"We Need a Christian Dictator" - since the ungodly can vote

I am flabbergasted. I keep thinking they can't go any more off the deep end.
siftbotsays...

Self promoting this video and sending it back into the queue for one more try; last queued Wednesday, January 26th, 2011 5:35pm PST - promote requested by original submitter bareboards2.

GenjiKilpatricksays...

lmao. wow, holy shit.

I totally thought i could make it thru that.
Tho the "making sure abortion stays legal so he can have sex with no consequences" got me.

aahh, humans are the stupidest kind of ape.. heheh.

shagen454says...

Right at the beginning, "The ignorant get to vote, voting on their narrow interests" and almost immediately he goes onto say "one walks in with wanting to improve society by rolling back abortion."

I think there should be a Christian Apocalypse. Sound the seven or nine trumpets. I don't even care which way they are sent - just send down Jesus or Satan, giant roaches and whoever and let them have their way with them. I'll be ok, I'll still be sifting videos like the one I see now, "How the Human Species Exponentially Evolved without Christianity."

JiggaJonsonsays...

And, if only "virtuous people" get to vote, how do you plan to decide what is virtuous and what isn't exactly?

Oh you have a 2000 year old book full of inarticulate historic records and mythology?

touche' salesman...

spoco2says...

Holy crap it's amazing the complete lack of self awareness these people have. Can he not at all see the bizarre logic he employs that somehow makes HIS views the "right" ones and anyone else's wrong?

Stunning.

Mammaltronsays...

The funny thing is he's right for the first 30 seconds - he's a perfect example of the problem with *everyone* getting to vote.

Now with a benevolent dictator like, say, Stephen Fry, humans might have a chance of not self-destructing. I can't see the current 'popularity contest' method of government getting us through.

RadHazGsays...

I know exactly what an "adolescent preoccupation with self absorption" looks like pal, I just stared at it for 3:49. This is hardly a surprise, this is exactly what all true religion looks like in its real form. "We are right, everyone else is wrong, and will burn for it at some point." No matter how moderate your religious views may be, it boils down to that.

Argsays...

I don't believe that he's sincere in his opinions in the slightest. He's just a scam artist trying to get rich. He knows that he's just playing to a crowd. He's even got the, "please send me money", segment at the end.

csnel3says...

Well, I would vote for having "sex with no consequences". I dont think that means I'm ignorant, just hopefull, and maybe innocent and gullable, and fucking horny, and selfish. Thank God I can vote by mail, that way I dont have to pull my pants up.

L0ckysays...

For the first minute I thought he was an atheist about to make some very intelligent, interesting and controversial points about the inherent systematic problems with the democratic process; challenging something that has become sacrosanct in the modern world; somehow alluding to religion, perhaps by analogy.

The g-force in his u-turn left me with whiplash.

shinyblurrysays...

From a Christian perspective, the message itself is ridiculous because there is no way for human beings to create an ideal society. It doesn't matter if it is a democracy or a dictatorship. The ruler of this world is the Devil. Until Jesus returns, mankind will be subject to his rule, culminating when the Antichrist comes to power. This man does not understand the message and I doubt he is a real Christian.

As for all the wonderful people calling for Christians to disappear, etc, I'll make you a deal. If you don't use this guy as an example for Christians, I won't use you as an example for Atheists.

Opus_Moderandisays...

>> ^shinyblurry:

From a Christian perspective, the message itself is ridiculous because there is no way for human beings to create an ideal society. It doesn't matter if it is a democracy or a dictatorship. The ruler of this world is the Devil. Until Jesus returns, mankind will be subject to his rule, culminating when the Antichrist comes to power. This man does not understand the message and I doubt he is a real Christian.
As for all the wonderful people calling for Christians to disappear, etc, I'll make you a deal. If you don't use this guy as an example for Christians, I won't use you as an example for Atheists.


You can't please everybody. Even if there was a heaven, somebody there would eventually find something to bitch about.

Also, Jesus was black. S.T.B. - Suck The Balls

bobknight33says...

Did you skip your history class?

Dark Ages referred to the period of time ushered in by the fall of the Western Roman Empire.

The decline of the Roman Empire refers to the societal collapse encompassing both the gradual disintegration of the political, economic, military, and other social institutions of Rome.

To be sure Christians have done their good part in making a mockery out of religion. This doesn't make the Bible wrong. Just piss poor examples that do more harm than good.

The irony of this is that our 21st Century world is no less dark. It is an individual darkness, which multiplies and grows as those who reject Gods walk. Our age is characterized by every intellectual and technological advance but our morals have turned backwards.

From 2 Timothy 3
1 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.

The Book of 2 Timothy was written in approximately A.D. 67 which is interesting that for something written so long ago appear so timely today.

I guess that if Nostradamus wrote it more would probably give it more credit.

>> ^TheGenk:

Didn't we have a christian dictatorship on this planet already? What was it called...? Ah yes, the fucking DARK AGE!

honkeytonk73says...

The middle east was once a center for science and knowledge. A cradle of knowledge that we owe MUCH to. Then the fundies gained in power. Now the middle east is in the technological and social outhouse with a grim outlook indeed. The US at this point can go either way. Go fundie and return to the middle ages, or come to it's senses and realize this mythology shit isn't the path to follow if society and science wants to evolve into something better for all mankind.

Reefiesays...

Anyone got a link to the original of this sift? Video won't appear in Firefox or IE for me, just a blank space where it's meant to be. Suitably absurd title has me interested

bareboards2says...

@bobknight33 wrote "It is an individual darkness, which multiplies and grows as those who reject Gods walk."

I know it is a typo, but the extra "s" on God cracks me up. Christians aren't usually so accepting of other religions. Oh Holy Watering Can. Spaghetti Monster.

Ryjkyjsays...

>> ^bobknight33:

The Book of 2 Timothy was written in approximately A.D. 67 which is interesting that for something written so long ago appear so timely today.
I guess that if Nostradamus wrote it more would probably give it more credit.


What's interesting is that people don't realize or don't admit to themselves that they were always like this. Even in Rome. If you love history so much then I'm surprised you would fool yourself into thinking that there was some better time in the past when people were more moral. It just so happens that the people who are allowed to write everyone's history tend to think very highly of themselves. But more and more, as technology allows individuals access to the ability to write their own history and have it preserved, then we learn what truly goes on in the world and are forced to reconcile.

Way more people still give credence to the Bible than to the writings of Nostrodamus, but the two groups have one very strong common thread: the obsession with "end times".

gwiz665says...

They all do. It's very few evil people who actually know they're evil - that's super villain material. Muahaha.
>> ^ponceleon:

I made it 52 seconds in... had to turn it off.
The worst kind of evil is the evil that thinks it is good.

ldeadeyeslsays...

Lmao This is the hardest Trolling I have ever seen. For my own sanity I have to assume this guy spent years crafting this prefect video to piss off the entire internet. Steady Trolling!

Yogisays...

>> ^shinyblurry:

From a Christian perspective, the message itself is ridiculous because there is no way for human beings to create an ideal society. It doesn't matter if it is a democracy or a dictatorship. The ruler of this world is the Devil. Until Jesus returns, mankind will be subject to his rule, culminating when the Antichrist comes to power. This man does not understand the message and I doubt he is a real Christian.
As for all the wonderful people calling for Christians to disappear, etc, I'll make you a deal. If you don't use this guy as an example for Christians, I won't use you as an example for Atheists.


I refer you to my previous post and say to you "You're gonna get your fucking head kicked in!"

Xaielaosays...

