WE ARE NOT FUCKING ANGRY, YOU CUNT!

Uhm, I mean, care for some tea and crumpets?

Edit: Dammit, after the video I am pretty angry. Why do people suck so damn much?

This makes me angry too. Religion is defiantly the cause of a lot of problems in the world. Its funny how people don't think about whats right or wrong. Sometimes I think there are two types of people in the world those that are evolving and those that are born unevolved. LOL Does that make sense?

>> ^ctrlaltbleach:
This makes me angry too. Religion is defiantly the cause of a lot of problems in the world. Its funny how people don't think about whats right or wrong. Sometimes I think there are two types of people in the world those that are evolving and those that are born unevolved. LOL Does that make sense?


http://www.d-e-f-i-n-i-t-e-l-y.com/

These people need Jesus.

I try not to get into religeous debates but religion does seem to lead the hate and bigotry in this world. (all religion) - even though there are alot of good people involved in religion, they seem lead astray from what "GOOD" actualy means!

WTF was that Mickey Mouse giving a militant hate speech!

LMAO

>> ^Zonbie:
WTF was that Mickey Mouse giving a militant hate speech!
LMAO


You never seen Jihad Mouse before? Been on the internets for quite a while.

I disagree on the intellectual argument behind this video.

Essentially what it postulates is that religion makes people stupid, and thus if religion is done away with people will suddenly all becoming enlightened and or better at treating fellow humans beings.

People do stupid things because people are stupid and ignorant. You take away religion they are still going to be stupid and ignorant.

This is why this whole argument fails to gain traction with anyone who is culturally religious, agnostic or spiritual, it weakens the case being brought against religion.

^I both agree and disagree. People are stupid regardless of religion, but what religion tends to do is to give the stupid people a pulpit to spew their stupidity from (not that all the people on pulpits are spewing stupidity).

Lots of things give people pulpits to spew nonsense. I just don't think it would necessarily stop if you do away with religion, some other belief system will simply replace it, we see this happening with Scientology, new age science and so on.

I believe that religion is as a model was never really an absolute truth but rather as a social construct. Religion has historically traced to the dawn of writing around 5,000 years back, but its origins probably date much further.

The age of reason only really started around the 14th and 15th centuries, only hit mainstream I believe in the late 20th century. That is alot of history to contend with, naturally it will take much longer for this system to slowly recede into the background.

Tags for this video have been changed from 'atheism, religion, anger' to 'atheism, religion, anger, fag feces' - edited by Ornthoron

"We're a virus with shoes." --Bill Hicks

I'm an atheist, but I'm not angry. Perturbed a bit, yes. But not angry. I can't be angry when humans do wacky shit, be it in the name of a god or in the name of voices in their heads. I guess that could be both. But anyway...

When you evolve a brain inside a limited body, the signals of past millenia intermingle with the ideas of today. Thus, chaos reigns in the human mind. And some people have the capacity to handle it better than others. Thus, religion is not the culprit. Rather, the problem lies with our evolution.

So I'm not angry at these nutcases. Just sad that they weren't able to understand their own evolution in order to live a happy life without forcing their ideas upon others.

>> ^burdturgler:
>>^ctrlaltbleach:
This makes me angry too. Religion is defiantly the cause of a lot of problems in the world. Its funny how people don't think about whats right or wrong. Sometimes I think there are two types of people in the world those that are evolving and those that are born unevolved. LOL Does that make sense?

http://www.d-e-f-i-n-i-t-e-l-y.com/


Thanks LOL I knew I was spelling it wrong but I was in a hurry.

I can't help but notice that most of the terrible things done in the name of religion are things that are forbidden by that particular religion.

There will always be ignorant people, some will be religious and some won't. There are plenty of horrible things done by people for all sorts of non-religious reasons.

I know it's easy to blame religion for the ignorance of horrible people, but I'm willing to bet that they would be horrible people either way. They aren't following their religion to begin with, so I see no reason to think that removing religion from the equation would make them wonderful loving people.

