*equality *politics *promote

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This is all very simple. Arizona has been asking the Federal government to do its job, and the feds failed miserably. The illegal population is causing serious problems financially and (more recently) to safety. It is to the government's shame that it is not interested in fulfilling it's only constitutionally prescribed function. So Arizona passed a law to do the job that the federal government was too chicken, lazy, or dastardly bother performing... Enforce the law & protect its LEGAL CITIZENS.

This isn't prejudice, or racism. It is simple, common-sense, effective law enforcement. MSNBC had a hilarious news crawl... "Arizona makes it against the law to be an illegal immigrant..." Against the law...to be ILLEGAL. People with this kind of mental disconnect are the ones opposing law enforcement. Any person in the country illegally should immediately be returned to their country of origin. No excuses. You want in the USA? That's fine. Follow the law. 70% of Arizona approves this. Who are you guys to sniff your nose at it? They live there. You do not. You know jack about what the issues here are - and that includes race baiters & demagogues like Maddow.

This law will result in the racial profiling of legal US citizens in Arizona. That's not protecting them, it's abusing them.

Not predudice or racists?... did you even watch the video? Or read about the people who proposed/wrote it?....

Wow... closing your eyes a little more than usually arn't ya there WP. How can you even suggest that it isn't a factor?

I'm sure this is all very simple to you. When the world is all black-and-white, good-vs-evil, it's very easy to resort to absolutism.

The whole 'states rights' BS that the hardcore right-wing spouts is silly and paranoid. The whole 'it's only constitutionally prescribed function' is even sillier. Only a fucking fool demands that people (and governments) stick to rules laid out hundreds of years ago. Might as well demand that the Feds stop building highways and maintaining bridges, if we're gonna stick to the script and all.

If brown folks bother you, just say it. This law makes anyone some podunk, hillbilly police officer thinks looks Mexican into a suspect. You can try to fashion it and hide behind as many things as you want - but every dark-skinned person in Arizona is now a suspect.

For someone who spouts as much Freedom and Big Gubmint bullshit as you do to miss the whole 1984 aspect of this goes to show just how valuable your principles really are to you.>> ^Winstonfield_Pennypacker:

This is all very simple. Arizona has been asking the Federal government to do its job, and the feds failed miserably. The illegal population is causing serious problems financially and (more recently) to safety. It is to the government's shame that it is not interested in fulfilling it's only constitutionally prescribed function. So Arizona passed a law to do the job that the federal government was too chicken, lazy, or dastardly bother performing... Enforce the law & protect its LEGAL CITIZENS.
This isn't prejudice, or racism. It is simple, common-sense, effective law enforcement. MSNBC had a hilarious news crawl... "Arizona makes it against the law to be an illegal immigrant..." Against the law...to be ILLEGAL. People with this kind of mental disconnect are the ones opposing law enforcement. Any person in the country illegally should immediately be returned to their country of origin. No excuses. You want in the USA? That's fine. Follow the law. 70% of Arizona approves this. Who are you guys to sniff your nose at it? They live there. You do not. You know jack about what the issues here are - and that includes race baiters & demagogues like Maddow.

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I'm glad that the people who just had a year-long tantrum about how health care reform was some tyrannical overreach of government, are now asserting the righteousness of this Arizona law that empowers the police to shake down anyone for documentation on mere suspicion, and arrest people who can't prove their citizenship on the spot.

Really helps the whole "racist sore loser" argument we have against them.

@NetRunner. You and I agree on something. I think the stars must be aligned.

I would have thought that even if you feel the law is a good one (i.e. locating illegal immigrants - who after all are ILLEGAL) most people would think that the method used here is silly. If I don't LOOK the part, I have to prove up?

C'mon, get real!

@blankfist, I think you and I agree on a lot more things than you and the tea parties do.

Hell, I think a lot of your perceived disagreements with me have more to do with antithetical feelings about Democratic politicians than it has to do with things I personally believe.

I normally agree with most of Maddow's clips, but not this time. Living in Arizona I've caught illegals dropping their pants and pooping in my backyard. And as an environmentalist I will support laws that will help control the thousand mile trash dump along the border. I strongly support this bill and you probably would too if you lived here and experienced some of this.

You mean, unless you are a latino-looking american. I wish I could say that I am surprised at the resurrection of Jim Crow. How any american can support a police state is beyond me. >> ^CaveBear:
I normally agree with most of Maddow's clips, but not this time. Living in Arizona I've caught illegals dropping their pants and pooping in my backyard. And as an environmentalist I will support laws that will help control the thousand mile trash dump along the border. I strongly support this bill and you probably would too if you lived here and experienced some of this.