>> ^dag:

This is the face of the New Right. Sharia law for Jesustan.


How accurate you are. The extreme right wing that lords over the republican party believes exactly this. They can pretend to themselves and others that they don't. But deep down they do, and they know it.

quantumushroomsays...

How many people has this fool killed or caused to be killed?

Zero.

How many people has islam murdered just in modern times?

Many. And they're just getting started.


Atheism has no exclusive patents on reason or intelligence. Put another way, the atheist's capacity for self-delusion is equal to that of religious folks, it just comes out differently.

Yogisays...

>> ^Xaielao:

>> ^dag:
This is the face of the New Right. Sharia law for Jesustan.

How accurate you are. The extreme right wing that lords over the republican party believes exactly this. They can pretend to themselves and others that they don't. But deep down they do, and they know it.


They do not Lord over the Republican party. They're in there but anyone looking at the policies actually pursued by the Republicans it's quite obvious they're not controlled by the Christian Right. If anything the Republicans control them for a voting block.

Yogisays...

>> ^quantumushroom:

How many people has this fool killed or caused to be killed?
Zero.
How many people has islam murdered just in modern times?
Many. And they're just getting started.

Atheism has no exclusive patents on reason or intelligence. Put another way, the atheist's capacity for self-delusion is equal to that of religious folks, it just comes out differently.


You're comparing this guy...to the entire range of Islamic people? Come on QM you know that's a stupid comparison.

bareboards2says...

A gay man was beat to death in Uganda yesterday. Quite possibly [edit] for being gay. The Christian Right from America went over there and helped roil up the country against homosexuals.

http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2011/01/27/ugandan-gay-rights-activist-murdered

Yesterday. Yesterday. Repeat after me.

Yesterday.

>> ^quantumushroom:

How many people has this fool killed or caused to be killed?
Zero.
How many people has islam murdered just in modern times?
Many. And they're just getting started.

Atheism has no exclusive patents on reason or intelligence. Put another way, the atheist's capacity for self-delusion is equal to that of religious folks, it just comes out differently.

shinyblurrysays...

>> ^Yogi:
>> ^shinyblurry:
From a Christian perspective, the message itself is ridiculous because there is no way for human beings to create an ideal society. It doesn't matter if it is a democracy or a dictatorship. The ruler of this world is the Devil. Until Jesus returns, mankind will be subject to his rule, culminating when the Antichrist comes to power. This man does not understand the message and I doubt he is a real Christian.
As for all the wonderful people calling for Christians to disappear, etc, I'll make you a deal. If you don't use this guy as an example for Christians, I won't use you as an example for Atheists.

I refer you to my previous post and say to you "You're gonna get your fucking head kicked in!"


Oh noes! Please don't hurt me internet.

Yogisays...

>> ^shinyblurry:

>> ^Yogi:
>> ^shinyblurry:
From a Christian perspective, the message itself is ridiculous because there is no way for human beings to create an ideal society. It doesn't matter if it is a democracy or a dictatorship. The ruler of this world is the Devil. Until Jesus returns, mankind will be subject to his rule, culminating when the Antichrist comes to power. This man does not understand the message and I doubt he is a real Christian.
As for all the wonderful people calling for Christians to disappear, etc, I'll make you a deal. If you don't use this guy as an example for Christians, I won't use you as an example for Atheists.

I refer you to my previous post and say to you "You're gonna get your fucking head kicked in!"

Oh noes! Please don't hurt me internet.


Someone just informed me that I can't. However I'm glaring at you pretty hard right now! *glare*

VIRsays...

First time post, I have to say that, while I dont mind other reilgions, christianity assumes that what they believe applies to everyone. Its a belief system designed to strike fear into the hearts of the people that haven't figured out that we are all tied to nature and thus allowing the masters to control them, their thoughts and just about everything else. Its just a belief, its NOT LAW. Stop treating it as such.

Asmosays...

>> ^quantumushroom:

How many people has this fool killed or caused to be killed?
Zero.
How many people has islam murdered just in modern times?
Many. And they're just getting started.



Yes, when you compare one douchebag in a suit to an entire religion spanning hundreds of millions, chances are the numbers are going to be a little one sided ya moron... =)

quantumushroomsays...

No, I'm not comparing him to all Muslims. Just the jihadists causing thousands of needless deaths.


Why is everyone getting worked up about this guy? Like he is some major player and representative of Christianity? He has the reach of Rhode Island public access television.


>> ^Yogi:

>> ^quantumushroom:
How many people has this fool killed or caused to be killed?
Zero.
How many people has islam murdered just in modern times?
Many. And they're just getting started.

Atheism has no exclusive patents on reason or intelligence. Put another way, the atheist's capacity for self-delusion is equal to that of religious folks, it just comes out differently.

You're comparing this guy...to the entire range of Islamic people? Come on QM you know that's a stupid comparison.

Lawdeedawsays...

>> ^shinyblurry:
>> ^Yogi:
>> ^shinyblurry:
From a Christian perspective, the message itself is ridiculous because there is no way for human beings to create an ideal society. It doesn't matter if it is a democracy or a dictatorship. The ruler of this world is the Devil. Until Jesus returns, mankind will be subject to his rule, culminating when the Antichrist comes to power. This man does not understand the message and I doubt he is a real Christian.
As for all the wonderful people calling for Christians to disappear, etc, I'll make you a deal. If you don't use this guy as an example for Christians, I won't use you as an example for Atheists.

I refer you to my previous post and say to you "You're gonna get your fucking head kicked in!"

Oh noes! Please don't hurt me internet.


There seems a hidden conundrum in here... The fact is this guy would be a doche even if religion never existed... Unless people think he would be somehow less douchy?

Yogisays...

>> ^quantumushroom:

No, I'm not comparing him to all Muslims. Just the jihadists causing thousands of needless deaths.

Why is everyone getting worked up about this guy? Like he is some major player and representative of Christianity? He has the reach of Rhode Island public access television.

>> ^Yogi:
>> ^quantumushroom:
How many people has this fool killed or caused to be killed?
Zero.
How many people has islam murdered just in modern times?
Many. And they're just getting started.

Atheism has no exclusive patents on reason or intelligence. Put another way, the atheist's capacity for self-delusion is equal to that of religious folks, it just comes out differently.

You're comparing this guy...to the entire range of Islamic people? Come on QM you know that's a stupid comparison.



Dammit he's right...alright everyone shut it down, last one out get the lights.

Matthusays...

>> ^blankfist:

fear
Government. People ruling other people.


I don't see government as people ruling other people, I see government as people ruling themselves.

And given how many savage compulsive instincts we have left over from caveman days, people NEED to govern themselves. Or else it's just rape and murder.

The truth is, what I perceive as your ideal world, is more people ruling other people than government.

Your ideal world, as it seems to me, I haven't read your book yet, is you saying to other people, "You cannot rape my wife, if you do, I will punish you severely", whereas my idea of government is people forming social contracts with other people to not rape each others wives.

Also, there is no god, enjoy your life.

blankfistsays...

>> ^Matthu:

>> ^blankfist:
fear
Government. People ruling other people.

I don't see government as people ruling other people, I see government as people ruling themselves.
And given how many savage compulsive instincts we have left over from caveman days, people NEED to govern themselves. Or else it's just rape and murder.
The truth is, what I perceive as your ideal world, is more people ruling other people than government.
Your ideal world, as it seems to me, I haven't read your book yet, is you saying to other people, "You cannot rape my wife, if you do, I will punish you severely", whereas my idea of government is people forming social contracts with other people to not rape each others wives.
Also, there is no god, enjoy your life.