(Edit: I see this was mentioned above as well)



As an aside, I'm never happy about people trying to pass laws based on religious texts.

/yelling "If you don't believe in Jesus then Santa Claus won't bring you any presents this year!"


(I couldn't resist)

The problem is the contradiction and the dogmatism combined.
If you can make people vehemently stand by an idea and defend it to the death, and even use it as a means to justify causing death then you have something very powerful.
If you can make people defend something to the death which at times contradicts itself and/or does not follow clear, separable, easily understandable logical ideas then you have something even more formidable and powerful than almost anything else we have known.
Allow people to truly let go of reason and you own their souls.
Thing is that none of this was initiated or created with that kind of intent.
This evolved. So it's not a benevolent or vindictive ruler that thought this stuff up to help or control the people. No individual person (or god) created religion. Religion evolved. It's a horrible, controlling set of interlocking memes that eats people's souls and tells them to do horrendous things. All because it has at some point been socially or culturally beneficial for billions of people to replicate these memes.
What a horrifying irony.
And then the best that can come of it is that people are nice to each other, and gain satisfaction that they are the select few who will be rewarded at the end after they have died.
I don't think religion pays it way in the whole balance of right and wrong. It owes us humans a massive ethical and moral debt. The whole system has loaned out imaginary values to the morally bankrupt who then go on to misspend and abuse them and they've promised to repay everyone when we're all dead.

^ I think that often people have more desire to understand the world than the capacity. Religion works much better for that type of person, because it is much simpler than science.

That doesn't make it right, but it does make it rather difficult to fix.

>> ^Psychologic:
^ I think that often people have more desire to understand the world than the capacity. Religion works much better for that type of person, because it is much simpler than science.
That doesn't make it right, but it does make it rather difficult to fix.


The nature of indoctrination eliminates the opportunity for the average "child of faith" to make the choice which is best for them. Their parents decide for them that what they'll believe and how fervently they'll believe it. It's child abuse pure and simple.

The way I see it religion is a developmental dysfunction akin to illiteracy, and we should be doing everything we can as a society to stamp it out.

I have no tolerance for people of faith. And why should I? The majority are hypocritical hate mongers, and the ones that aren't don't do anything about the ones that are. Given the chance any number of them would be more than happy to jail/kill me for being an atheist and members of my family for being gay. They push their myth into our schools, they demand we respect their dogma with our laws, and they stifle the advancement of our society in the process. So yeah, I'm an angry atheist, and I will continue to be so long as the majority of atheists out there remain ambivalent toward the faithful. The religious have long since declared war on our kind, why shouldn't we fight back!

Religion or no religions, the problem is really our need for US and THEM.

It's the core of humans as a creature that's the problem.

Most religions are originally based on love and tolerance, but everyone ignores that.

Humans are: tribal & competitive. We socialise to get a sense of "belonging.
But to know HOW we belong, we always need to know who does and doesn't belong. - "I'm going to heaven and you're going to hell.

Maybe we feel 'special' and 'safe' about belonging if we can show others who don't?

As an intelligent creature on this planet... How do we stop picking sides and hating each other?

When will we feel we all belong, and don't need to find people who don't.

>> ^HollywoodBob:
I have no tolerance for people of faith. And why should I?

I grew up around religion, so I guess I've seen more positives with it than what you see on TV. Kind, supportive people don't make the news.

I think intolerance is one of the things you dislike, and that is not a religious principle. Hate the behavior, not the belief. Intolerance is a part of specific denominations, not all religions. I've seen plenty of intolerance from atheists as well.


The religious have long since declared war on our kind, why shouldn't we fight back!

Because we're better than that.

>> ^Psychologic:
I grew up around religion, so I guess I've seen more positives with it than what you see on TV. Kind, supportive people don't make the news.

Kind and supportive of their own clique does not make for decent human beings.

Decent people do not need faerie tale laws and threats of eternal retribution to be kind and supportive of others.


I think intolerance is one of the things you dislike, and that is not a religious principle. Hate the behavior, not the belief. Intolerance is a part of specific denominations, not all religions. I've seen plenty of intolerance from atheists as well.

