That settles it. I wasn't sure whether I'd raise children in the way I was raised and then let them choose for themselves when the time came. Now I'm positive that's not going to happen. This is amazingly revealing. As a Classical scholar, I've heard about the Attis, Dionysus, and Mithras (the Romanization of Mithra) before, but the explication of all the aspects in this it astounding. Human beings are something else...

*long

This video has been flagged as being at least 10 minutes in length - declared long by my15minutes.

Very interesting, thanks for sharing this.

There are some serious factual errors in the video.

The only god it references which was thought to be born on December 25th was Mithras.

Almost none of them had 12 disciples. None of them were buried for "three days" after their death. (Dionysus, for instance, took several months to be reborn--since he was a transplanted fetus. But he never really "died;" being the son of Zeus, he was immortal.)

There are a lot of dying and resurrecting gods--and goddesses--but few have that many details in common with Jesus or with each other.

That said, in the context of world religion and myth, Jesus' story is nonetheless still pretty unremarkable.

I love this video for bitch-slapping people into questioning what they really believe, and make them feeling cheap in their dogmatic smugness.

What I like less is the rampant inaccuracy and desire to overwhelm with lots of busted truths.
Instead of trying to obsess over repeated patterns, with dubious arguments, one should wonder about the 'workings' of our newly acquired cortex and its vigorous attempts to see patterns everywhere.

I saw that movie. The Jesus-part is nice (although i'm not surprised at the factual errors HadouKen pointed out), but then it just turns into an offensive mess of * lies and bullshit about the Federal Reserve and 9/11.

[edit]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeitgeist,_the_Movie

Ok I found this very very interesting and a bit dubious. So I went on a little mini mission - what I was most interested in was the birth day of Horus, which I could not find.

What I did find was this rebuttal (and a few others closely modelled after it)
http://www.kingdavid8.com/Copycat/JesusHorus.html

So what I became interested in was this statement:
"Horus’ mother was not a virgin. She was married to Osiris, and there is no reason to suppose she was abstinent after marriage. Horus was, per the story, miraculously conceived. Seth had killed and dismembered Osiris, then Isis put her husband's dead body back together and had intercourse with it. In some versions, she used a hand-made phallus since she wasn't able to find that part of her husband. So while it was a miraculous conception, it was not a virgin birth."

I went to what is probably only one of MANY versions of the Horus story, the famed "Book of the dead"

And of Horus' conception it reads:
"[Isis] sought him untiringly, she wandered round and round about this earth in sorrow, and she alighted not without finding him. She made light with her feathers, she created air with her wings, and she uttered the death wail for her brother. She raised up the inactive members of whose heart was still, she drew from him his essence, she made an heir, she reared the child in loneliness, and the place where he was not known, and he grew in strength and stature, and his hand was mighty in the House of Keb."
http://www.touregypt.net/bod1.htm
http://www.aldokkan.com/religion/dead1.htm

Which sounds like an immaculate birth to me.

What I haven't done - is look through the rest of the document to find out if it mentions Isis having sex. And if it does, then I need to find out if the Book of the Dead is an amalgam of older fables (which I suspect it is). And if it is, does one of these fables, in its discrete form, portray Isis as a virgin? thereby proving there was a view/tale which pronounced the Sun-god of a virgins birth.

And if it does, the same treatment should be given to the rest of the claimed parrallels.


It seems to me that allot of the rebuttals (though im sure they dont claim to do this) find one, or even multiple accounts that do NOT gel with the tale of Jesus.

I'd like to go through the sources on by one, I wouldn't be surprised if some/most are not legitimate. But the fact that the book of the Dead can be INTERPRETED as correlating with one keystone aspect of the birth of Jesus makes me mildly interested. Im sure its way less water tight than portrayed, the entire religion debate would be totally moot if it was that easy.

I've got more important things to do, so Im hoping someone has already done this for me

But all that aside:

From 7:43 onwards I was gripped by the logic, and utter persuasiveness.

