Where's Trump saying "I can do anything I want to women, just walk up and grab them by the pussy." then continuing with 90 seconds of him publicly degrading women (and men)? They could have made the exact same commercial using just him...is this the best a man can be?....because that's what's expected from a president, exemplar in chief, not cautionary tale and horrid example of a human.

It's not about Trump.

This is about changing the course of men who have been following an outdated map.

It is about blaming things on something someone made up called 'toxic masculinity'. Please explain to me why we have so many 'issues' with it here in the USA when there are countries like Spain and others where it is considered OK to be masculine?

I feel we can narrow it down to one simple factor, a collegiate system in which we are now taught that everything white is bad, everything male is bad, and everything conservative is bad. There is no backlash on this because if you complain, YOU ARE THE TOXIC PERSON!

Let me give you an example and bear in mind that I think Trump may be the worst president we have had. Jim Carrey, who is notably liberal and PC (lately anyway) created a painting comparing people who voted for Trump to apes. A de-evolution artwork. Hardly a peep from anyone, but if you compared other groups to apes you would be branded a racist and more. It's perfectly fine to take potshots at anything liberal people consider to be bad, but god help you if you do it to something they care about.

tl;dr I think it is a stupid fucking commercial that they put out to increase sales with Proctor & Gambles female slanted brands. They might lose a few razor related sales, but there are a shitload of white knights out there that will fall in line to argue that men are just assholes and should be beaten down to accept their new role. Since I use an old fashioned safety razor from Merkur, I can't boycott them, but I would if I could.

Not by intent, but as the model for America's youth of the best known and most successful person that constantly and clearly exemplifies every bad behavior mentioned to a ridiculous extreme, publicly and proudly, and worse is rewarded for it by his base, it is somewhat about him, intentionally or not.

Trump, our "leader", is following that outdated map and dragging the country along the path. It's hard to get people to change course when the leader keeps driving them farther down the wrong trail.

The point is if it's targeting men who behave badly, or ALL men. Pointed out the section of the commercial in another thread:

"It's been going on far too long... Making the same old excuses"
Entire line of men ALL chanting boys will be boys
"But something finally changed...And there will be no going back"

The most straight forward interpretation here is that the problem lies with ALL men. It's in fact tricky to interpret " something finally changed" and "no going back" to at the least be an indictment of MOST men, baring the brave heroic minority that are finally taking a stand.

IMO, that's not how you get people to change, that's how you make them defensive and get them to dig in their heels.

I think if you asked the average woman in Spain, they would say aggressive machismo and misogyny aren't attractive features of masculinity, and they would prefer to be treated as equals by strong men rather than objects by insecure men....but that's just my guess....I haven't polled them.

Funny thing about anger. It generates energy. Pure unadulterated energy. Much like a nuclear reactor. It can be somewhat of a gift. Anyone can do anything they desire with that energy. What a person chooses to do with that power can strengthen them and others or destroy them and others.

Don't let Trump destroy you.

I'm content that his toxicity has energised people to work against misogyny, sex abuse, and bullying, I just hope they're more influential than he is and don't take a toxic turn themselves.
It's easy to become what you despise in one's fight against injustices.

Perfect! Level UP!

Lets tun boys into boys, not men.

Liberals want a Soyboy Nation of men.
Shame on Gillette for this ad.

So you like real men? No shame in that.

We become what we fear.

Or, as wise man once said, "It's easy to become what you despise in one's fight against injustices."

Try to not confuse restraint with weakness.

BTW, Great metaphor. Wish I'd said that.

Nailed it. But, what you gonna do?

You could get the Gillette Assisted Shaving Razor for men who are helpless.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjjhcdcBkK4

haha

Damn it, why isn't this show on anywhere? I loved Kung Fu, and we could really use some of the lessons it tried to teach right about now.

Yeah, heaven forfend we end up with a generation of men who think women deserve respect or that violence is a last resort.

That’d be a fucking nightmare.

Toxic masculinity is absolutely a thing, and it harms men as much as women.

But it’s called “toxic” masculinity for a reason. If I said “shit this toxic water is killing us”, would you think I was implying that ALL water is toxic? Of course not. There’s nothing wrong with masculinity or masculine behaviour. But when you define aggressive, predatory behaviour as “masculine” then of course all masculinity is bad. But the problem isn’t masculinity, it’s your fucked up definiton of it. Hence the differentiator “toxic”.

TL;DR don’t be an asshole and no one will bother you for just being a man.

And who better illustrates that than Pee Wee?

https://videosift.com/video/Pee-Wee-Herman-Dance-Tequila

Bikers like to cause CHAOS which is why they park their ENGINEs like that.

If someone gets defensive, then a change HAS taken place.

What do you have that's worth defending?

I was raised to respect other people, regardless of race, gender, creed or religion. I was taught that it was right to not give differential treatment to others because of race and gender, and to reserve differential treatment for other people facing differential circumstance, ability or behaviour. I believe in these as important fundamental values, and I consider those values worth defending.