Intolerance is only part of what I don't like. My primary fault with religion is ignorance. Anytime I see someone like the people in this video, spewing stupidity, I fill with unbridled rage. These people and their kind are idiots yet they choose the people that control how our society is run. They continue to grow in power, and each year they infect our communities with more and more ignorance and hate.


Because we're better than that.

You hang on to your principles, when you've lost the right to vote, work, own a home, marry, or raise children because you're not one of them, living in a 4'x8' cell enduring force "reeducation", I'm sure knowing that you're better than they are will be a great consolation.

>> ^Farhad2000:
I disagree on the intellectual argument behind this video.
Essentially what it postulates is that religion makes people stupid, and thus if religion is done away with people will suddenly all becoming enlightened and or better at treating fellow humans beings.
People do stupid things because people are stupid and ignorant. You take away religion they are still going to be stupid and ignorant.
This is why this whole argument fails to gain traction with anyone who is culturally religious, agnostic or spiritual, it weakens the case being brought against religion.


Religion is where weak people go to hide from scary facts.

^Don't worry guys. I'm going to become the President of the World and ban indoctrination. Then give it a little time and we won't have to deal with this shit anymore.

>> ^Psychologic:
/yelling "If you don't believe in Jesus then Santa Claus won't bring you any presents this year!"
(I couldn't resist)



Because that is what christmas is about!!!

>> ^HollywoodBob:
Kind and supportive of their own clique does not make for decent human beings.

You assume they were only kind to religious people. This is not the case.

Do you feel that your anger is any better?


My primary fault with religion is ignorance. Anytime I see someone like the people in this video, spewing stupidity, I fill with unbridled rage.

That's fine, they're idiots. That doesn't mean religion causes everyone to act like that. There are atheists who are just as hateful as those in the video, and that is just as bad.


They continue to grow in power, and each year they infect our communities with more and more ignorance and hate. [...] You hang on to your principles, when you've lost the right to vote, work, own a home, marry, or raise children because you're not one of them, living in a 4'x8' cell enduring force "reeducation", I'm sure knowing that you're better than they are will be a great consolation.

Most places I've seen are less religious every year. If you really want to convert people to atheism then show them that you can be a kind and moral person even without religion. Hate and insults will only strengthen their belief that atheism leads to irrational behavior (as you believe religion does).

Where's Louis Theroux when you need him?

I find delicious irony in the fact that some atheists want to start a literal pogrom against all religions (good or bad) in the name of promoting tolerance and understanding. So basically you want to do exactly the same thing that you say is so bad when religions do it?

Religions are not bad in the same way that a gun is not bad. Religions are just philosophies - some of which promote very high ideals and behavior. But PEOPLE are jerks, and misuse guns, cars, booze... And yes, they misuse religion. And yes there are JERKS out there (such as this video and some of you in this thread) that misuse atheism too.

Moral of the story? Don't be a jerk.

>> ^Farhad2000:
I disagree on the intellectual argument behind this video.
Essentially what it postulates is that religion makes people stupid, and thus if religion is done away with people will suddenly all becoming enlightened and or better at treating fellow humans beings.
People do stupid things because people are stupid and ignorant. You take away religion they are still going to be stupid and ignorant.
This is why this whole argument fails to gain traction with anyone who is culturally religious, agnostic or spiritual, it weakens the case being brought against religion.


I was going to write at lenght about the same thing, but you said all I had to say. I have no problem with religious people per se. I do on the other hand have a problem with stupid people.

Adaptation. That's all it is.

To reiterate on my point: My main problem about religion is not only that it gives stupid people a pulpit to spew their stupidity from, it's also that most of the people on the planet demands that you respect the stupidity just because it's religion.

I'm totally against giving anything more respect than it's due, and in my view stupidity is not something I want to give any respect to all.

Agree with those above. It's not religion that makes people stupid and ignorant. If religion was removed, they still would be and we'd simply have another scapegoat. Besides that are religions and religious or spiritual people who are a benefit to society. Few to none of them are monotheistic however and some (such as Buddhism,) do not include the worship of a deity.

