Imagine sitting down to a conversation with either of them - I couldn't keep up for quids.

I could keep up easily, i just don't know the popular phrases for the ideas they're presenting, because i figured them all out by myself or through deduction of other things i'd heard/worked out. So it'd take a lot longer to demonstrate the same point

This is also a brilliant demonstration of the confusion that i feel when i stumble across some of the arguments i read on here, and mostly whenever i read QM's posts. He's the epitomy of this, he believes in things without putting them to the test, and will almost violently defend his belief and his right to that belief, yet never test it.

However, if videosift is an aggregate for the american population, i'd say there is a gathering feeling towards the 'british' way of thinking (as this video states it, not as i lay claim to it). There's intellectual progress being made on this website, definitely (as in more and more converts). Let's hope it reflects on the whole.

A nice protestant free-for-all. Capitalist to the core.
Your greatest gift, Stephen, was and for ever shall be poetry. It's amazing that such a boringly imperialistic, and philosophically lukewarm people (except Hume and Hobbes) could produce the likes of... well the list is too long (but beats any other nation in Europe)

The citizenry having their own nukes would be totally impractical... the framers of the constitution were probably thinking more along the lines of bunker-busters.

>> ^bluecliff:
A nice protestant free-for-all. Capitalist to the core.
Your greatest gift, Stephen, was and for ever shall be poetry. It's amazing that such a boringly imperialistic, and philosophically lukewarm people (except Hume and Hobbes) could produce the likes of... well the list is too long (but beats any other nation in Europe)


The UK is about as imperialist as it is religious. The United States has more resemblance to our Red Coat past than GB does now. Always seemed like a bizarre irony that the Founding Fathers might be more at home in modern day Britain.

I think the "Intelligentsia" are a much more dominant class in the UK which may stem from the relatively high proportion of people going through higher education and University. As a result our nation is characterised by sceptics and cynics. We export them to be judges on Talent Shows, everybody needs at least one Brit on their panel now. Our television is full of them too, mostly thanks to the leftist BBC, our comedians poke holes in every minutiae of society and politics, we must have THE monopoly on investigative journalism and Nature documentaries were invented by Attenborough. So yeah, we end up giving a lot of empirical minds with eloquent voices a spotlight while in other countries they struggle to be heard. Mythbusters had to disguise its scientific methodology in explosions.

Americans say "Elevator," English say "Lift." Americans say "Trunk," English say "Boot." Americans say "President," English say "Psychopathic Git."

I saw nightline I think it was the other day that had some very interesting points about Americans vs British on queueing. Wish I could find it somewhere and sift it.

Heres a link on part of the discussion.
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,24942674-5013016,00.html

Downvoted. False advertisement.

" ^ The UK is about as imperialist as it is religious. The United States has more resemblance to our Red Coat past than GB does now. Always seemed like a bizarre irony that the Founding Fathers might be more at home in modern day Britain."


imperialist? I thought that he was saying "empirical" and "empiricism", Not Imperialism , completley two different things. I think I'm right! ( its my nature and my downfall). I'm suprised at how far you guys can miss the whole point of what they are saying by being off by one word.

"Someone living in Oregon is an Oregonian, much more than they are an American, really"

Baseless and false. Very, very few Americans would identify themselves by their state before their country. The only people that may even come close may be Texans. And no, I not counting extreme minorities such as Alaskan secessionists and native Hawaiians.
*lies (if I could) for that comment alone

And then the blurb, "freedom of speech is a concept, justice is concrete"
Well that's about as subjective and biased a statement you can make, especially coming from an "empirical" culture. To me, freedom of speech is very well defined, written in law, and relatively non-malleable.

I believe "justice" is a relative concept. Ask someone who's been a victim or a criminal.

Downvote if I could

Invocations (lies) cannot be called by Wingoguy because Wingoguy is not privileged - sorry.

Gotta agree with Winoguy. Freedom of speech is vital for maintaining a just state, but still I don't know of any examples where it takes precedence over justice. Unless he means we feel more strongly about freedom of speech than justice, which is subjective of course.

Winoguy, you've never been to Texas, eh?

>> ^Wingoguy:
"Someone living in Oregon is an Oregonian, much more than they are an American, really"
Baseless and false. Very, very few Americans would identify themselves by their state before their country. The only people that may even come close may be Texans. And no, I not counting extreme minorities such as Alaskan secessionists and native Hawaiians.
lies (if I could) for that comment alone
And then the blurb, "freedom of speech is a concept, justice is concrete"
Well that's about as subjective and biased a statement you can make, especially coming from an "empirical" culture. To me, freedom of speech is very well defined, written in law, and relatively non-malleable.
I believe "justice" is a relative concept. Ask someone who's been a victim or a criminal.
Downvote if I could


Good points, but the way I see it, he did not say anything about people from Oregon willingly identifying themselves as Oregonians before saying they are Americans; just that due to the vast size and therefore variety of this country, an American can obviously identify themselves as American, but this idea of what makes one American is so vague, and constantly changing (even without taking into consideration the vast numbers of people from other cultures coming to the US to live permanently) than in reality they are more Oregonian or Floridian or Californian than they are 'American'

At least that is what I am getting from his statements.