When I see somebody painting an entire race or gender as the 'same' and as a problem, I get defensive of them. Here's how the commercial portrays men:
"It's been going on far too long... Making the same old excuses"
Entire line of men ALL chanting boys will be boys
"But something finally changed...And there will be no going back"

That isn't just a statement against bad behavior of men, it's a statement that ALL men have been participating in or excusing the bad behavior. At best, the message is urging men as needing to take an especial roll in rooting out violent and sexual harassment. That's identical to the logic of urging menmuslims as needing to take an especial roll in rooting out terrorismviolent and sexual harassment. Albeit, arguably worse in that your religion is at least a choice(trigger non-binary proponents).

So now that you have declared what is valuable to you, what are you going to do about it?

Thank you. Thank you. I put a good 15 minutes into getting that right. Thank you.

First and foremost I live by it and raise my kids to do the same. Next is to encourage those in my community to do the same. Finally, if I see public declarations against it like comments seen here and this video, I'll take a second or two to call that out as well and least leave a voice out there calling people to stop judging each other by what team they're on over(grammar edit) what they are like.

Wouldn't you have to judge people in order to get your message them?

How important is forgiveness in your life?

It's great that you're raising your kids to be respectful of others.

But I don't understand the "judging" comment. Are you saying I shouldn't judge people for violent behaviour or harassment?

And yes, it is akin to saying Muslims should condemn violent behaviour done in the name of their religion (and to be clear, most Muslims DO condemn that behaviour).

I don't think this ad portrays all men as abusers, but it does portray all men as complicit by not speaking out, and I agree with that. We haven't done enough and it is our responsibility. "If you see something, say something" would do far more good in calling out shitty behaviour to other people than in the tiny % of terrorist acts.

I never did agree with that slogan/mindset being usurped by the anti terrorism league. It applies across the board.

Gillette just lost a customer.

They’re a $43 billion company. But I’m sure they’ll really miss your $20

I'm not sure that all of Spain considers it ok to be as "masculine" as some proportion of Spanish men (but not all) think they should be.

I mean--what could be more masculine than the running of the bulls in Pamplona, Spain? Hemingway, the famously macho writer, literally wrote about it.

But--when a WhatsApp group calling themselves the "Wolfpack" harassed and raped an 18 year old girl there in 2016--and received a "sexual assault" but not a rape conviction for their actions---the lighter sentence was not well received. The guys think they they should appeal to go free; the other half of the country is outraged.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/05/spain-court-upholds-wolf-pack-verdict-of-sexual-abuse-rather-than-rape-pamplona


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43915551

I think 'real men' know who they are, and aren't nearly as easily offended.

Gillette is betting on the theory that they will gain far more new customers than they lose over this.....just like Nike using Kaepernick. It worked for Nike despite the over the top vocal outrage and videos of burning $500 sneakers, I think Gillette expects similar results.

Hell, I might go replace my mach3 that I’ve had for nearly 20 years. Because clearly I need five fucking blades

@BSR

I guess even with my edit my last sentence was unclear. I’ll try and straighten that out, I meant to say I want people to stop judging each other by race, gender or any other ‘team’ membership mentality.
Judging people based upon unalterable traits like race and gender is wrong.
Judging people based upon identity with a religion, polticial party our other group, generally bad still and better to look at individual opinions. Some leeway obviously as there is an element of choice too so if your anti-vax, yeah I’ve fot some opinoons on some of your life choices.
Judging people based ipon their behaviours and choices, this is fundamental and necessary. We should err on kindness to one another, but that includes judging cruel and violent people and protecting their victims.

As relates to this commercial, it clearly generalizes most(arguably all) men as complicit with the peoblem. Thats wrong!

I don't see it as wrong. I see it as a strategy created by caring, loving, intelligent and brave people. I think you may feel attacked and accused by this ad. You don't want people looking at you and falsely judging you as scum on the basis of this ad.

I'm not sure you have faith in your foundation.

IYou don't want people looking at anyoneyou and falsely judging themyou as scum on the basis of their genderthis ad.

The ad is just a big yawn for me. The symptom of people still using generalizations and stereotypes to classify a group of people and saying it's "caring, loving, intelligent and brave" is repulsive to me, and needs to be called out. That doesn't hold ONLY when it's blacks, mexicans, muslims or women being targeted but yes, even if it's whites or men.

I'm sure they will gain more overall customers because they are owned by Proctor & Gamble. As I mentioned originally, there will be plenty of women and white knights who jump at the chance to support a company who decided to tag along onto the #metoo movement.

To me, that is part of the reason why I dislike this commercial so much. Not just because of it's huge and sweeping generalizations (practically every scene has one), but because their ad department had to know that an edgy commercial would do the same thing for them as it did for Nike. Does anyone think that the majority of actual corporate level people at Gillette/P&G give two fucks about #metoo? I know I don't.

It's just an ad targeted at a huge group of people that are easy to take potshots at currently. I find it little different than attack ads run by fucktards that want to condemn all Muslims for the act of terrorists or fundamentalist jihadists. The most screwed up thing about that analogy is that, realistically, there are largish groups of Islamic people that actually will cheer and throw celebrations when there is a terrorist attack. Yet you would be hard put to find large swaths of men out in the streets cheering on the effects of so called Toxic Masculinity.