Now to comment on the video.

1: How can Ben Stein be so intelligent yet so absolutely clueless? To other bits about that subject. Evolution doesn't require 'belief.' Either does any other scientific principal or theory with such unsurmountable evidense.. such as gravity. People denying such theories is about as stupid as denying that the earth circles the sun. (Though there are plenty who believe the opposite because their holy book says so.)

2: It makes me laugh my ass off to see people who think we are in the end times. Really it does. Every time I meet someone who thinks were approaching the end I tell them. 'You really should read up on a little phase of western cultured called the Dark Ages. Because trust me they had it WAY worse then you can imagine. You think were coming to the end today because of war, plagues, etc. If you were able to experience life in the Dark Ages you would never even think such thing again. Because your life as the a utopia compared to what those people experienced.' Really, such thoughts are laughable.

>> ^Psychologic:
You assume they were only kind to religious people. This is not the case.

It sadly is that way for most of religions. Just look at all the denominations of Christianity that think that if you're not in their particular sect you're not following the Truth and therefore going to hell. If they can't even respect people with nearly the same beliefs as them why do they deserve my respect? The particular group you're referring to may be an exception, if so good for them.

Do you feel that your anger is any better?

Better? Absolutely not, I've never claimed that my immense distrust and dislike for anyone with any religious faith makes me a good person. I accept that it's a character flaw. But when I see a billboard quoting scripture, hear about one of my friends being beaten for being gay, or see that the school board is ditching sex ed and adding "Evolution is make beleive" stickers to text books, I do feel that I have a some justification for my anger.
That's fine, they're idiots. That doesn't mean religion causes everyone to act like that.

Except that because of their religion they're given a free pass to be idiots by all facets of our society. Laws are written to support their dogma, school curriculums are changed to maintain their hold on children, politicians pander to their interests even when all available evidence proves the opposite course of action is better.

There are atheists who are just as hateful as those in the video, and that is just as bad.

The difference is that atheists are marginalized at all turns. We are a larger minority than any other, but are the only one that can be openly discriminated against. I'd say we've plenty of cause to be hateful.

Most places I've seen are less religious every year. If you really want to convert people to atheism then show them that you can be a kind and moral person even without religion. Hate and insults will only strengthen their belief that atheism leads to irrational behavior (as you believe religion does).

While that may be true for a large portion of the world, it's certainly not the case everywhere. In the US Evangelical Christianity continues to gain in numbers and political power each year. A recent Gallop poll showed that only 39% of Americans believe in Evolution. In Africa Christian missionaries have led to the out of control AIDS pandemic, which will cost the lives of millions of people. Islamofascism and the lack of understanding of the causes of terrorism, creating the "War on Terror", has cost the lives of countless innocent people and helped to bring about global economic disaster. Rationalism is losing ground to the lunacy of religion.

I accept that not every person of faith fits the type of people I've been talking about, that I'm generalizing quite a bit, but I can't help noticing that the intelligent/tolerant/forward thinking believers don't seem to make much effort to correct the impression that religious people are xenophobic, homophobic, ignorant people.

Now if we were to see more evidence that more religious people were embracing rationalism, tolerance, and making a concerted effort to distance themselves from their less appealing brethren, than I'd be willing to change my impression of the faithful. As it stands, I've no reasons to change my mind on anything more than an individual basis once a person has proven themselves better than my assumptions.

>> ^HollywoodBob:
>> ^Psychologic:
I have no tolerance for people of faith. And why should I? The majority are hypocritical hate mongers, and the ones that aren't don't do anything about the ones that are.


that's a bold statement mate. The majority eh? You sure its not just the "loudest" ones?

and HollywoodBob, consider this: it can be stifling to try and assure a social group that your social group is trying to help when the rest of your social group hurts, offends, and turns away so many.