People ruling themselves is called "self-governance" and that's exactly what I want. You seem to conflate the idea of self-governance with our current statist system with the rich class at the helm which is a ridiculously misguided notion. It's good to know our Prussian-modeled educational indoctrination system is working as expected.

The truth is, what I perceive as your ideal world is the ruling class controlling the poor. Your ideal world, as it seems to me, I haven't read your book yet, is a world where benevolent oligarchs give favors to the ruling class while placating the majority. See, I can condescend to you too.

bareboards2says...

Excerpt from the wiki article (I take some comfort from the last line of this):

Dominion Theology

Dominion Theology is a grouping of theological systems[5] with the common belief that the law of God - as codified in the Bible - should exclusively govern society, to the exclusion of secular law, a view also known as theonomy. As of 2010[update] the most prominent modern formulation of Dominion Theology is Christian Reconstructionism, founded by R. J. Rushdoony in the 1970s. Reconstructionists themselves use the word dominionism to refer to their belief that Christians alone should control civil government, conducting it according to Biblical law.[6][7] Social scientists have used the word "dominionism" to refer to adherence to Dominion Theology[5][8][9] as well as to the influence in the broader Christian Right of ideas inspired by Dominion Theology.[5] Although many authors have described such influence (particularly of Reconstructionism),[10][11] full adherents to Reconstructionism are few and marginalized among conservative Christians.[10][12][13]


>> ^9547bis:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominionism
They've been here for a generation. They already have financial backing, they have expanded across the globe, and now they're looking for their very own Mussolini to lead them.
Take heed, because one day they'll be coming for you.

Matthusays...

>> ^blankfist:

>> ^Matthu:
>> ^blankfist:
fear
Government. People ruling other people.

I don't see government as people ruling other people, I see government as people ruling themselves.
And given how many savage compulsive instincts we have left over from caveman days, people NEED to govern themselves. Or else it's just rape and murder.
The truth is, what I perceive as your ideal world, is more people ruling other people than government.
Your ideal world, as it seems to me, I haven't read your book yet, is you saying to other people, "You cannot rape my wife, if you do, I will punish you severely", whereas my idea of government is people forming social contracts with other people to not rape each others wives.
Also, there is no god, enjoy your life.

People ruling themselves is called "self-governance" and that's exactly what I want. You seem to conflate the idea of self-governance with our current statist system with the rich class at the helm which is a ridiculously misguided notion. It's good to know our Prussian-modeled educational indoctrination system is working as expected.
The truth is, what I perceive as your ideal world is the ruling class controlling the poor. Your ideal world, as it seems to me, I haven't read your book yet, is a world where benevolent oligarchs give favors to the ruling class while placating the majority. See, I can condescend to you too.


I knew you'd throw that back at me, haha. I'm sorry. I really didn't mean to condescend. I was just trying to express my uncertainty in my understanding of your views, being that my understanding of your views comes only from these sporadic comments.

Matthusays...

@blankfist

I just don't understand how you can have more faith in people being able to govern themselves than faith in people being able to govern one another.

People can justify anything to themselves. Anything. They need to be held accountable to others for their actions. I mean... especially if there's no god. If there's no god, which there isn't, and there's no laws at all... Shame on me maybe, but I'm doing some pretty awful fkn things, I think.

If a government for the people by the people is possible, then that's the best option. I'm not asserting that it is possible, I don't know. I'm just saying if it is possible, it would contribute the most utility to society.

blankfistsays...

>> ^Matthu:

@blankfist
I just don't understand how you can have more faith in people being able to govern themselves than faith in people being able to govern one another.
People can justify anything to themselves. Anything. They need to be held accountable to others for their actions. I mean... especially if there's no god. If there's nogod, which there isn't, and there's no laws at all... Shame on me maybe, but I'm doing some pretty awful fkn things, I think.
If a government for the people by the people is possible, then that's the best option. I'm not asserting that it is possible, I don't know. I'm just saying if it is possible, it would contribute the most utility to society.


That's like saying 'we get our morals from god', which is a popular Christian idea. Wouldn't you agree atheists are typically good and moral people? I would say they are. So I think people can generally be good whether they believe in god or not. I can easily trade that religion with the statist's religion: government.

kceaton1says...

>> ^shinyblurry:

From a Christian perspective, the message itself is ridiculous because there is no way for human beings to create an ideal society. It doesn't matter if it is a democracy or a dictatorship. The ruler of this world is the Devil. Until Jesus returns, mankind will be subject to his rule, culminating when the Antichrist comes to power. This man does not understand the message and I doubt he is a real Christian.
As for all the wonderful people calling for Christians to disappear, etc, I'll make you a deal. If you don't use this guy as an example for Christians, I won't use you as an example for Atheists.


The funny part about saying that "The Devil"™ runs things down here is funny. The reason it's funny is that even when I was a fairly religious person I could never quite figure out why "The Devil"™ was so evil.

He disobeyed "God"™, but that was about it. Apparently, now, he runs a place called Hel or Helle(or if you prefer the misspelled version: hille, hillja, hell, etc...). He's also able to *tempt* us (or if you wish, *we* let him tempt us, giving him even less power) to do things; who knows what though. He's also supposed to be a fallen angel that many think to be red and ugly with horns. It should also be noted that Hell (Hel) has lakes of fire (which sounds cool; almost like Hawaii), but seems to lack all the horrific stuff you hear of elsewhere.

I'm just wondering, why Lucifer (The Bringer of Light) is so "Evil"™? Also, last time I checked "Free Will"™ was sitting around; so if "The Devil"™ runs Earth, why do we need that? His role greatly differs throughout the Christian realm of knowledge as well as those that are linked (like Judaism, Islam, etc...). The idea of a bad guy against the ultimate good guy sent here or another place are in many religions world wide. Some of those religions pre-date Christianity by more than a thousand years and Judaism by hundreds (if not more). Sometimes these "figureheads" have been concentrated into one form as they were once in the form of many figureheads, besides "God" and "the Devil".

There is a litany of things attributed to: Satan, ha-sataan(Judaism has no "real" direct version), Baal Davar, the Devil, Lucifer, Lord of Flies, Dragon (or serpent; is "believed" to be the serpent in the Garden of Eden), Beelzubub (if you like the demon storyline; not a Mormon thing), Iblis, Shaitan, Jinn, Ying-Yang (pick one), Vishnu (atleast one aspect), Set, Apep,Sammael, Belial, ad nauseum...

Anyway, he disagreed with God "about something"; the "about something" depends on the flavor you belong to.

To cut it short: Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Zoroastrianism... They all suffer from the same problem: cognitive dissonance. Not a one holds up to a double-blind scientific experiment, let alone a simple thought experiment. If we have a "God" they most certainly are not prescient or omnipotent. The fact that I can post this kills one half of the logic, the other logic "free will" seems to be negated by every law and fact of science ever put together. You have choice, but it most certainly is not absolute.

shinyblurrysays...