Well the dead rancher from Douglas, AZ would have supported a little bit of police help. In many cases it is pretty easy to see who is illegal and who is not.
>> ^longde:

How any american can support a police state is beyond me.

In Arizona, one can now be stopped, and forced to prove their innocence to a law enforcement offical.....unless they are white. Because if they are white, then its assumed they are in the country legally.

Yeah, I see this law not lasting very long. It fails on two seperate laws at the federal level:

A) The 4th Amendment against illegal search and seizure. An officer must show the burdern of evidence that a Latino-American is NOT a US Citizen, BEFORE, the Latino-American has to prove their innocence of the charge. A person is INNOCENT, until proven guilty. I would have thought those conservatives would have studied the US Constitution better then that.

B) The 1964 American Civil Liberity Act, Title 7. That's the one that talks about what you CAN'T discriminate over: like one's race.

Finally, I'm abit amused the Tea Baggers aren't complaining about the waste of money. After all, this and the 'birthers' law will get struck down in courts (that one, for failing over the 1st Amendment). Just think, of the amount of money it takes to move a bill from concept to being voted on in both the House and Senate of Arizona. Then it has to be signed in to law by the Govenor. After that, it has to be defended in EVERY court case. So yes, where are the Tea Bagggers bemoaning goverment waste? Hypocrits!

The birther bill fails, in that, it just takes one Arizonian Democrat to say "I would like this person's name on the ballot, as I believe based on the information, he/she is a US Citizen".

This bill ignores the real problem. Not justly dealing with the illegal immigration problem that exists in the western states. Tijuana any one, or Nogales? What about the 100 mile inland search and identify checkpoints? I was stopped but never searched every time I went from Arizona to Texas; I was questioned as well.

That's the hardest thing about this bill is that it seems to be doing some good, when in reality it is not. It skirts the issues, and only tightens its grip around civil rights and the freedom of citizens to move from place to place; without fear of repercussion or because of their pigmentation. It also puts a heavy hammer over the police to force them to do their jobs; whatever that may be.

There is an illegal immigration issue, but it hardly requires racist, or unconstitutional laws to solve it. As stereotypical as this sounds, a large amount of people will think that if a bill is not in place then illegal immigrants will get a free ride. That does a disservice to all Naturalized Citizens(Some of which may be more informed of US history than any Naturally Born Citizen), and it disenfranchises the conservative right; hardly needed at the moment.

Whether it is liked or not; illegal immigration is Illegal and that will probably never change.

I used to live on the Canada US Boarder and quite frequently we would have homeless white Americans sneak into our barns, defecating on our property and stealing from us. Being of mix raced decent it was pretty easy to identify what an illegal looked like, they were white people.

Seriously though, wtf Arizona?

>> ^Winstonfield_Pennypacker:

This is all very simple. Arizona has been asking the Federal government to do its job, and the feds failed miserably.

The feds failed miserably to pass republican proposed legislation that the republican's won't support?

How 'dastardly' of them. They must be using their hippy left wing mind control powers!!!

And since this law is essentially unconstitutional (the same constitution that allows you to constantly spill your trollish, ignorant opinion), it will most likely be struck down.

Don't fret thought, I'm sure some other right wing 3rd reich wanna be nut job will come up with something even more ridiculous for you to throw support behind. =)

If brown folks bother you, just say it.

The position is one of law enforcement. The only relevant factor is 'legal' or 'illegal'. It is pretty weak when the only argument is to toss the race card and ignore the germaine issue of law enforcement.

...tyrannical overreach of government, but now assert ... this Arizona law that empowers the police to shake down anyone for documentation on mere suspicion, and arrest people who can't prove their citizenship on the spot.

The opposition to health care has always been discussed as the tyrannical overreach of the FEDERAL government. I've always stated that the state, county, and municipal level is where government should primarily be vested with Federal authority being limited to oversight & regulation. I know the left generally distrusts an approach that isn't centrally planned though. Let a STATE decide what is best for itself? The horror!

That's the hardest thing about this bill is that it seems to be doing some good, when in reality it is not

I tend to agree, but for different reasons. I can only shake my head at the left's attempt to paint this as a race issue. That seems like unfounded race baiting based only on presumption. But on the other hand, Arizona's law is a bandaid on a sword stroke. There are a lot of illegals of all shapes & sizes and they exist all over the country. Even if Arizona manages to clamp down, the illegals will just go somewhere else. The US has an OK - if cumbersome - student, temp worker, and immigration program. What we don't have is an effective system to deport illegals when they are identified.