As a analogy that's a bit silly, If everyone hated McDonalds because their food wasn't that great and the service was awful and the staff was rude, how hard do you think it would be for that one McDonalds establishment with the good food, and friendly service, and staff that cared about the customers to get any kind of business?

This may not mean much, but rest assured, there are many like me who commit our lives to rectifying the state that the Church is currently in and reconciling ourselves to the world around us.

>> ^smooman:
that's a bold statement mate. The majority eh? You sure its not just the "loudest" ones?

When I look at the passage of faith based propositions that essentially legislate Biblical bigotry, election of hate mongering Evangelicals that are amazingly unqualified for their position, etc., I can't help but conclude that either sensible people of faith do not speak out, or they are outnumbered by the lunatics.

and HollywoodBob, consider this: it can be stifling to try and assure a social group that your social group is trying to help when the rest of your social group hurts, offends, and turns away so many.
As a analogy that's a bit silly, If everyone hated McDonalds because their food wasn't that great and the service was awful and the staff was rude, how hard do you think it would be for that one McDonalds establishment with the good food, and friendly service, and staff that cared about the customers to get any kind of business?

I think this illustrates my point exactly. Others here seem to think that, to maintain the analogy, a single franchise is telling their patrons to eat shit and then serving it to them. They promote the "don't hate them all because a few are crazy, stupid and mean" mentality, but I just have difficulty following that line of thinking when I see far more of the crazy, stupid and mean believers, than I do the rational, intelligent and kind ones. And I am genuinely afraid that left unchecked, the lunatic believers will continue to gain power until we're left with in fascist Christian theocracy.

This may not mean much, but rest assured, there are many like me who commit our lives to rectifying the state that the Church is currently in and reconciling ourselves to the world around us.

To be honest it means a lot. I wish that I had more interaction with people like you, so that I'd have a better impression of the faithful. I know I come across as a total asshole when it comes to how I view people of faith, if I wanted to divulge my personal history, I'm sure you'd understand my vitriol. And believe me when I say that I'm not happy with how much I automatically dislike people because of their faith. But encountering a few nice people doesn't repair the damage done during a lifetime of dealing with scumbags. Maybe in another 35 years I'll have met enough people like you to tip the scales.

WTF! People are crazy in general, and one person can screw things up for the many. That is what sucks.

Also, just as it is to everything there are positives and negatives. Great people, great minds, great ideas, and great things have come from religion and spirituality.

Just because we would find another scapegoat than religion, if it were removed, doesn't mean that we shouldn't remove it. There is no rational justification for any religions anymore.

Some atheists (not all) are the 'gun control' freaks of the philosophical world. Religion is too dangerous. Some people do too much harm with it. Therefore to prevent the harms, they want to remove religion from people. Supposedly that'll fix it, right?

Some individuals misuse religion. This is true. But such persons would misuse any tool or philosophy. Confining the argument to religon is a biased position to take when there are countless other political, social, financial, or other organizations that also influence people negatively.

The 'ban religion' proponents also damage thier credibility by grossly exaggerating the perceived 'harms' of religions, while studiously ignoring the many good things. Religions teach people to behave better, feel remorse, repent, change thier lives, treat others with charity, and improve the world. To ignore substantive 'good' and focus only on the 'bad' is the hallmark of a lazy argument borne out of ignorance, fear, prejudice, or hatred - and makes some atheists come across as alarmist demagogues rather than serious advocates.

And finally the entire 'take the bad away and you solve the problem' argument is a non-sequiter. Take the religion from people and human beings will still harm, maim, kill, butcher, oppress, be intolerant, and otherwise be jerks to thier fellow men. It isn't the religion. It is the PEOPLE. Take away the religion, and the jerks in the population will find some other avenue, excuse, motive, or organization to nurture their jerkiness.

Anti religion zealots are fighting the wrong battle. Instead of banning religions, you should join with them to encourage thier positive aspects and minimize the negatives. Working WITH religions and teaching more people to magnify thier positive aspects is far more likely to improve the world than any attempt to 'ban' a philosophy you personally dislike. You may feel religious motivation to do good is superstitious, outmoded, anachronistic humbuggery, but if your ultimate goal is 'better people' the trappings of religious creeds should be irrelevant to you.

