a dark skin; he became the father of the Negroes, and those sprits who are not worthy to receive the priesthood are born though his lineage. He became the first mortal to be cursed as a son of perdition. As a result of his mortal birth he is assured of a tangible body of flesh and bones in eternity, a fact which will enable him to rule over Satan. (Mormon Apostle Bruce R. McKonkie, Mormon Doctrine, pp102)


-"White and delightsome" is never used to describe the faithful followers of Jesus in the pre-mortal life. We believe that ALL who live or have lived on Earth, regardless of race or color or religion, were faithful to Jesus Christ's plan and chose to be here.


And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them. And thus saith the Lord God: I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their iniquities.

And cursed shall be the seed of him that mixeth with their seed; for they shall be cursed even with the same cursing. And the Lord spake it, and it was done.

And because of their cursing which was upon them they did become an idle people, full of mischief and subtlety, and did seek in the wilderness for beasts of prey. (Book of Mormon --2 NEPHI 5:21)


-Adam is not Elohim. He is a child of God, as we all are. Eve was not a godess wife.


How much unbelief exists in the minds of Latter-day Saints in regard to one particular doctrine which I revealed to them, and which God revealed to me - namely that Adam is our father and God ..Then he said, 'I want my children who are in the spirit world to come and live here. I once dwelt upon an earth something like this, in a mortal state. I was faithful. I received my crown and exaltation...I want my children that were born to me in the spirit world to come here and take tabernacles of flesh that their spirits may have a house, a tabernacle...' (Brigham Young, Deseret Weekly News, June 18, 1873, page 308; Deseret Evening News, June 14, 1873)

-We believe that when Mary gave birth to Jesus, she was still a virgin. We don't teach anything about God having physical sex with her. We don't teach anything about how the miracle was performed, only that Jesus is Begotten of the Father.


"The birth of the Savior was as natural as the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood--was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers." (Brigham Young -Journal of Discourses, Vol. 8, p. 115).

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints proclaims that Jesus Christ is the Son of God in THE MOST LITERAL SENSE. The body in which He performed His mission in the flesh was SIRED by that same Holy Being we worship as God, our Eternal Father." (Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p. 6).

-We don't teach any specific doctrine about Jesus' marital status or children. Especially not that he had "at least 3 wives."


"Celsus was a heathen philosopher; and what does he say upon the subject of Christ and his Apostles, and their belief? He says, the 'grand reason why the Gentiles and philosophers of his school persecuted Jesus Christ, was because He had so many wives; there were Elizabeth, and Mary, and a host of others that followed Him.' After Jesus went from the stage of action, the Apostles followed the example of their master. . . The grand reason of the burst of public sentiment in anathemas upon Christ and his disciples, casing his crucifixion, was evidently based on polygamy,. . .a belief in the doctrine of plurality of wives caused the persecution of Jesus, and his followers. We might almost think they were 'Mormons' " (Jedidiah Grant, Second Counselor to Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol 1. ppl 345-346)"

"It will be borne in mind that once on a time, there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; . . .no less a person than Jesus Christ was married on that occasion. If he was never married, his intimacy with Mary and Martha, and the other Mary also whom Jesus loved, must have been highly unbecoming and improper to say the least of it."

"I will venture to say that if Jesus Christ were now to pass thought the most pious countries in Christendom with a train of women, such as used to follow him, . . .he would be mobbed, tarred, and feathered, and rode, not on as ass, but on a rail."

"At this doctrine the long-faced hypocrite and the sanctimonious bigot will probably cry, blasphemy! . . . Object not, therefore, too strongly against the marriage of Christ." (All the above statements: Mormon Apostle Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, pages 259-260)

"When Mary of old came to the sepulcher. . .she saw two angels in white. and they said unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? She said unto them, Because they have take away my Lord, OR HUSBAND, and I know not where they have laid him." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 2, page 210)

". . .we apprehend that even greater troubles than these may arise before mankind learn all the particulars of Christ's incarnation-how and by whom he was begotten; the character of the relationships formed by the act; the number of wives and children he had. . ." (The Millennial Star, Vol 15, page 825)


-We believe that the Nephites and Lamanites are descended from Israelites. Not quite how it's said in the cartoon.

Agreed. Now if we could only locate some of that pre-Columbian Israelite DNA in America…..

-Joseph Smith was not a known treasure seeker. Neither was he known for any tales except his testimony about Mormonism.