Yes, we as men need to speak out. We need to support the evolution of mankind away from barbarism. But we don't need to succumb to propaganda that tries to purport that a man seeing a pretty lady walk past shouldn't attempt to say hi or introduce himself to her because that is bad. This ad, with one of the sweeping generalizations I mentioned earlier, would have you think that it is HORRIBLE for a man to do that and that a 'responsible' man would body check that guy. Because men should never try to meet women, only remain passive and allow the woman to come to them. I say fuck that, it is wrong to catcall women, but there is nothing wrong with going up and saying hi. This ad (and some other internet videos) would have you think it's the equivalent of throwing the lady down in the middle of a crowded walkway and having your way with her.

The ad could have been better, there were moments like the Terry Crews scene that I agree with, but they took the easy way out and just slammed men in general.

Nothing but Soyboys at the Sift.

I think 'real men' know who they are, and aren't nearly as easily offended.

As stated before. Guess that kind of explains you though doesn't it.

Every now and then, bob, you make something resembling a coherent argument for your position.

But most of the time it’s trolling like this that makes me instantly dismiss anything you have to say because you state it so childishly.

Look at @Mordhaus. I don’t agree with him on this issue, but I respect his opinion because he’s making a decent argument.

I believe you can be better. Maybe you should buy a Gillette razor?

Welcome my son, welcome to the machine
Where have you been?
It's alright we know where you've been
You've been in the pipeline, filling in time
Provided with toys and 'scouting for boys'
You brought a guitar to punish your ma
And you didn't like school, and you
Know you're nobody's fool
So welcome to the machine
Welcome my son, welcome to the machine
What did you dream?
It's alright we told you what to dream
You dreamed of a big star
He played a mean guitar
He always ate in the Steak Bar
He loved to drive in his Jaguar
So welcome to the machine

Soyboy?

Like, the tofu brand?

I don't think this ad IS a big yawn for you. It looks to me like you have some pretty passionate feelings about it. That's a good thing. But I also think your passion would be better spent and be more effective in accomplishing your goal if it was harnessed and controlled.

A lot of the work has already been done for you. All you have to do is join the chorus. I think you'll come to find that you have some very powerful people on your side.

BTW, how do you do that strikethrough thing in your text?

I have strong feelings on how people should treat each other. The blast of comments(some your own included) declaring that it's absurd for people to dislike the profiling of most men as violent and sexually abusive, or making excuses for same, are what I am calling out for the sexism that it is.

As for joining the chorus, that's kind of exactly the opposite of what I've been trying to communicate. Picking teams and setting yourself on team man/woman or white/black or straight/gay or dem/rep is one of the awful trends in society today. I want to get away from that thank you very much. I don't have the attributation for the quote but I'd pass you this as advice:
"When you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"

For strikeout you can use the html 'strike' tag, never knew before this thread or not if it worked on the sift either.

The sad thing is, I cringe every time bob seems to be on the same side as me because inevitably he will post something that makes everything I say seem worthless due to the stupidity of his comment.

I already know that. Do you realize who you are up against?

I recommend Gillette’s New Assisted Shaving Razor

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjjhcdcBkK4

You prove my point a fellow sifter is in the Soyboy camp.

Turning boys into weak men is NOT a good thing. Not anywhere in the world.

When the average woman can change a tire or brakes on the car, then maybe then Ill teach my son to be less of a man.

You desire men to be weak and woman to be strong. This thinking just weakens the society.

Strong back, weak mind. Is that your final answer?

I'm sure your son will do just fine lugging around all of your fears you've put into him.

Changing a tire and putting brakes on a car is sooooo much tougher than giving birth.

Thanks bob. I thought you might come back with an actual argument, but instead you went out of your way to not only prove my point, but to demonstrate
a) how bad you are at debating
b) exactly why this ad is needed and
c) how utterly warped your worldview is.

As for the rest of your rambling screed, it’s so full of nonsense, inaccuracies and fear that there really isn’t any value in addressing it.

When I was a kid, I was like you are now.

I was showing off, thinking I was impressing the kids around me. After a short while a girl came up to me. Her name was Sandy. She looked me right in the eye and said to me, "You think you're strong?"

She then spit on the ground and said, "Pick that up."

That's when I learned about tough women. If you don't see the strength in that, grow up.

I don't understand the mentality that respect equals weakness.

I'm also curious as to whether mechanical skill makes someone more manly. Where do I find the list that ranks manly activities? How do I figure out my manliness quotient and what is the threshold for turning into a soyboy? Is it reversible by eating some red meat or watching rambo?

I would think fishing would be manly but where does fly fishing stand? Surely all that swishing and fucking about is classic soyboyism? May as well be doing rhythmic gymnastics. Does eating a fish caught when fly fishing negate the method of fishing used?

So many questions, why didn't they teach me this in school!?

I don't know for sure, but I hear they do teach respect and manliness in prisons.

I also think respect is taught in the home. Something as simple as respecting those who can kick your ass because those people are always right. And if you buck that logic you get sent off to military school to be regimented.