The funny part about saying that "The Devil"™ runs things down here is funny. The reason it's funny is that even when I was a fairly religious person I could never quite figure out why "The Devil"™ was so evil.
He disobeyed "God"™, but that was about it. Apparently, now, he runs a place called Hel or Helle(or if you prefer the misspelled version: hille, hillja, hell, etc...). He's also able to tempt us (or if you wish, we let him tempt us, giving him even less power) to do things; who knows what though. He's also supposed to be a fallen angel that many think to be red and ugly with horns. It should also be noted that Hell (Hel) has lakes of fire (which sounds cool; almost like Hawaii), but seems to lack all the horrific stuff you hear of elsewhere.
I'm just wondering, why Lucifer (The Bringer of Light) is so "Evil"™? Also, last time I checked "Free Will"™ was sitting around; so if "The Devil"™ runs Earth, why do we need that? His role greatly differs throughout the Christian realm of knowledge as well as those that are linked (like Judaism, Islam, etc...). The idea of a bad guy against the ultimate good guy sent here or another place are in many religions world wide. Some of those religions pre-date Christianity by more than a thousand years and Judaism by hundreds (if not more). Sometimes these "figureheads" have been concentrated into one form as they were once in the form of many figureheads, besides "God" and "the Devil".
There is a litany of things attributed to: Satan, ha-sataan(Judaism has no "real" direct version), Baal Davar, the Devil, Lucifer, Lord of Flies, Dragon (or serpent; is "believed" to be the serpent in the Garden of Eden), Beelzubub (if you like the demon storyline; not a Mormon thing), Iblis, Shaitan, Jinn, Ying-Yang (pick one), Vishnu (atleast one aspect), Set, Apep,Sammael, Belial, ad nauseum...
Anyway, he disagreed with God "about something"; the "about something" depends on the flavor you belong to.
To cut it short: Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Zoroastrianism... They all suffer from the same problem: cognitive dissonance. Not a one holds up to a double-blind scientific experiment, let alone a simple thought experiment. If we have a "God" they most certainly are not prescient or omnipotent. The fact that I can post this kills one half of the logic, the other logic "free will" seems to be negated by every law and fact of science ever put together. You have choice, but it most certainly is not absolute.



If you were formally religious I am surprised you don't understand why the Devil is evil. I'll elaborate on this..

In the beginning, when man still dwelled in the Garden of Eden, he existed in a perfect state of grace with God. There was no such thing as sin, or death. Adam and Eve, the first humans, walked and talked with God face to face. God, to test their hearts, only gave them one command..not to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He promised them that if they did so they would surely die.

Now the devil enters the picture. God had made him the most beautiful of all the angels, and gave him great power and dominion. The devil was soon corrupted by his own vanity however, because he started to think "I will be like the Most High" and desired to have his throne beside Gods. His sin was/is pride. Because of this, he was cast down to Earth.

Now God gave Earth to Adam. He was its ruler. Satan knew this, and knew that if he could corrupt him, he would gain power over the whole world because he would gain power over Adam. So the devil came to them and said that God was lying about the apple. That, not only would they not die, but they would become like God by eating it. After eating, Adam and Eve lost their innocence and the state of grace they enjoyed with God by sinning, and brought death into the world. From that moment on they were mortal beings with mortal needs.

Satan has been the ruler of this world since then. His power, however, was broken at Calvary when Christ died on the cross. Christ, the new Adam, lived a sinless life. Being born of a virgin, he did not inherit the sin of Adam. By living a sinless life, he redeemed mankind and gave all people on Earth a way to know God, His Father, through Him. When He died He went down to hell, battered down the gates, and took the power of death from the devil. When He was resurrected, He liberated mankind from the power of death, and was the first fruits of the world to come.

Now, Satan is still the ruler but on the run. He knows his time is short and growing ever shorter. His last shot is when the antichrist comes to power. Now, free will is fairly simple. You have the choice to obey or disobey Gods commands. God doesn't make you love Him. All those who delight in wickedness, however, will be punished on judgment day. Hell was not created for humans, but anyone who throws their lot in with the devil will earn the devils reward. His sin was pride, and so too are the ones who reject God similarly prideful, for they believe his lies and reject the truth.

That about sums it up. I would ascribe some cognitive dissonance to your post also, for your conclusions have seemingly been pulled from a hat. How does posting what you did negate anything about Gods omniscience, and how do the arbitrary rules of science say anything about free will? You may want to read about determinism vs free will for some background before you answer.

AnimalsForCrackerssays...

>> ^shinyblurry:


The funny part about saying that "The Devil"™ runs things down here is funny. The reason it's funny is that even when I was a fairly religious person I could never quite figure out why "The Devil"™ was so evil.
He disobeyed "God"™, but that was about it. Apparently, now, he runs a place called Hel or Helle(or if you prefer the misspelled version: hille, hillja, hell, etc...). He's also able to tempt us (or if you wish, we let him tempt us, giving him even less power) to do things; who knows what though. He's also supposed to be a fallen angel that many think to be red and ugly with horns. It should also be noted that Hell (Hel) has lakes of fire (which sounds cool; almost like Hawaii), but seems to lack all the horrific stuff you hear of elsewhere.
I'm just wondering, why Lucifer (The Bringer of Light) is so "Evil"™? Also, last time I checked "Free Will"™ was sitting around; so if "The Devil"™ runs Earth, why do we need that? His role greatly differs throughout the Christian realm of knowledge as well as those that are linked (like Judaism, Islam, etc...). The idea of a bad guy against the ultimate good guy sent here or another place are in many religions world wide. Some of those religions pre-date Christianity by more than a thousand years and Judaism by hundreds (if not more). Sometimes these "figureheads" have been concentrated into one form as they were once in the form of many figureheads, besides "God" and "the Devil".
There is a litany of things attributed to: Satan, ha-sataan(Judaism has no "real" direct version), Baal Davar, the Devil, Lucifer, Lord of Flies, Dragon (or serpent; is "believed" to be the serpent in the Garden of Eden), Beelzubub (if you like the demon storyline; not a Mormon thing), Iblis, Shaitan, Jinn, Ying-Yang (pick one), Vishnu (atleast one aspect), Set, Apep,Sammael, Belial, ad nauseum...
Anyway, he disagreed with God "about something"; the "about something" depends on the flavor you belong to.
To cut it short: Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Zoroastrianism... They all suffer from the same problem: cognitive dissonance. Not a one holds up to a double-blind scientific experiment, let alone a simple thought experiment. If we have a "God" they most certainly are not prescient or omnipotent. The fact that I can post this kills one half of the logic, the other logic "free will" seems to be negated by every law and fact of science ever put together. You have choice, but it most certainly is not absolute.


If you were formally religious I am surprised you don't understand why the Devil is evil. I'll elaborate on this..
In the beginning, when man still dwelled in the Garden of Eden, he existed in a perfect state of grace with God. There was no such thing as sin, or death. Adam and Eve, the first humans, walked and talked with God face to face. God, to test their hearts, only gave them one command..not to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He promised them that if they did so they would surely die.
Now the devil enters the picture. God had made him the most beautiful of all the angels, and gave him great power and dominion. The devil was soon corrupted by his own vanity however, because he started to think "I will be like the Most High" and desired to have his throne beside Gods. His sin was/is pride. Because of this, he was cast down to Earth.
Now God gave Earth to Adam. He was its ruler. Satan knew this, and knew that if he could corrupt him, he would gain power over the whole world because he would gain power over Adam. So the devil came to them and said that God was lying about the apple. That, not only would they not die, but they would become like God by eating it. After eating, Adam and Eve lost their innocence and the state of grace they enjoyed with God by sinning, and brought death into the world. From that moment on they were mortal beings with mortal needs.
Satan has been the ruler of this world since then. His power, however, was broken at Calvary when Christ died on the cross. Christ, the new Adam, lived a sinless life. Being born of a virgin, he did not inherit the sin of Adam. By living a sinless life, he redeemed mankind and gave all people on Earth a way to know God, His Father, through Him. When He died He went down to hell, battered down the gates, and took the power of death from the devil. When He was resurrected, He liberated mankind from the power of death, and was the first fruits of the world to come.
Now, Satan is still the ruler but on the run. He knows his time is short and growing ever shorter. His last shot is when the antichrist comes to power. Now, free will is fairly simple. You have the choice to obey or disobey Gods commands. God doesn't make you love Him. All those who delight in wickedness, however, will be punished on judgment day. Hell was not created for humans, but anyone who throws their lot in with the devil will earn the devils reward. His sin was pride, and so too are the ones who reject God similarly prideful, for they believe his lies and reject the truth.
That about sums it up. I would ascribe some cognitive dissonance to your post also, for your conclusions have seemingly been pulled from a hat. How does posting what you did negate anything about Gods omniscience, and how do the arbitrary rules of science say anything about free will? You may want to read about determinism vs free will for some background before you answer.