The first step is to cut off the influx. Build the border wall. Walls work. Walls are effective. Ask the Huns, East Germans, and Palestinians. The US built the Panama Canal. Building an effective border wall is child's play by comparison.

Next, we have to require citizenship ID in order to obtain essential services. Renting or owning property, utilities, phones, education, bank accounts, cash by wire, employment, credit cards, driver permits, insurance, medical care and other key functions should all require ID. If you cannot supply the ID, then you get flagged for review and if you are an illegal you get deported. And yes, any time a cop pulls you over or picks you up - no matter who you are - you should be identified. If the police find they have an illegal, then the illegal gets remanded and deported.

I see no racism or malice in the sensible enforcement of immigration policy. Illegals are - by definition - illegal. I don't get why there are people who think that enforcing the law is racist. The accusation of racism seems to be a politically motivated red herring to me.

Halt! Ich bin ein Offizier des Gesetzes! Alle von euch, Papiere bitte.

The Godwin is so easy, but its exactly why we have a constitution that allows for citizens the right to be free.

This law does exactly what I feared. Stop and Identify, no you are not free to go. You must first Identify.

The problem with this law, is that it will enable racial profiling, to be legal, when at the federal level it is not legal.

So just because I look Slavic, Irish, or Russian means that I have to identify? Perhaps if the majority where a darker pigmentation then the whites would have to stop and identify? Its so uncomplicated from a place of relative comfort. I weep for the state of Arizona's civil rights, where it is not so civil to be right.

See the link below for the Federal Stance on Racial Profiling, section 1 I. GUIDANCE FOR FEDERAL OFFICIALS ENGAGED IN LAW ENFORCEMENT ACTIVITIES
http://www.justice.gov/crt/split/documents/guidance_on_race.php

good lord WP.
i have never seen you be this myopic and your arguments so obviously of the red herring flavor.
you are far better than that my friend.i have seen you make some very salient arguments albeit vitriolic at times but still smartly made.

now i dont know where your feelings are based solely on your arguments here and i will not even try.all i am going to say is if you believe "illegals" aka "workers" are some form of pariah then you have to believe some of the garbage the corporate media feeds us.
1.they took our jobs.
no they didnt fool.the major slaughterhouses and big agrobusiness did.hell..they even bus the mexicans in to butcher our beef and pick our produce.dont blame farmer joe down the street.
2.they drain our social programs.
they do?because according to CDF 73% of all assistance goes to "white" families.ok..emergency rooms..that is true.

this is basic class warfare and you have bought into it 100% my friend.you think the brown people are your enemy? then the irony is lost on you because you have more in common with brown people than you do with the people who are using corporate media to convince you that you are in the same class as them.
nooooo..they dont like you,nor do they even consider you relevant.the only time you are relevant is when you buy,vote or pay your taxes.any other time you are just a pissant.
they are not your friend so stop making their argument and see things for what they really are.
stop being a slave to the system.

The southern borders to the south are porous by design.
Mexican nationals have been here for over 2 centuries and only when the ramped-up destabilization of the U.S. by the elites who really run the show entered another phase did the signs of real strain begin to show.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wetback

Ike saw a reason to curtail the dark elements within the power elite (Imperialism) with his MIC speech on his way out as well.
The real enemies of humanity use race-baiting and propaganda in the form of spokespeople like Maddow..... constant newsspeak programs piped into every home, 24-7/365. (see Orwell's epic rant) Their agenda has been the same for a long, long time....Empire-building, consolidation of power, dominion.

Simple formula really-The elements of a successful takeover include destabilization of economies and nations through tactics we are experiencing worldwide.This shit is not unique to any one nation anymore because power and dominion over the planet have reached planetary proportions and is no longer relegated to individual nations. Next phase is coming soon......... one big country called the NAU.

This shit (National News cunts taking sides) is diversion. The real issue is how the systematic dumbing-down of populations while distracted by infotainment has kept most of the planet's landless peasants in a state of hypnosis ala bread and circuses and endless legalities with a view to enslaving them....so far it has been utterly successful, evidenced here in the delusional reasoning in most of the comments above.

The regime that may become our future (if you all don't pull your collective heads out of the asshole of television) will be totalitarian, and worldwide.....Corporations exist on the scale they do nowadays, because we forgot how insidious consolidation of power is.

I don't believe people will continue to sleep though, I have more hope for humanity than that.