If your goal is NOT 'better people' but 'I wanna wipe out religion cuz IhateitIhateitIhateit!' then that is another matter entirely...

^ I don't think there are many atheists wanting to "ban religion". They just want it to dwindle away naturally once all the perks religion has on behalf of nonbelievers are banished.

They just want it to dwindle away naturally once all the perks religion has on behalf of nonbelievers are banished.

Naturally dwindle away once perks religion has on behalf of non-believers are banished... I don't understand that sentence. What does it mean exactly?

Regardless, the central position of some of these atheists seems to be that religion ISN'T just dwindling away. In fact, they seem quite alarmed by the fact that the opposite is happening. Therefore they are wanting to suppress/oppress religion in order to prime the dwindling pump so to speak.

I'm an atheist. I'm not angry.

Pointing fingers is silly, we live in the house/city/country/world our species has built. There's a lot of good stuff, a lot of bad stuff (subjective labels).

Am I alone in believing there is no such thing as utopia? Never was, never will be.

"People are a problem" - Douglas Adams.

Great line from one of my favorite 80s bands, Men At Work in thier song "Dr. Heckyl & Mr. Jive".

"Oh hey hey - he fumbles for what to say...
He loves the world - except for all the PEOPLE..."

>> ^Winstonfield_Pennypacker:
They just want it to dwindle away naturally once all the perks religion has on behalf of nonbelievers are banished.
Naturally dwindle away once perks religion has on behalf of non-believers are banished... I don't understand that sentence. What does it mean exactly?
Regardless, the central position of some of these atheists seems to be that religion ISN'T just dwindling away. In fact, they seem quite alarmed by the fact that the opposite is happening. Therefore they are wanting to suppress/oppress religion in order to prime the dwindling pump so to speak.


I don't want to ban religion, I think it's dangerous and I've given examples why, but if you practice a religion because you think it makes you a better person and in doing so don't deny others their chance at a full and happy life, that's fine.

I'll settle for two simple things:

1) Get religion out of school curriculums. I don't care if kids want to pray or don't believe in evolution, so long as the Church hasn't forced the school to provide time for prayer and label evolution as "Just a theory". And if you don't want your kids having sex fine teach them not to have sex, but if we're going to have any kind of sex ed programs they should be comprehensive not abstinence only (which we know doesn't work).

2) Strip religion of it's political power. When a piece of legislation's only basis is Bible verse, it shouldn't even be allowed on the ballot. Faith based governmental programs, they can go too. And lets also get rid of tax exempt status for churches, if they've got the millions to spend on advertising and propaganda campaigns they can do their part to pay for our government.

The above suggestions aren't terrible or drastic. I won't expect to see them ever put into practice, but it'd be nice to see more people advocating them.

>> ^HollywoodBob:
>> ^Winstonfield_Pennypacker:
They just want it to dwindle away naturally once all the perks religion has on behalf of nonbelievers are banished.
Naturally dwindle away once perks religion has on behalf of non-believers are banished... I don't understand that sentence. What does it mean exactly?
Regardless, the central position of some of these atheists seems to be that religion ISN'T just dwindling away. In fact, they seem quite alarmed by the fact that the opposite is happening. Therefore they are wanting to suppress/oppress religion in order to prime the dwindling pump so to speak.

I don't want to ban religion, I think it's dangerous and I've given examples why, but if you practice a religion because you think it makes you a better person and in doing so don't deny others their chance at a full and happy life, that's fine.
I'll settle for two simple things:
1) Get religion out of school curriculums. I don't care if kids want to pray or don't believe in evolution, so long as the Church hasn't forced the school to provide time for prayer and label evolution as "Just a theory". And if you don't want your kids having sex fine teach them not to have sex, but if we're going to have any kind of sex ed programs they should be comprehensive not abstinence only (which we know doesn't work).
2) Strip religion of it's political power. When a piece of legislation's only basis is Bible verse, it shouldn't even be allowed on the ballot. Faith based governmental programs, they can go too. And lets also get rid of tax exempt status for churches, if they've got the millions to spend on advertising and propaganda campaigns they can do their part to pay for our government.
The above suggestions aren't terrible or drastic. I won't expect to see them ever put into practice, but it'd be nice to see more people advocating them.