Indeed, that does just about sum it up.

Kceaton doesn't need to try to negate your Christian god's omniscience (assuming the proposition that he exists in the first place is true, which you haven't even attempted to demonstrate). You did that just swimmingly all on your own, assuming again, that you're not a liar or playing Devil's Advocate and earnestly believe what you just typed.

Thanks for saving anyone with any inclination to refute your imaginary friend a whole lot of time by doing it for us. Also, cognitive dissonance doesn't mean what you think it means. I would say that you were a fantastic example of it in action but that means you would need to actually recognize (in some form) the incongruity of your own silly, self-contradictory beliefs and/or be bothered by it.

quantumushroomsays...

From that link:

LGBT Activists in Uganda point to a virulently anti-gay March 2009 conference 2009 put on by three American Evangelical activists for inciting the latest round of violence and intimidation against the local LGBT community. Among the three were Holocaust revisionist Scott Lively, Exodus International board member Don Schmierer, and International Healing Foundation’s Caleb Lee Brundidge, who is a protege of ex-gay advocate Richard Cohen. Lively, who blamed gay men for the rise of Nazism and the Rwandan genocide, proudly declared his talk as being a “nuclear bomb” against LGBT advocacy in Africa. (You can read about all of the events of 2009 and early 2010 here.)


So atheists have no problem using these fringe kooks as representatives of true Christendom, but get insulted when it's pointed out 20th century mass murderers were all leaders of communist regimes? Death toll: 100 million and counting

shinyblurrysays...

Indeed, that does just about sum it up.
Kceaton doesn't need to try to negate your Christian god's omniscience (assuming the proposition that he exists in the first place is true, which you haven't even attempted to demonstrate). You did that just swimmingly all on your own, assuming again, that you're not a liar or playing Devil's Advocate and earnestly believe what you just typed.
Thanks for saving anyone with any inclination to refute your imaginary friend a whole lot of time by doing it for us. Also, cognitive dissonance doesn't mean what you think it means. I would say that you were a fantastic example of it in action but that means you would need to actually recognize (in some form) the incongruity of your own silly, self-contradictory beliefs and/or be bothered by it.






Reading comprehension must not be your strong point. Kceaton claimed his very post negated Gods omniscience. That is quite an amazing statement and I was curious as to how that was so. He also asked why the devil was evil, which I explained. He set the terms for the conversation, and I replied. Then you enter and attempt to speak for Kceaton, which no one asked you to do, as if you're the borg collective speaking with one voice. You completely misunderstood everything that is being discussed, glossing over the entire conversation with shallow conclusions, insults, and with absolutely no merit to anything you're saying. I mean I've stepped in deeper puddles.

You also claim that *my* post negates Gods omniscience. Then you go on to say my post negates Gods very existence. Wow. So you're not the sharpest knife in the drawer, I can understand that. I've met many teenagers on the internet who have difficulty forming cohesive arguments in their juvenile desire to attack anything which places their superficial worldview in jeapordy. Perhaps you're just used to shouting at people on XBOX live where you're dealing with beet level intelligence, but in the real world when we open our stupid traps to tear someone else down, it's helpful not to act a complete fool in the process, because when your hypocripsy is exposed (you're not a deep thinker) your criticisms ring rather hollow, and actually serve to show you up instead.

shinyblurrysays...

>> ^quantumushroom:
From that link:

LGBT Activists in Uganda point to a virulently anti-gay March 2009 conference 2009 put on by three American Evangelical activists for inciting the latest round of violence and intimidation against the local LGBT community. Among the three were Holocaust revisionist Scott Lively, Exodus International board member Don Schmierer, and International Healing Foundation’s Caleb Lee Brundidge, who is a protege of ex-gay advocate Richard Cohen. Lively, who blamed gay men for the rise of Nazism and the Rwandan genocide, proudly declared his talk as being a “nuclear bomb” against LGBT advocacy in Africa. (You can read about all of the events of 2009 and early 2010 here.)

So atheists have no problem using these fringe kooks as representatives of true Christendom, but get insulted when it's pointed out 20th century mass murderers were all leaders of communist regimes? Death toll: 100 million and counting



The whole thread was created under that presumption. "I am flabbergasted. I keep thinking they can't go any more off the deep end." They as in all Christians. As in all Christians are kooks. I don't know if this site is just pro-atheist but there is a definite undertone of intolerance and bigotry here against Christians. What happened to civil discourse? Oh yeah, this is the internet. Nevermind.

bareboards2says...

As the person who wrote the description, let me assure you that you have interpreted the "they" incorrectly.

I meant crazy fundamentalists who have a deep need to control the world. Regardless of what religion.

I copied the wiki article and pointed out that this sentence was a deep relief to me: Although many authors have described such influence (particularly of Reconstructionism),full adherents to Reconstructionism are few and marginalized among conservative Christians.

So there is my proof that this is what I meant.

I am also not an atheist. I believe there are things we can't possibly understand with our puny restricted human brains. I respect the personal choices of individuals -- I would never argue someone out of their personal experience of the divine.

What I don't like is when someone uses their personal experience as an excuse to control others, to define "morality" for others. This guy. Mormons working tirelessly on Prop 8. Parents trying to keep any mention of homosexuality out of schools, which perpetuates the bullying and the shaming. edit - And of course when the Bible is used to trump science. That gives me the screaming mimis.

And I believe that when atheists attack someone's belief as irrational, it is no different than a Christian attempting to force their worldview on the atheist. I think atheists take their justifiable anger at Christians attempting to -- and succeeding at -- controlling others through shame, laws, wars and go too far with it -- I don't believe it is necessary to talk someone out of their personal religious experience, IF IF IF that personal religious experience isn't affecting the atheist in any way. I think atheists need to learn to let folks be, and focus on facts -- overturning Prop 8, booting fundamentalist School Board members out.

Them there's my two cents. Sorry you have felt beat up here. The Sift is a great place, with some really really REALLY smart and funny people. Including some, in my opinion, angry atheists. It is part of the Sift's charm, if you can treat it like entertainment.





>> ^shinyblurry:

>> ^quantumushroom:
From that link:

LGBT Activists in Uganda point to a virulently anti-gay March 2009 conference 2009 put on by three American Evangelical activists for inciting the latest round of violence and intimidation against the local LGBT community. Among the three were Holocaust revisionist Scott Lively, Exodus International board member Don Schmierer, and International Healing Foundation’s Caleb Lee Brundidge, who is a protege of ex-gay advocate Richard Cohen. Lively, who blamed gay men for the rise of Nazism and the Rwandan genocide, proudly declared his talk as being a “nuclear bomb” against LGBT advocacy in Africa. (You can read about all of the events of 2009 and early 2010 here.)