The elimination of currencies, free energy and full-disclosure of the crimes of our keepers is the next step in human evolution.There is simply a cabal of fucking human garbage who have successfully pulled the wool over the eyes of us for too long and these times are either the birth pangs of awakening, or the prelude to more complete global enslavement.

wp.
sorry bud.
just read your second post.
while i may disagree with some points your argument was far better than the first.
so we can agree that immigration reform should be done and be done quickly?
because i dont see how a major corporation should be allowed to bus and house "illegals" to work in their plants and harvest their crops and the workers are then treated like the criminals.
the INS only will arrest 10% of these "illegals" so production may continue.
how is it a poor mexicans fault when they were recruited by the company?
these people are poor and are grabbing at an opportunity to feed their family.
the hypocrisy is just atrocious.

Wasn't there a point in history when libertarians felt that the very idea of government-issued identification was a sign of the end times?

I really just don't understand why immigration is ever "illegal" in the first place.

I'm with enoch, it seems to me that all the societal ills caused by immigration are actually caused by corporations breaking labor laws, not by the immigrants themselves.

But, I'm sure there's some obvious reason I'm missing why massive police action against the immigrants themselves is the necessary fix...

I mean, something other than racial xenophobia, since y'all swear it's just a red herring that us evil liberals invented.

I'm all for immigration reform. Rewrite the laws. Have them make sense, and then ENFORCE THEM!
Stop companies from taking advantage of illegal immigrants. Make it easier to become a citizen. But have some control over how people can come into this country.

If you have a green card you are bound legally to carry it with you 24 hours a day.
When I travel internationally I have to have my passport and visa with me 24 hours a day.
If I travel into Mexico I have to have my passport and I have to show it to an officer when requested.
Same thing whenever I travel to China. In fact whenever I travel through regional borders I have to provide my passport. Same thing with every hotel I stay at in China. All of them require I provide my passport and they provide a copy of main page to the local government.
I carry my drivers license with me always. I would never even think of it as an offense if an officer asked to see it.

>> ^NetRunner:

Wasn't there a point in history when libertarians felt that the very idea of government-issued identification was a sign of the end times?
I really just don't understand why immigration is ever "illegal" in the first place.
I'm with enoch, it seems to me that all the societal ills caused by immigration are actually caused by corporations breaking labor laws, not by the immigrants themselves.
But, I'm sure there's some obvious reason I'm missing why massive police action against the immigrants themselves is the necessary fix...
I mean, something other than racial xenophobia, since y'all swear it's just a red herring that us evil liberals invented.


Libertarians? No religious nut bags? Yes.

We should be fining Mexico one barrel of oil per illegal per day. And obamarx is mad that he'll be losing more of his voters.

With all this uproar I haven't read anyone offering a different solution. Any ideas?..

I don't agree with the racial profiling but it's worth keeping in mind that this law will be popular until they have an alternative to solve the problem and if the law is taken away by the feds while it's still popular it will make things worse - make the people angrier and more ruthless on the issue.

>> ^lampishthing:

With all this uproar I haven't read anyone offering a different solution. Any ideas?..
I don't agree with the racial profiling but it's worth keeping in mind that this law will be popular until they have an alternative to solve the problem and if the law is taken away by the feds while it's still popular it will make things worse - make the people angrier and more ruthless on the issue.


^Integration is the key. Make it easier for people to legally immigrate and you'll have less illegal immigrants. Trying to stem the flow of people who want to join our country is not the answer. Spend the money on speeding up and creating easier access to the legal immigration process. America is not supposed to be about building walls, it's supposed to be:

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

>> ^burdturgler:

>> ^lampishthing:
With all this uproar I haven't read anyone offering a different solution. Any ideas?..
I don't agree with the racial profiling but it's worth keeping in mind that this law will be popular until they have an alternative to solve the problem and if the law is taken away by the feds while it's still popular it will make things worse - make the people angrier and more ruthless on the issue.

