...and God said "Let there be PREZZIES!"

This is just a ploy by atheists who want people to believe that Santa Claus doesn't actually exist.

Shh...listen...you hear that?

It's the sound of a hundred thousand Christians with their fingers in their ears, eyes clamped shut, humming Little Drummer Boy.

...which is also a pagan song... :-)
You know I'd really like to send this link to my sister in particular who has gone very much over the edge with her religion but I'm afraid it would cause too much family turmoil...

indeed, last christmas after i "came out" as an atheist my brother told me after the celebration that everyone had a little "meeting" to discuss how to best approach asking me to leave if i started to argue against the existance of god or something (obviously i wasnt there)

some family eh? and more importantly, if you ask me, some religion eh? these people were prepared to kick me out of the house because of their religious beliefs.

now, while i do have strong beliefs i think i am a very respectable person and am not out to interrupt people in celebration like that but still...makes me want to do it this year just fer the hell of it

hah hell

I'm a Christian who celebrates Advent. I worship Jesus in the Advent season by giving extra to those needier than i (most going to http://water.cc, but some also to feed Rwandan kids and some to a local single mother of 5 through the Something Wonderful program), by reading and meditating about Christ's coming to earth as a man, and by doing these things communally with my friends and family. I think those are very much the kind of ways God wants to be worshipped.

I also happen to be an American who celebrates christmas. I buy and decorate a tree, put lights on my house, and enjoy stories of Rudolph, Frosty, Santa, and Mr. Hanky the christmas poo. I do not do these things as worship to my God; i do them as fun family traditions that brighten up some of the darkest and coldest weeks of the year. God doesn't want us to worship him as pagans worshipped their gods, but that doesn't mean we can't do those same things for other reasons.

Meditate on Matthew 5 and Romans 13 for some better explanations of this than mine. Just please don't go around picking out de-contextualized Old Testament verses and thinking you know more about it, it's hard enough to listen to the Christians that do this. I don't need athiests doing it too, thanks.

http://adventconspiracy.org
http://rethinkingchristmas.com

good for you

the point here is not cherry picking quotes from the OT, but rather about the fact that there's nothing about christmas in the bible other than explanations about why you shouldnt celebrate it.

i once went to a wedding on midsummer day, and the priest said "and midsummer we celebrate because thats when john the baptist was born". it was hard not to laugh.

i'm a former christian who decided to really read the bible, and found nothing divine in it. just lots of hate, rape, war, ridicolous primitive superstition, violence, and an inconsistent god that evolves as the culture worshipping him evolves and gets "modernized".

I think it was Freud who said God was made in the image of man, not the other way around.

That's no reason to put down or lay hate on people, regardless what they believe or don't believe.

Can't we all just get along?

I guess bombs and guns are easier to use than understanding and tolerance (within reason).

>> ^SSIops:
I think it was Freud who said God was made in the image of man, not the other way around.
That's no reason to put down or lay hate on people, regardless what they believe or don't believe.
Can't we all just get along?
I guess bombs and guns are easier to use than understanding and tolerance (within reason).


I'm more than happy to let religious people practice their faith... until they start passing laws based on the bible (or their narrow view of it).

i seriously don't know how any christian can have more than the most basic personal posessions, let alone buy tree decorations.

@nadabu, thanks for telling us all how you are a good christian. On an internet forum. Seen by men.


"When you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."
-Matthew 6:5-6

nadabu is absolutely right. Christians don't do the things at Christmas that corporate America wants to worship God. It is possible to partake in an even that isn't specifically forbidden and still worship God. Just because some traditions may have pagan roots [citaion really fucking needed] does not mean they are being done as worship.

Way to pull a Palin an totally skirt the question, though.

I took nabadu's advice and meditated for five hours about Christ's coming to earth as a man.

However I was interrupted after about three seconds when a rational thought flashed into my head and I realised it was a load of old bollocks.

>> ^MarineGunrock:
Just because some traditions may have pagan roots [citaion really fucking needed] does not mean they are being done as worship.


A quick search for christmas on wikipedia brings up a bunch of links and a summary on its pagan roots.

>> ^nadabu:
Just please don't go around picking out de-contextualized Old Testament verses and thinking you know more about it, it's hard enough to listen to the Christians that do this.


If Christians are legislating their de-contextualized Bible quotes - which affects all of us - it seems like a good cause to point out the many parts of the Bible that contradict their positions.

Oh, I do love Bible verses taken out of context! I'm sure all the educated people here on the sift dutifully checked their facts instead of just blindly believing what someone told them because it went in line with what they wanted to hear! Because then you would have known that the referred verse actually says "You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods."

Canaanite "worship" with sex orgies and human sacrifice was religiously false, morally corrupt, physically brutal and socially destructive and God wanted the worship of him to be in line with His character. God wanted a union between their morality and their religion.

The Mark 7 verse is again, out of context. In the passage Pharisees are chewing out Jesus because the disciples were eating without ceremonially washing their hands (making them unclean) and Jesus chastises the Pharisees for still not getting it - he replies that, "Nothing outside a man can make him 'unclean' by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him 'unclean."