So atheists have no problem using these fringe kooks as representatives of true Christendom, but get insulted when it's pointed out 20th century mass murderers were all leaders of communist regimes? Death toll: 100 million and counting


The whole thread was created under that presumption. "I am flabbergasted. I keep thinking they can't go any more off the deep end." They as in all Christians. As in all Christians are kooks. I don't know if this site is just pro-atheist but there is a definite undertone of intolerance and bigotry here against Christians. What happened to civil discourse? Oh yeah, this is the internet. Nevermind.

shinyblurrysays...

>> ^bareboards2:
As the person who wrote the description, let me assure you that you have interpreted the "they" incorrectly.
I meant crazy fundamentalists who have a deep need to control the world. Regardless of what religion.
I copied the wiki article and pointed out that this sentence was a deep relief to me: Although many authors have described such influence (particularly of Reconstructionism),full adherents to Reconstructionism are few and marginalized among conservative Christians.
So there is my proof that this is what I meant.
I am also not an atheist. I believe there are things we can't possibly understand with our puny restricted human brains. I respect the personal choices of individuals -- I would never argue someone out of their personal experience of the divine.
What I don't like is when someone uses their personal experience as an excuse to control others, to define "morality" for others. This guy. Mormons working tirelessly on Prop 8. Parents trying to keep any mention of homosexuality out of schools, which perpetuates the bullying and the shaming.
And I believe that when atheists attack someone's belief as irrational, it is no different than a Christian attempting to force their worldview on the atheist. I think atheists take their justifiable anger at Christians attempting to -- and succeeding at -- controlling others through shame, laws, wars and go too far with it -- I don't believe it is necessary to talk someone out of their personal religious experience, IF IF IF that personal religious experience isn't affecting the atheist in any way. I think atheists need to learn to let folks be, and focus on facts -- overturning Prop 8, booting fundamentalist School Board members out.
Them there's my two cents. Sorry you have felt beat up here. The Sift is a great place, with some really really REALLY smart and funny people. Including some, in my opinion, angry atheists. It is part of the Sift's charm, if you can treat it like entertainment.
>> ^shinyblurry:
>> ^quantumushroom:
From that link:

LGBT Activists in Uganda point to a virulently anti-gay March 2009 conference 2009 put on by three American Evangelical activists for inciting the latest round of violence and intimidation against the local LGBT community. Among the three were Holocaust revisionist Scott Lively, Exodus International board member Don Schmierer, and International Healing Foundation’s Caleb Lee Brundidge, who is a protege of ex-gay advocate Richard Cohen. Lively, who blamed gay men for the rise of Nazism and the Rwandan genocide, proudly declared his talk as being a “nuclear bomb” against LGBT advocacy in Africa. (You can read about all of the events of 2009 and early 2010 here.)

So atheists have no problem using these fringe kooks as representatives of true Christendom, but get insulted when it's pointed out 20th century mass murderers were all leaders of communist regimes? Death toll: 100 million and counting

The whole thread was created under that presumption. "I am flabbergasted. I keep thinking they can't go any more off the deep end." They as in all Christians. As in all Christians are kooks. I don't know if this site is just pro-atheist but there is a definite undertone of intolerance and bigotry here against Christians. What happened to civil discourse? Oh yeah, this is the internet. Nevermind.



That's cool.. thanks for enlightening me here. I didn't mean to cast aspersions but I guess that shows how easy it can be to misinterpet peoples intentions/beliefs, which really underscores your point I think. I wouldn't say I feel beat up, just that there seemed to be a tone here. I'll go with your assesment for now.

Personally, I don't tell people what to believe. That is what free will is for. It's up to them to draw their own conclusions. If someone asks, I will answer. If someone is mistating, I will correct. Other than that, to each his own. I will speak the truth as I know it, and hopefully someone will listen, but that's as far as I go. If you try to force something on someone, it just pushes them farther away.

bamdrewsays...

Analogies about eliminating cancer (@2min) when you're talking about the power of God... hmmm...

I was under the impression that human's fight cancer. Ignorant, selfish, 'fallen' humans, fighting against God's will that their own bodies turn against them.


... but I guess you can argue that God has just recently gotten around to giving us people who create treatments to fight cancer... thats a catch22 there.

kceaton1says...

Anyway, the point I was making at the end is that God has not stopped me from typing my little ditty, because He can't or "does not have that power" so he gives us "Free Will". But, to give me free will in any classical sense means you must deny yourself from action whether you can use it or not...

So he isn't omnipotent. His prescient abilities seem off, again as this post is making it through.

My post is but a window with a shade. If you don't like whats behind the shade, I suggest a change in scenery.

Stormsingersays...

>> ^kceaton1:

Anyway, the point I was making at the end is that God has not stopped me from typing my little ditty, because He can't or "does not have that power" so he gives us "Free Will". But, to give me free will in any classical sense means you must deny yourself from action whether you can use it or not...
So he isn't omnipotent. His prescient abilities seem off, again as this post is making it through.
My post is but a window with a shade. If you don't like whats behind the shade, I suggest a change in scenery.


I'll chime in to point out the biggest flaw in the Christian idea that God is both omniscient and omnipotent...you cannot be both without bearing responsibility for every single thing that happens. This is doubly so when you supposedly created every single thing that exists.

If you do so knowing what the outcome would be (which you did, being omniscient), and still refused to make things better (which you could, being omnipotent), but then decide to place the blame on your creations (for doing precisely what you created them to do and knew they would do)...I can think of no other words for that behavior than "evil" or "psychotic".

kceaton1says...

>> ^Stormsinger:

>> ^kceaton1:
Anyway, the point I was making at the end is that God has not stopped me from typing my little ditty, because He can't or "does not have that power" so he gives us "Free Will". But, to give me free will in any classical sense means you must deny yourself from action whether you can use it or not...
So he isn't omnipotent. His prescient abilities seem off, again as this post is making it through.
My post is but a window with a shade. If you don't like whats behind the shade, I suggest a change in scenery.

I'll chime in to point out the biggest flaw in the Christian idea that God is both omniscient and omnipotent...you cannot be both without bearing responsibility for every single thing that happens. This is doubly so when you supposedly created every single thing that exists.
If you do so knowing what the outcome would be (which you did, being omniscient), and still refused to make things better (which you could, being omnipotent), but then decide to place the blame on your creations (for doing precisely what you created them to do and knew they would do)...I can think of no other words for that behavior than "evil" or "psychotic".


Thank you. That would be my point. Plus, it'd be nice to know what rules he's making; the rules or laws being: good and evil. Both are very contrived definitions and even in the course of the bible the definition changes (which was once a strong point in my understanding of God and being Mormon; you would need a prophet or relay to update "the rules" as time changes, otherwise "the works" would be forever outdated).

But, more to the point on a very simple design layer. What rules in Gods world (this was one I couldn't counter in my Mormon days) are below or above God. Good and Evil seem to be at a priority level above God, as they are "obvious". But, if God made them and controls them that negates ANY reason to have them in the first place, because as I said before they would be contrived values. Which would force me "morally" to not follow God as he seems to blame people on some sort of whimsical basis (Isiah is full of it, for the religious; the old testament is a living breathing example of this in action--constantly). As you said it seems he's schizoid or sociopathic, or both (could have multiple personality disorder, which explains A LOT). On the believing side and from a "Devil's Advocates" view; God seems to have possibly "made up" the Devil. There is very little information on the Devil and Hell. The one reference we have to punishment in Hell talks of burning lakes. The devil himself is almost never described, or attributed; the same as Hell. There's half as much information about the "bad guy" as their is about Jesus. We never even get a quote for or from him, post angelic contributions.