1) Religion is and has been out of public school curriculum for quite some time now. As per sex ed, well I havent been in High School for almost 10 years but when I was we were NOT taught abstinence only. It should be noted that I graduated from Sapulpa, OK, THE buckle of the Bible Belt.

2) I am 100% FOR separation of Church and State. I'm pretty sure this is just an over the top statement but, "When a piece of legislation's only basis is Bible verse, it shouldn't even be allowed on the ballot" if you actually believed this is what happens then perhaps our government and system of laws is FAR more muffed up than we realize.

Rid tax exemption from religion? I'm positive now that this is an angry rant rather than a constructive, thought out, criticism. Firstly, take away religious tax exemption and probably more than half of non profit charities bankrupt overnight. My dad was a minister for almost 40 years. I think the largest congregation he ever pastored was somewhere around 400. Most were 50-200. You may not be familiar with pastoral income which is understandable but NO ONE gets into the ministry for the money. That's not to say that the "megachurches" dont bring in a substantial amount of income. They do. And yes, there are churches or pastors who DO take unfair advantages of these exemptions (most notably Benny Hinn and his nutjob squad).
From a business standpoint, a Church is a nonprofit organization. Take for example my dad. The money he received as "salary" came from the offerings of the congregation. My dad being a good steward took a small fraction of it as his pay. The bulk of it went to bills. It costs money to lease a building to hold services. It costs money to power and heat/cool this building. What was left after that went to community outreach programs. Food drives, house care services, holding services for the Nursing Home (at their request) etc etc. If we wanted to attend things such as church camps or youth conventions, that money came out of our pocket or from fundraisers.
In fact most pastors that I know, and I know a whooooooooole lot, have 2 or 3 jobs. Pastoring is a part time job for most BECAUSE of the "pay".

Anyway, it's understandable the frustration, it really is. I am not exempt from this. But feeding off of one's emotions and acting out of anger are no ways to solve problems

i forgot to add that whatever a pastor takes home as salary IS taxable.

Smooman:

1) the constant battle over evolution science class and prayer in schools is proof that Religion continues to try and enforce it's will over school curriculums, this is to what I was referring. Abstinence only sex ed is a recent development, that has occurred only in the last 8 years after our former administration made it a requirement for any school wanting to receive federal money.

2) You only have to look at the entire gay marriage debacle to see a prime example of the type of legislation that I'm referring to. And yes our government and system of laws really is that screwed up, and it's getting worse as Evangelical Christianity gains in strength.

Taxes, being a percentage of profits, wouldn't bankrupt any small church, as you claim. All building overhead, community outreach costs, and staff salaries would be deductible from their tax burdens as operating costs, just as similar costs are deducted from business tax burdens. So if as you say that nearly all money that churches receive is turned back to the community, small churches would pay little-to-no taxes. The megachurches on the other hand that end their year with billions of dollars in profit, it's only fair that they pay their share in taxes, especially when they use those profits to contribute to political campaigns and buy tons of advertising for ballot amendments.

Anyway, it's understandable the frustration, it really is. I am not exempt from this. But feeding off of one's emotions and acting out of anger are no ways to solve problems.

Well that's not really a big deal for me, the only place I show my frustration is on the internet. I can't risk it in my community, my job and my life would be at risk if I were to speak out as I have here.

You bring some very valid points. I think you still have a misunderstanding of church pay profits or whatever. Talk to a pastor of an average sized church (congregation of 100 or less). Ask 'em what it's like and hopefully you'll have a better understanding of why religious tax exemption is important.

The megachurches and even "medium sized" churches are but a tiny fraction of the whole. I think you are applying the economic problems of this minority, so to speak, across the board

*dead

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