Everything in the Old Testament distinguished as either clean or unclean was supposed to remind the Israelite people that they were to be a nation set apart, an example to all the others around them that as the people of God they weren't to conform to the practices of neighbors in how they worshiped their God, or in how they interacted with others. Even if neighboring nations think it's okay to burn children, sell wives, and cut themselves in worship, the Israelites weren't supposed to. Through the law, they were supposed to see God's character and what He cared about and begin to take action on what He cared about (namely: holy worship, living, and the sanctity of all human life). Instead, they just saw a list of requirements for their ticket to heaven, effectively creating what we know as legalism. God wanted their hearts, not lip-service.


And as for the Latin logo at the end (veritas vos liberabit meaning "the truth shall set you free"), that phrase was also coined by Jesus (John 8:32). You know, when he said "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

See also: Jesus = Sun God.

>> ^MarineGunrock:
nadabu is absolutely right. Christians don't do the things at Christmas that corporate America wants to worship God. It is possible to partake in an even that isn't specifically forbidden and still worship God. Just because some traditions may have pagan roots [citaion really fucking needed] does not mean they are being done as worship.
Way to pull a Palin an totally skirt the question, though.


some day around the end of december, and some day about 6 monts before are very celebrated days in many cultures and traditions. peoples noticed that the sun "turned" around these days and have some sort of festivity/religious arrangement attached to those days.

the swedes, they stick a big penis (with testicles and all) into the ground and dance around it on the summers longest day. a fertility rite.

we still call christmas Jul (yule), the germanic pagan name for the uhmm.. event. not Christ Mass like english hurches.

The christmas three, if i remember corretly, it is something green and shiny we bring into our homes on the years darkest day as a symbol of lighter and greener times (spring) that are coming.

"Oh, I do love Bible verses taken out of context!"

Does that include the rape and stoning parts?

You are partially right lavoll
But all religions are a combination of folk beliefs, rituals, traditions etc.
That's just how religion works.
There is the moral dimension, the philosophical and so forth.
You can appropriate a pagan festival and still be christian.
The logic of ritual can accommodate paradoxes.

@MINK
I see your Matthew 6:5-6 and i'll raise you a Matt. 5:16

"In the same way, let your light shine before people in such a way that they will see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven."

Now, was i praying in public for show or was i letting people see some of the good works that God has inspired me to do?

And again, you like so many christians and non-christians, fundamentally misread the Bible by thinking that the external action is the point. No, the external actions are merely inconclusive evidence of internal motivations. This is why God alone is judge, we can only see the surface, but God sees the heart. Jesus was not criticizing public prayer; he was criticizing those who prayed publicly from selfish, prideful motivations.

@chilaxe
I also despise it when christians try to legislate based on de-contextualized scripture as well. Actually, i don't particularly like it when they try to legislate based on scripture at all. Legislation can only deal with surface actions, not the heart of people. As such, it is ABSOLUTELY AND COMPLETELY IMPOSSIBLE TO PROPERLY LEGISLATE ANY MORALITY. Attempts to do so are inefficient, idiotic, and counter-productive. Such things just encourage people to stay on the surface level and ignore the needed change of heart.

>> ^bluecliff:
You are partially right lavoll
But all religions are a combination of folk beliefs, rituals, traditions etc.
That's just how religion works.
There is the moral dimension, the philosophical and so forth.
You can appropriate a pagan festival and still be christian.
The logic of ritual can accommodate paradoxes.

But don't you see they're not participating in pagan celebrations, they don't know they're pagan celebrations. Every ritual in Christianity has been co-opted from other religions but they think there's some biblical/holy basis for their rituals, when their rituals were just means of converting those that didn't have any interest in being converted.

The way I see it problem isn't with Christians using pagan celebrations, but rather their trying to exclude others from celebrating on the grounds that they aren't Christians.

Ahaha...haha. HA! That had me laughing for a few minutes!

>> ^Morganth:
Canaanite "worship" with sex orgies and human sacrifice was religiously false, morally corrupt, physically brutal and socially destructive and God wanted the worship of him to be in line with His character.

Jews worshipped the God of the Old Testament for thousands of years before Jesus arrived on the scene, and you expect them to just obey the words of some hippie carpenter from Nazareth? Give me a break. God commanded strict adherence to his laws, killing people who didn't obey, and you actually think the same God would come to earth in human form and try to change everything from dogmatism to philosophical worship? You have got to be kidding me!

And the words "the truth shall set you free" were spoken by Jesus, but that doesn't mean he coined the phrase. I'm quite sure the ancient Greeks knew that "the unexamined life is not worth living." Which is the same phrase, but in a deeper context.

