Lessons learned:

- Don't trust Toronto drivers period.
- Probably shouldn't have had my clutch pulled in and powered through. At the end of the day it is a learning experience.
- Luckily I didn't slam on my rear break or I would have likely low sided;
- Try not to scream like a little girl
Drachen_Jagersays...

Or when you're on a motorcycle actually follow the rules of the damn road?

Yellow means stop if it's safe. He had tons of room to stop and decided to hit the gas instead. LOS doesn't matter, he was the one breaking the law, yellow light is the left turner's chance to turn.

Guy was being a prick and then complains about the other guy's driving.

There's a reason the majority of organ donations come from motorcyclists.

Also, missed this the first time round. He's in an urban area doing 60. So on top of running the light, he's speeding!

ChaosEnginesaid:

Other lessons possibly don't accelerate into an intersection with a yellow light when you don't have a clear line of sight?

blutruthsays...

OK, a few things.

60 km/h is about 37 mph and although I don't know the exact speed limit on that street, it's not unreasonable to assume it's 50 or 60 km/h.

In the video, the light turns yellow approximately 1.5 seconds before he enters the intersection. He is going 54 km/h at that time. This means he is approximately 23 m from the intersection when the light turns yellow.

According to nacta.org, the safe stopping distance for an average driver at 35 mph is 136 ft or around 41 m.

From the Ontario Highway Traffic Act: Every driver approaching a traffic control signal showing a circular amber indication and facing the indication shall stop his or her vehicle if he or she can do so safely, otherwise he or she may proceed with caution. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 144 (15).

Also from the Ontario Highway Act: No driver or operator of a vehicle in an intersection shall turn left across the path of a vehicle approaching from the opposite direction unless he or she has afforded a reasonable opportunity to the driver or operator of the approaching vehicle to avoid a collision. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 141 (5).

Drachen_Jagersaid:

Or when you're on a motorcycle actually follow the rules of the damn road?

Yellow means stop if it's safe. He had tons of room to stop and decided to hit the gas instead. LOS doesn't matter, he was the one breaking the law, yellow light is the left turner's chance to turn.

Guy was being a prick and then complains about the other guy's driving.

There's a reason the majority of organ donations come from motorcyclists.

Also, missed this the first time round. He's in an urban area doing 60. So on top of running the light, he's speeding!

bcglorfsays...

Rewatch the video, when it starts the light is green.

-The time on the video is 1 second in when the light turns yellow
-His speed at that time is 54km/h, default speed limit in Canada in urban centers is 50km/h but plenty of stretches are 60km/h, decent odds his 5k under versus over.
-The time on the video when his front wheel hits the stop line is 3 seconds.


From that we can say the time from the light turning yellow, to him reaching the point he needed to stop was 2 seconds. At 50km/h, lets work out the distance. 50 km/h works out to 13.9m/s, so the moment the light went yellow he was maybe 28metres from the stop line.

Australian government says that dry road stopping distance for a family car at 50km is 35m. Now, sometimes a bike can perform better braking, sometimes it can perform worse, but it doesn't seem that it's obvious a biker should be able to stop in 28m the instant a light goes yellow, seems that passing through is not only prudent, but quite likely the only option that physics allows.

https://www.qld.gov.au/transport/safety/road-safety/driving-safely/stopping-distances/graph

Drachen_Jagersaid:

Or when you're on a motorcycle actually follow the rules of the damn road?

Yellow means stop if it's safe. He had tons of room to stop and decided to hit the gas instead. LOS doesn't matter, he was the one breaking the law, yellow light is the left turner's chance to turn.

Guy was being a prick and then complains about the other guy's driving.

There's a reason the majority of organ donations come from motorcyclists.

Also, missed this the first time round. He's in an urban area doing 60. So on top of running the light, he's speeding!

bcglorfsays...

The moment the yellow can is half clear of the intersection the vehicle that cuts left when unsafe is already visible, aka clear line of sight. Predicting that another driver is likely to veer in for a head on collision is impossible. I've watched a couple times and can't see any turn signals either. What's with everyone getting on the biker here?

ChaosEnginesaid:

Other lessons possibly don't accelerate into an intersection with a yellow light when you don't have a clear line of sight?

newtboysays...

Predicting someone might turn left is impossible?!? Wow. Don't drive anywhere near me, please.
Also, sometimes a bike can brake better than a family car?! Unless you're comparing bikes with broken brakes to cars with high powered aftermarket disk brakes, that should be always.
It sure looks like a blinker at second 4-5, but I could tell he was turning by second 1-2.
Neither of them were blameless, imo.

bcglorfsaid:

The moment the yellow can is half clear of the intersection the vehicle that cuts left when unsafe is already visible, aka clear line of sight. Predicting that another driver is likely to veer in for a head on collision is impossible. I've watched a couple times and can't see any turn signals either. What's with everyone getting on the biker here?