Anyway if evil is a "given" value, even as simple as: doing the opposite of what God wants. That means evil and good are laws on a level above God's control, although he can manipulate it. That shows that even on a fundamental "physics" or "architecture" setup, there are things that are already more powerful than him (such as *any* law that runs heaven, hell, Earth, God's "nature" (if you can describe it or he can, then it already shows that language is at a higher level as it cannot be communicated otherwise).

Anyway, none of this is factual proof, but a lot of these type of things should be sufficient enough to put the whole idea or question of God of to the side for this life. It should also make you realize that even if you run into a God later on, you should still question ALWAYS; or least you may follow the Devil...

shinyblurrysays...


Thank you. That would be my point. Plus, it'd be nice to know what rules he's making; the rules or laws being: good and evil. Both are very contrived definitions and even in the course of the bible the definition changes (which was once a strong point in my understanding of God and being Mormon; you would need a prophet or relay to update "the rules" as time changes, otherwise "the works" would be forever outdated).
But, more to the point on a very simple design layer. What rules in Gods world (this was one I couldn't counter in my Mormon days) are below or above God. Good and Evil seem to be at a priority level above God, as they are "obvious". But, if God made them and controls them that negates ANY reason to have them in the first place, because as I said before they would be contrived values. Which would force me "morally" to not follow God as he seems to blame people on some sort of whimsical basis (Isiah is full of it, for the religious; the old testament is a living breathing example of this in action--constantly). As you said it seems he's schizoid or sociopathic, or both (could have multiple personality disorder, which explains A LOT). On the believing side and from a "Devil's Advocates" view; God seems to have possibly "made up" the Devil. There is very little information on the Devil and Hell. The one reference we have to punishment in Hell talks of burning lakes. The devil himself is almost never described, or attributed; the same as Hell. There's half as much information about the "bad guy" as their is about Jesus. We never even get a quote for or from him, post angelic contributions.
Anyway if evil is a "given" value, even as simple as: doing the opposite of what God wants. That means evil and good are laws on a level above God's control, although he can manipulate it. That shows that even on a fundamental "physics" or "architecture" setup, there are things that are already more powerful than him (such as any law that runs heaven, hell, Earth, God's "nature" (if you can describe it or he can, then it already shows that language is at a higher level as it cannot be communicated otherwise).
Anyway, none of this is factual proof, but a lot of these type of things should be sufficient enough to put the whole idea or question of God of to the side for this life. It should also make you realize that even if you run into a God later on, you should still question ALWAYS; or least you may follow the Devil...


Okay, well, in our ealier discourse I was wondering what bible you were reading since you didn't seem to understand the fundementals. Now, I know..you were reading the mormon bible. Try reading the New Testament sometime, because everything you're talking about is covered there.

First, good and evil are not rules which God is constrained by. They are not some sort of higher (higher than God) principle that dictates Gods behavior. There isn't anything above God. He is the uncaused cause, the eternal cause. There is no one that is a God to Him. He created everything, and not a thing exists that was not made by His will. Good comes from God. The bible says that every good gift is from above, from the Father of Lights. There is no other model or conception of what good is except what God is. The bible says there is no one good, not one. Meaning that all fall short of Gods grace, that all are sinners. Being perfect, nothing could be added to God to make Him more perfect. So, He is the ultimate good of all things. If God did not exist, there would be no such thing as good.

You say you're not sure about what rules we're supposed to live by. Well, we don't need an update for that one. God already told us what rules we should by when He gave us the Ten Commandments. Now, there is a question about the Sabbath, how Christians should observe it, but it still applies. The rules are His law. Being a moral and just God, He created rules which would lead to living a moral life. God Himself is not under His own law, and only sinners would need a law in the first place. There was no law before the fall. Evil is committing a sin. Sinning is defying Gods will.

Now you say there is nothing direct about Devil in the bible. Untrue. The Devil speaks for himself several times in both the Old and the New Testaments. That is why I suggested you read at least the NT. I don't know what is in the Mormon bible but I can assure you that as far as this matter is concerned, it is wholly inaccurate. Now, I also see you accusing God of being evil, or crazy or both. I think, if you have any respect left for God, that you should choose your words with more care. It says in the bible we will account for every idle word that we speak. Do you want to have to explain why you said these things about God to His face? I know I wouldn't..

kceaton1says...

@shinyblurry

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you have no idea what "Mormon bible" really means. Since I don't believe in that one or the one with extra action with angels or the one with unicorns or the one with "x^n"... There are A LOT of bibles. Which church is the TRUE church; please enlighten me so I may rip that ONE to shreds. I'm sorry that my "Christianity"™ is not good enough for you.

As to the rest... Go ahead and link every direct observation about the Devil and Hell. It's different in each bible as well. Keep going I can't dig a grave any faster than you are already. BTW, the "Ten Commandments" are old school. So do you follow the New Testament or do you pick and choose what to like when it suites you.

I looked at my religion and others discretely and with observation and found the contradictory fallacies, logical arguments that fail, and the diversity of books, translations, and the number of religions to be enough to stop "divinity" in it's tracks for me.

You've yet to show me any logical reason to follow, somewhere I messed up, or otherwise. You are purely on the defensive. If I may say so, you need to take a hard look at religion is giving you. What would happen if you shut it down, for argument's sake? Would your life, your actions dramatically shift? All I have seen, for now, is by rote memorization quotes or otherwise I learned in seminary or Sunday school. Some of it is different of course, but I guarantee that the majority is the same.

Do you think all people that have chosen to forgo there faith and live a moral life without the fear of an afterlife reprisal all did so because they're Mormon? The only commonality we share is that we chose to question those in authority and piece things together ourselves; as we've been all lied to, which was the best reason to question in the first place.

This will be the last of my responses as I think it is on your shoulders now to logically come to your own conclusion; if you think faith/belief are the only key factors then why preach, as you will never be able to open any eyes with platitudes. If you try to defend again you will only repeat what you've already said.

bareboards2says...

@kceaton1 Why are you trying to argue this person out of their faith? To paraphrase you, you will never be able to open any eyes with logic.

It isn't about logic. You know that.

It feels good to talk about what you know, though, right? Well, that is what @shinyblurry is doing,too.

I suspect that each of you hopes that something you are saying will land on fertile soil and take root. I predict that won't happen in this case. shinyblurry used to be a non-believer and kceaton1 used to be a believer, and you both have switched. You both know what the other side is like, and you have rejected it as not working for you.

No amount of logic or threats of hell are going to work to move you guys.

People follow the paths that work for them personally. As long as those paths aren't forced on anyone else, I'm cool with it. Unfortunately, us non-fundamentalist religious folks have a lot of work to do, protecting our laws and our schools from having someone else's morality foisted on the public at large. I think that is why kceaton fights you so hard, shinyblurry -- much has been foisted in his/her lifetime. Leaving the Mormon church is particularly difficult, depending on your parents. And kceaton is understandably pissed. Understandably. UNDERSTANDABLY.

I may be wrong, of course, but this is what I see going on in this thread. It is always a bad idea to ascribe motivations to folks without talking to them about it. I accept that I may be completely off base here.

shinyblurrysays...