>> ^Morganth:
Everything in the Old Testament distinguished as either clean or unclean was supposed to remind the Israelite people that they were to be a nation set apart, an example to all the others around them that as the people of God they weren't to conform to the practices of neighbors in how they worshiped their God, or in how they interacted with others. Even if neighboring nations think it's okay to burn children, sell wives, and cut themselves in worship, the Israelites weren't supposed to. Through the law, they were supposed to see God's character and what He cared about and begin to take action on what He cared about (namely: holy worship, living, and the sanctity of all human life). Instead, they just saw a list of requirements for their ticket to heaven, effectively creating what we know as legalism. God wanted their hearts, not lip-service.

And as for the Latin logo at the end (veritas vos liberabit meaning "the truth shall set you free"), that phrase was also coined by Jesus (John 8:32). You know, when he said "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

I think people are all getting their noses bent out of shape in the wrong manner here.

The point is... Christmas, as we celebrate it IS NOT to do with the birth of Jesus. It WAS an incorporating of other culture's festivals into Christianity in order for Christianity to be better accepted by those who did not practice it. (in a sort of 'hey, look, we celebrate that too... except that really it's about god... no really, trust us')

But I don't think this is trying to say I'M RIGHT, YOU'RE WRONG... it's trying to say, stop getting shitty at non christians having fun at Christmas. We have fun at christmas because it's a wonderful festival of lights, decorations, eating, family, fun.

We understand that many of the songs we sing are religious, but also a lot of us just grew up with them and may not believe the words, but when you grow up with something you have a soft spot for it.

Christians shouldn't be telling non-Christians to stop celebrating christmas, because their basis for doing so is just as shallow as everyone elses... everyone should celebrate it if they wish and attach whatever personal meaning they wish to it.

@nabadu

i see you admit that your holy text is self contradictory and open to interpretation.

Santa Claus is my savior, so in my eyes all of you non-Clausians are horning in on my party at Christmas.

Knock it off!

Seems to me that if Christians can pick and choose verses, disavow other verses, and constantly reinterpret yet others in order to attempt to validate and impose their values in a continuously changing and modernizing society, then atheists can pick and choose verses to tell you how full of crap it all is.

>> ^thinker247:
Jews worshipped the God of the Old Testament for thousands of years before Jesus arrived on the scene, and you expect them to just obey the words of some hippie carpenter from Nazareth? Give me a break. God commanded strict adherence to his laws, killing people who didn't obey, and you actually think the same God would come to earth in human form and try to change everything from dogmatism to philosophical worship? You have got to be kidding me!

And for those thousands of years they were anticipating the Messiah who was said to come and save them - they know perfectly well about all the prophecies for one (Jews today will say that they are still waiting). Rather, they didn't want to listen to Jesus because they got caught up in legalism and because they were hoping for someone to overthrow the Romans - they wanted a military savior instead of Jesus. And please don't tell me that you actually think that Jesus came just for more obedience or a change of philosophy. I'm sorry, but you have a terribly, terribly wrong understanding of what Christianity actually is or believes.


I'm not really interested in getting into a troll war, so this is as much as I'm going to say. If you want to keep going with this and message me, that's fine, I'll even listen (since most "debates" are really just who can shout their opinions the loudest and not true debates).

>> ^Sketch:
Seems to me that if Christians can pick and choose verses, disavow other verses, and constantly reinterpret yet others in order to attempt to validate and impose their values in a continuously changing and modernizing society, then atheists can pick and choose verses to tell you how full of crap it all is.


This is ultimately the point I got from reading every comment here. Well said.

>> ^nadabu:
I do not do these things as worship to my God; i do them as fun family traditions that brighten up some of the darkest and coldest weeks of the year. God doesn't want us to worship him as pagans worshipped their gods, but that doesn't mean we can't do those same things for other reasons.

Yeah, it's not like he brought an evergreen from the forest inside his house and decorated it with the symbolic entrails of woodland creatures on the shortest day of the year when the sun begins it journey back to the south again.

I mean that would be like Pagan rituals, and the one true God clearly wouldn't want that.

Jezaas wasn't born at christmas day? yeah right...

that's why it's called christmas day coz that's the birth of our lord and savior, that's a common knowledge...this video is full of lies, your bible interpretation is wrong because you don't have the holy spirit in you. You should ask my pastor, he knows his shit. And besides your heart is blinded and corrupted by this world and satan. repent sinners, the end of days is near...

And when that day comes, I will be looking down on you from heaven, giving you a finger.

stupid asshole atheist

@MINK
wow. my eyes have been opened! all i need was you to claim that those two verses are contradictory without explanation, and i'm convinced! well done, mate, well done.

^sarcasm?

I am appalled by the lack of fact checking... see, Christmas is made up two words Mas and Christ, mas is derived from Latin meaning more, while Christ is Latin for "the only one true savior as described by the new testament in the only true Bible write by God". Do you really think that Santa Claus is the one that brings presents during Christmas... pfff, that's only in America (where Satan implanted secularism into the government to prevent religion from infringing on basic human rights of individuals and enacting policies and laws on the bases of faith), Baby Jesus is the one that brings the presents. You can't argue because I saw him.