Khufusays...

Well as for the braking, bikes actually can't break as fast as a car often due to very tiny tire contact patches... breaking hard on a bike can be quite dangerous! My car can stop WAY faster than any motorcycle I've owned because with the car you can just slam on the brake and abs kicks in. and tons of tire contact. Also this is probably a go-pro or similar, so wide lens and everything looks way further than it would have appeared to the rider.

newtboysaid:

Predicting someone might turn left is impossible?!? Wow. Don't drive anywhere near me, please.
Also, sometimes a bike can brake better than a family car?! Unless you're comparing bikes with broken brakes to cars with high powered aftermarket disk brakes, that should be always.
It sure looks like a blinker at second 4-5, but I could tell he was turning by second 1-2.
Neither of them were blameless, imo.

newtboysays...

But bikes can brake much faster due to being 1/10 the weight. My bicycle has far less contact and stops on a dime.
I'm pretty sure some new bikes have abs too.

Khufusaid:

Well as for the braking, bikes actually can't break as fast as a car often due to very tiny tire contact patches... breaking hard on a bike can be quite dangerous! My car can stop WAY faster than any motorcycle I've owned because with the car you can just slam on the brake and abs kicks in. and tons of tire contact. Also this is probably a go-pro or similar, so wide lens and everything looks way further than it would have appeared to the rider.

ChaosEnginesays...

The fundamental point is that when the light turns yellow, the yellow car IS blocking his view, but he speeds up anyway, essentially committing to making the intersection.

At 0:02 the light is yellow and his speed is 54km/h. Less than a second later, his speed is over 60km/h. I'd argue that you can actually see a turn signal from the blue car at 0:05, but the video is blurry.

Either way, it's entirely predictable that the oncoming traffic in the middle lane might be turning left, so the sensible course of action is to proceed with caution.

I'm not saying the biker is an asshole. He just made a mistake and I'm glad he's ok. He certainly doesn't deserve to be injured.

bcglorfsaid:

The moment the yellow can is half clear of the intersection the vehicle that cuts left when unsafe is already visible, aka clear line of sight. Predicting that another driver is likely to veer in for a head on collision is impossible. I've watched a couple times and can't see any turn signals either. What's with everyone getting on the biker here?

bcglorfsays...

You keep saying that the biker 'committed' to making the light.

As I pointed out, I thought pretty clearly, when the light turned yellow, the driver, based on his speed and time of the video, was less than 30m from the intersection when most any stopping distance guide lists minimum stopping distances as greater than 30m. Physics had him committed to the intersection already.

As for proceeding with caution, I don't disagree, but 100% of the time the person crossing lanes going left is responsible for being sure that it is safe to do so. The driver proceeding through straight should do their best as well, but the responsibility is on the person crossing/changing lanes.

ChaosEnginesaid:

The fundamental point is that when the light turns yellow, the yellow car IS blocking his view, but he speeds up anyway, essentially committing to making the intersection.

At 0:02 the light is yellow and his speed is 54km/h. Less than a second later, his speed is over 60km/h. I'd argue that you can actually see a turn signal from the blue car at 0:05, but the video is blurry.

Either way, it's entirely predictable that the oncoming traffic in the middle lane might be turning left, so the sensible course of action is to proceed with caution.

I'm not saying the biker is an asshole. He just made a mistake and I'm glad he's ok. He certainly doesn't deserve to be injured.

newtboysays...

He accelerated to make the light...that's his mistake.

According to this study, even without antilock brakes and accounting for reaction time, 30m is plenty of distance to stop at that speed. Sorry.
http://www.bikesafer.com/detail/braketime.html

Not 100% of the time. If the light had turned red while the car turning was in the intersection waiting to turn (almost what happened here), then they turned and a car runs the light and hits them, going straight, it's still the second cars fault.
BUT
That argument still ignores reality, which doesn't care who is legally at fault, it's the biker that will pay the price, so logically it's the biker that needs to be more careful. In this instance, he wasn't careful enough...or was, but just barely.

bcglorfsaid:

You keep saying that the biker 'committed' to making the light.

As I pointed out, I thought pretty clearly, when the light turned yellow, the driver, based on his speed and time of the video, was less than 30m from the intersection when most any stopping distance guide lists minimum stopping distances as greater than 30m. Physics had him committed to the intersection already.

As for proceeding with caution, I don't disagree, but 100% of the time the person crossing lanes going left is responsible for being sure that it is safe to do so. The driver proceeding through straight should do their best as well, but the responsibility is on the person crossing/changing lanes.

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