>> ^kceaton1:I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you have no idea what "Mormon bible" really means. Since I don't believe in that one or the one with extra action with angels or the one with unicorns or the one with "x^n"... There are A LOT of bibles. Which church is the TRUE church; please enlighten me so I may rip that ONE to shreds. I'm sorry that my "Christianity"™ is not good enough for you.
As to the rest... Go ahead and link every direct observation about the Devil and Hell. It's different in each bible as well. Keep going I can't dig a grave any faster than you are already. BTW, the "Ten Commandments" are old school. So do you follow the New Testament or do you pick and choose what to like when it suites you.
I looked at my religion and others discretely and with observation and found the contradictory fallacies, logical arguments that fail, and the diversity of books, translations, and the number of religions to be enough to stop "divinity" in it's tracks for me.
You've yet to show me any logical reason to follow, somewhere I messed up, or otherwise. You are purely on the defensive. If I may say so, you need to take a hard look at religion is giving you. What would happen if you shut it down, for argument's sake? Would your life, your actions dramatically shift? All I have seen, for now, is by rote memorization quotes or otherwise I learned in seminary or Sunday school. Some of it is different of course, but I guarantee that the majority is the same.
Do you think all people that have chosen to forgo there faith and live a moral life without the fear of an afterlife reprisal all did so because they're Mormon? The only commonality we share is that we chose to question those in authority and piece things together ourselves; as we've been all lied to, which was the best reason to question in the first place.
This will be the last of my responses as I think it is on your shoulders now to logically come to your own conclusion; if you think faith/belief are the only key factors then why preach, as you will never be able to open any eyes with platitudes. If you try to defend again you will only repeat what you've already said.



Whoa there little fella. First of all, you've been asking elementry questions about the nature of God, which presupposes in our discussion that He does in fact exist. All I did was try to answer them. You gave the impression that perhaps you believed in *something*. Which Church is the true church? That would be the Body of Christ my friend. There is no institution which has exclusive rights on Christianity. This is the first fallacy of the Mormon church who has the believe they are the only true church, otherwise their "updates" would be exposed for the fraud they are.

Second, what is this that I don't understand what the Mormon bible means? Isn't that the book of Mormon? What am I not understanding? Jump to conclusions much? The true bible is the one the disciples of Christ wrote, which is the New Testament. There have been many different translations, but essentially they all say pretty much the same thing with the same quotes. The major ones which differ are funnily enough, the Mormon version and the Jehovah Witness version. These cults both started up within the last 200 years and pervert the teachings of Christ to their core. They both deny Christs divinity, with the JWs claiming Jesus was an angel, and the mormons claiming Jesus was the first creature, but not divine. As we know from the bible, anything which denies the divinity of Christ is in the spirit of the antichrist. Meaning, Mormonism by definition is a satanic religion. Worshipping the God of Mormonism is the same as worshipping Satan.

Third, you should really do some real research and gain some understanding before you just go off the cuff. The Old Testament is the original bible, in which is the wisdom of the Lord, and the prophecies which predict the coming of Christ. Christ was a jew. The Old Tesament was His bible, and also the bible of the early disciples. It isn't a matter of picking and choosing. A true Christian believes in both. Christ told us that the ten commandments are still valid, and that he was not there to overthrow the law, but to fulfill it.

Look, I'm sorry you had to grow up Mormon, but I can tell you that your upbringing didn't prepare you for this conversation. You don't seem to know even elementry conceptions about who God is, and what the bible says. For you to just turn your vitriol on me, someone who tried to answer your questions, shows your profound lack of maturity. You're going way out of your way to be as callous and insulting about it as possible. And regards to your purile question, I know what it's like to live without faith. Unlike you, I wasn't indoctrinated; for most of my life I was agnostic. I came to God independently, without religion. From there I followed God to Christianity. If you want to talk about shredding something, I think it should be your bad attitude problem. Good luck and God Bless.

shinyblurrysays...

@kceaton1 Why are you trying to argue this person out of their faith? To paraphrase you, you will never be able to open any eyes with logic.
It isn't about logic. You know that.
It feels good to talk about what you know, though, right? Well, that is what shinyblurry is doing,too.
I suspect that each of you hopes that something you are saying will land on fertile soil and take root. I predict that won't happen in this case. shinyblurry used to be a non-believer and kceaton1 used to be a believer, and you both have switched. You both know what the other side is like, and you have rejected it as not working for you.
No amount of logic or threats of hell are going to work to move you guys.
People follow the paths that work for them personally. As long as those paths aren't forced on anyone else, I'm cool with it. Unfortunately, us non-fundamentalist religious folks have a lot of work to do, protecting our laws and our schools from having someone else's morality foisted on the public at large. I think that is why kceaton fights you so hard, shinyblurry -- much has been foisted in his/her lifetime. Leaving the Mormon church is particularly difficult, depending on your parents. And kceaton is understandably pissed. Understandably. UNDERSTANDABLY.
I may be wrong, of course, but this is what I see going on in this thread. It is always a bad idea to ascribe motivations to folks without talking to them about it. I accept that I may be completely off base here.



Hey thanks for a voice of reason. I've been operating under the presumption, based on the things which kcreaton said, that he had *some* faith. Apparently not. I was just trying to answer some of the misunderstandings he seems to have about Christianity, and when you grow up Mormon you're bound to have a few. Well, apparently this conversation isn't bearing much fruit. You're right in that kcreaton has a lot to be upset about. I feel bad for anyone who has to grow up Mormon. Personally, I think the entire "religion" is just a justification for polygamy.

Anyhow, I think your assessment is fairly accurate. if he wants to be civil and converse like real people instead of rabid animals, I'll be here. TTFN

kceaton1says...

All I wanted was a choice: logic or belief/faith. Do I feel the need to upend my fellow man (gay person), because I'm supposed to. I'm also not supposed to do anything to them. Yet believers use both sides as they wish when they need it or think it's needed, right?

I ask for little, proof. Proof of work and entropy. Like a plane flying in the sky. Practical, applicable, proof...

@bareboards2 is trying to calm things down, which is fine. I'm still trying to figure out why you keep ascribing to this notion that the Mormons are somehow "obviously" wrong, were as all the others are just fine. You speak of the "body of Christ", as though THAT is enough to have a religion. But, the guy sticks around for a few chapters and then is gone for the rest of time. Even Leonardo da Vinci has a longer history. If not for the Dark Ages we may have quite a few other people with history, but the books were burned by somebody.

I ask for nothing less than concrete evidence, because my fellow mans life may depend on it. I will listen to no others no matter there position unless they can agree to the same thing. This goes for all comments I read.

P.S.- I don't have a vendetta for the Mormon church (except maybe Glenn Beck) as it made me who I am. I assure you that the fog is just as thick on your side of the river; it's great to get a perspective that is free and only contains your observations.

Second, @bareboards2. Why would you think I'm arguing them out of their faith, only they can do that. Two, why do you allow him/her to wrangle others into religion. Same coin?

Lastly, I have a great conception of a "Christian" God, but I did decide not to impart my full knowledge less my posts become a thesis for a doctorate of the histories. The last thing I ask is that you shift your world view and ascribe to something that is not Christian (outright, just for a few months); make yourself uncomfortable. It's the best way to learn.

P.S.S.- That's it, I swear! There are only three people reading this anyway.

smoomansays...

>> ^honkeytonk73:

The middle east was once a center for science and knowledge. A cradle of knowledge that we owe MUCH to. Then the fundies gained in power. Now the middle east is in the technological and social outhouse with a grim outlook indeed. The US at this point can go either way. Go fundie and return to the middle ages, or come to it's senses and realize this mythology shit isn't the path to follow if society and science wants to evolve into something better for all mankind.


the decline and current state of the middle east has little to nothing to do with religion and practically everything to do with the Golden Horde, particularly the siege of baghdad in 1258. but we gotta demonize something right? religion it is

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