Interesting.

1) There is some truth to an Oregonian being little or nothing like a New Yorker, or a New Mexican, or a Texan.

2) "England isn't classist" is a laughable statement; it is one of the most class-conscious places in the western world. A person's accent there alone has a lot to do with how that person is treated, viewed, and what is expected of them, much more so than in America since England is so small.

3) It's true that America doesn't seem to value justice very much, and though it may be a relative term, its pursuit is at the very heart of all the laws that we write and enforce.

And interesting chat. Would have been better if they were drunk (with me).

Rant: I really dislike geographical links to culture, although it's so widespread and popular that it's almost impossible to carry on a conversation without it. I dislike it because it inevitably says minorities within those geographical areas are not the "true" members of whatever area is being discussed. For example, American immigrants often declare white Americans to be "American", and everyone else to be black, Mexican, Chinese or whatever. So despite the fact that they too are Americans, they only see white people as American. Whites only make about 2/3 of the country nowadays, so to have 33% of the citizenry vanish into nothingness is just messed up. But it's extremely common to hear this kind of talk in every day conversation.

Example: "The Germans killed lots of Jews, gays and communists in WW2." Did they? Huge numbers of German Jews, gays and Communists were killed, but in common talk, it's "true" Germans, killing those "outsiders". "Americans are a very industrious, smart people." What about the ones who aren't? Are they less American, not American at all? I just don't see much benefit to this kind of thinking, but I can see massive negative consequences throughout history because of it.

So Dannym, you could keep up, it would just take you heaps longer... which is to say, you couldn't keep up. You know, a conversation requiring interaction and all that.

It would be interesting to see a similar kind of discussion from Mr. Fry *after* his American roadtrip, and how maybe his views have changed. Because as I understand it, this was done as a prelude to that trip, and is more or less armchair philosophy.

I'm always a bit skeptical when whole nations of people are attributed with certain.. attributes. Certainly Britain has its fair share of problems, and to say that it is classless is rather silly, and as one half of A Bit of Fry & Laurie, he probably knows that.

""Someone living in Oregon is an Oregonian, much more than they are an American, really"

Baseless and false. Very, very few Americans would identify themselves by their state before their country. The only people that may even come close may be Texans.""

I identify myself as a Minnesotan before I do a citizen of the US. (and not the crazy Michelle Bachman kind) I'm sad to say that I'm not proud of the religious and economic focus of this country. It's really an insane way to live that will come to a breaking point eventually. All religion is a curse on humanity and pure capitalism only rewards a lack of inherent morals. It's almost like Americans rely on religion so much because they view it as an antidote to the wrongs they know they commit on a daily basis.

I'm no different mind you, I work for a bank that I quite honestly don't trust. I'm just not trying to hide it; I will make sure my kids are aware of their full set of options so they don't get stuck like I did. (i.e. I'll attempt to make them multi-lingual, etc.)

I actually liked this video more than I thought I would; a lot of the us vs. them discussion regarding the US is focused on more form based stereotypes like obesity. While I can't defend that, it was nice to see these two attempt to be a bit more substantive.

>> ^csnel3:
" ^ The UK is about as imperialist as it is religious. The United States has more resemblance to our Red Coat past than GB does now. Always seemed like a bizarre irony that the Founding Fathers might be more at home in modern day Britain."

imperialist? I thought that he was saying "empirical" and "empiricism", Not Imperialism , completley two different things. I think I'm right! ( its my nature and my downfall). I'm suprised at how far you guys can miss the whole point of what they are saying by being off by one word.


I think it is you, not I, that needs to improve their comprehension. Please re-read my post and pay special attention to the person I was quoting. I am perfectly aware Fry was talking about empiricism, I would have thought the second part of my post demonstrated that well enough. I only mentioned our imperialist history to point out that it is just that, history, and as such actually has very little to do with modern day Britain.

I am surprised at how far you can miss the whole point of what I saying by being off by one word.

The thing about America is that it is a very geographically mobile society, with many of its citizens changing location so often that it is impossible for them to identify with a single state, let alone a town. Not to mention we are linked by a shared language and (until recently) a shared, monolithic media culture.

I cannot agree with the statement that most Americans identify more with their state than their country (especially urbanites). I speak also from my own personal feelings and those I know (who consider themselves American far more than they do Floridian).

However, if videosift is an aggregate for the american population, i'd say there is a gathering feeling towards the 'british' way of thinking

It's not... with the exception of QM and the occasional other conservative, videosift is about as secular-progressive as the DailyKOS or Moveon.org.