^Integration is the key. Make it easier for people to legally immigrate and you'll have less illegal immigrants. Trying to stem the flow of people who want to join our country is not the answer. Spend the money on speeding up and creating easier access to the legal immigration process. America is not supposed to be about building walls, it's supposed to be:
"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"


totally agree with you bud.
one problem.
that would be really bad for big business.
i mean..workers realizing a common cause and a common foe?
then actually joining in defense of their interests?
no no no no no..
elites dont share with peasants!
they pay a LOT of money to keep the legislators churning out sweet heart deals and they spend the rest of the money keeping us either sedated with mind numbing programming or they create a fear enviroment with their massive propaganda machine.
divide and conquer and then lull us into a television induced coma.
they have gotten better at it over the years and they mean to subjugate us using the very tools we thing are their to benefit us.
it is the ultimate lie and they have done a damn good job of it.

what you propose BT is based on common sense but who would it benefit?
normal,regular people..like you and i..since when did any elite give a rats fuck about you or i?
the only time..and i mean ONLY..is when we,as people,have let it be known it was in their best interest but we have lost that fight over 30 years ago and the majority have no idea they lost.
too wrapped up chasing their own tails.
they gotcha..
they gotcha by the balls.
you dont want to work overtime for no extra pay?
we will find someone who will..good luck paying your balloon mortgage.
bah..i could ramble for hours on this subject but i hope you get my drift.
debt=slavery
consumerism=slavery
corporate media=does not work for you and it never has.
capitol hill=bought and sold by your bosses and no longer work for you
judges=nope..not them either.

yet they have actually convinced people it is the brown people who are the problem.
/the mind boggles

What would happen if America kicked out all the so called "illegal" immigrates tomorrow!.. you would lose a good pecentage of your workforce and there would be more jobs that the average American wouldn't want to do..

Things would also start to cost more because these corporations are going to have to at least pay base wages... or at least start opperating out of china or where its cheaper.

This law seems to target the so called immagrates that are problems to the system.. the 10% or so crapping in peoples yards... shouldn't a person crapping in someones yard be locked up for indecent exposure?.. and hence the police would find out if said perosn is "illegal", This law just makes it easier for police to round up the problem illegals and put more fear into the current legal and illegal immagrates.

Personally I think a system where by illegals can become legal without fear of getting deported straight up would work much better.. however I guess it isn't as easy as that cause you still have to deal with those illegal people immargating to America.. maybe having better immagrations laws allowing people in however if they mess up have the ablitiy to kick them out again..

i don't know.. i guess it isn't as easy as that. All I can say is that this law is going to be imposed or abused by police on alot of legal Americans, by them getting locked up because they don't have their papers with them at the time. Well from the sounds of it. heck she couldn't even answer what an illegal looks like. lol and thats a good questions.. what does an illegal immagrate look like.. this is way more then a race issue here this is more of a civil rights issue... reminds me of the bikey gang laws they passed here in Australia.. where by no bikey gangs are allowed to meet.. Well what exactly is classified as bikey gang.. and what if they drive cars... lol my point is any gang could be classified as a bikey gang if the coppers really wanted to nail you... which is the same with illegals anyone could be an illegal so it gives coppers the right to lock anyone up if they can't prove themselves there and then on the spot.. even if its for a couple of hours.. eh.. whatever...

>> ^quantumushroom:

We should be fining Mexico one barrel of oil per illegal per day. And obamarx is mad that he'll be losing more of his voters.


The Michael Savage approach, eh qm? You, like he, broken record. He's a semantic entertainer whose actions, were they as true as his words, would amount to more than doing exactly what NetRuiner does for the videosift, spouting rhetoric, blaming others for the ills created by world citizens letting petty tyrants and corporations continually fuck them in the ass.

Both sides are ineffectual, both parties are ineffectual, taking sides "liberal" or "conservative" is an ineffectual, mental and spiritual masturbation session of vapid, nauseating proportions.

Voting has become akin to treating a sucking chest wound with gauze and Neosporin.

>> ^burdturgler:

>> ^lampishthing:
With all this uproar I haven't read anyone offering a different solution. Any ideas?..
I don't agree with the racial profiling but it's worth keeping in mind that this law will be popular until they have an alternative to solve the problem and if the law is taken away by the feds while it's still popular it will make things worse - make the people angrier and more ruthless on the issue.

^Integration is the key. Make it easier for people to legally immigrate and you'll have less illegal immigrants. Trying to stem the flow of people who want to join our country is not the answer. Spend the money on speeding up and creating easier access to the legal immigration process. America is not supposed to be about building walls, it's supposed to be:
"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"


They want to "join" our country rather, FLEE their country because the level of crime and corruption south of the U.S. (assisted every step of the way BY the U.S.) has reached a level any reasonable citizen would have pulled a Bastille Day on their asses for, and killed every last member of their government for getting them there, had they had the education and intelligence. Instead they, like most fucking Americans, are too wiped out from working and too addicted to drugging them selves with chemicals and entertainment.

You are as out of touch as the rest of them buuuurdturgler.