Referring to Joseph as a young boy, his mother wrote "During our evening conversations, Joseph would occasionally give us some of the most amusing recitals that could be imagined. He would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent, their dress, mode of travelings, and the animals upon which they rode; their cities, their buildings, with every particular; their mode of warfare; and also their religious worship. This he would do with as much ease, seemingly, as if he had spent his whole life among them."(Lucy Mack Smith - Joseph's mother, Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith the Prophet 1854)

Joseph most certainly was a treasure seeker. Joseph met Emma while searching for treasure on the property of Josiah Stowell. In 1826, Joseph was taken to court for the crime of ‘glass looking’ which basically amounts to defrauding people into believing you can find buried treasure through a gift of second sight. There is a court document that has been recovered to prove this. Even later, after his ‘prophetic call’ when the Kirtland Safety Society illegal bank he founded was going belly up, he and a group of his inside circle headed back to Salem, Massachusetts to try to bail themselves out by finding a treasure that was supposedly located there. Although there is much to document these activities, interestingly, there is nothing to suggest he ever found anything.

-We believe that we will be judged by Jesus Christ because he was and is perfect, he suffered all, and atoned for our sins.

-I have never been taught that I will be a polygamist god.

While church leaders no longer allow the practice of polygamy here on Earth, they do allow a living man to be sealed to another woman after the death of his wife, or after divorce. This leads to the obvious situation of establishing multiple sealings on Earth that, according to Mormonism, will necessitate polygamy in heaven.

"Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p. 266).

Also, "The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11, page 269).

Section 132 of the Doctrine and Covenants- the revelation on polygamy remains canonized scripture. The practice of polygamy was suspended on earth, but will be standard practice in the Celestial Kingdom (heaven).

-Joseph Smith himself never claimed anything about doing more for us than any other man.

-We absolutely do not believe that Joseph Smith did more for us than any other man, including Jesus Christ.

“Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.” (Joseph Smith sermon, May 26, 1844)

The video was obviously designed to be as scandalous as possible, but just because something puts your religion in a bad light, do not assume it is untrue.

Preaching democracy to a long begotten corporatocracy. For the sake of the ghosts of this country's Founding Fathers does Kucinich make his speeches. Unfortunately, their sake has been forgotten.

A brief list of inaccuracies, requested of me on my profile (I don't mean to skip over anything or hide any doctrine. I just didn't want to write an essay. Let me know if you would like me to elaborate on anything.):

-We don't believe in any being higher than God the Father. We worship Him and His son Jesus Christ. Not countless gods.

-We don't teach about any unidentified god and his wives.

-We don't teach anything in our doctrine about where God came from or that he lives on a planet with His many wives or "endless Celestial sex."

-Only one God was present at the council spoken of in the video with Lucifer and Jesus. God the Father.

-Lucifer DID want the glory for himself but he wouldn't have forced us all to become gods. He wanted to force us all to obey.

-It was never mormon doctrine that black people were neutral before this life. We don't believe that black people are inferior to white people.

-"White and delightsome" is never used to describe the faithful followers of Jesus in the pre-mortal life. We believe that ALL who live or have lived on Earth, regardless of race or color or religion, were faithful to Jesus Christ's plan and chose to be here.

-Adam is not Elohim. He is a child of God, as we all are. Eve was not a godess wife.

-We believe that when Mary gave birth to Jesus, she was still a virgin. We don't teach anything about God having physical sex with her. We don't teach anything about how the miracle was performed, only that Jesus is Begotten of the Father.

-We don't teach any specific doctrine about Jesus' marital status or children. Especially not that he had "at least 3 wives."

-We believe that the Nephites and Lamanites are descended from Israelites. Not quite how it's said in the cartoon.

-Joseph Smith was not a known treasure seeker. Neither was he known for any tales except his testimony about Mormonism.

-We believe that we will be judged by Jesus Christ because he was and is perfect, he suffered all, and atoned for our sins.

-I have never been taught that I will be a polygamist god.

-Joseph Smith himself never claimed anything about doing more for us than any other man.

-We absolutely do not believe that Joseph Smith did more for us than any other man, including Jesus Christ.

-We believe that Jesus Christ was the only perfect being ever to live on the Earth and that His Atonement is the most important thing ever done here.

"And Videosift wept.", "For Videosift so loved the world that Siftbot gave his only begotten son."... Well if blasphemy isn't in order then plagiarism is on the menu.

The full movie is available on Google video:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7973225371449473825&q=begotten

not weighing in on the video but the comments have me wondering now .....

which one is right, since both religions want you to believe in their god?!?!?!?

'Had thy Lord willed, everyone on earth would have believed. Do you then force people to become believers?' ?????? ???? ??????? ?????? ??? ??? ???????? ????????? ???????? ????????? ??????? ???????? ?????? ?????????? ???????????(Qur'an 10:99)
OR
'For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.' (John 3:16)