So in the end who cares about the loose research. The pure and perfect parrallel with the path of the the sun is totally compelling to the open mind.

The discussion is transformed from
"is there a pagan precursor to the story of jesus?", to
"Did god made Jesus follow the script of the pagan cultures' sun god story just to screw with our heads? or is it just a continuation of a mega-cultural tradition?"

Come to think of it, even the Great Peace Maker of the Iroquois Confederacy was of a virgin birth. Kinda makes you think.

>> ^HadouKen24:
There are some serious factual errors in the video.
The only god it references which was thought to be born on December 25th was Mithras.
Almost none of them had 12 disciples. None of them were buried for "three days" after their death. (Dionysus, for instance, took several months to be reborn--since he was a transplanted fetus. But he never really "died;" being the son of Zeus, he was immortal.)
There are a lot of dying and resurrecting gods--and goddesses--but few have that many details in common with Jesus or with each other.
That said, in the context of world religion and myth, Jesus' story is nonetheless still pretty unremarkable.


None of them were buried for "three days"? I stopped the video the first time this claim was made, and arrived at Mithra. Here is a source stating that Mithra was raised after 3 days: http://freethoughtpedia.com/wiki/Jesus_and_Mithra

if this video was true, it would be the nail in the coffin for christianity. however, when i saw this a while back and went to try to confirm some of what it was saying i couldn't. has anyone done this?

Here's another reason why this video is way off... Jesus wasnt born on December 25th. Chances are he wasnt even born during winter. Mostly likely he was born sometime in the fall. The Dec 25th date was decided on much later by the church because that was a famous pagan holiday.

^Umm, I think you're missing the point. Likely none of these people was actually born on December 25, if any existed at all. The fact is that the myths associated with most of these figures put their dates of birth at December 25 for astrological reasons.

*Upvote for the animation at 2:27

I don't trust ANYTHING that's Zeitgeist involved. Even if they said Ice is cold and fire is hot. They just have no credibility.

any video with music like that, and narration like that, is gonna be bullshit.

^ Are you serious? Could you please explain?

ok i will explain in a way you can understand:

{dramatic music}

circles and crosses are used as symbols

{dramatic music}

the number 12 blah blah therefore all connected

{dramatic music}

you see how simple it is when you don't have to use facts all the time?

{dramatic music}

no conclusion, just conjecture and clever editing

{dramatic music}

citation needed

{dramatic music}

by the way i broadly agree that christianity is just another twist on paganism, subverted by powerful cynics. It's just that these kind of videos annoy me because if they just told the TRUTH it would still be fascinating. Why do they have to go and destroy their credibility by linking vague factoids and half truths to otherwise interesting topics?

the truth is more boring and has no soundtrack.

^ That's true, even though I found it interesting, you can't escape the fact that the presentation is all "we did not land on the moon" type of video.

>> ^RhesusMonk:
That settles it. I wasn't sure whether I'd raise children in the way I was raised and then let them choose for themselves when the time came. Now I'm positive that's not going to happen. This is amazingly revealing. As a Classical scholar, I've heard about the Attis, Dionysus, and Mithras (the Romanization of Mithra) before, but the explication of all the aspects in this it astounding. Human beings are something else...


While I agree with you, you can't say that any of this proves Atheism true or necessarily proves any religions false.
I think maybe I'm just a hopeless agnostic.

^Of course, the positions of both atheism and theism are neither falsifiable nor intellectually honest. Most self-proclaimed atheists (such as myself) would, when prodded, admit to really being agnostic (I prefer the term "teapot agnostic", after Russell's Teapot). The reason I avoid labeling myself an agnostic is because most people take this to mean either (A) I am apathetic about the whole idea or (B) I am 50/50, when in reality I have devoted far more thought to it than the average person, and my split is more like 99.9999/0.0001. I have to acknowledge the possibility of the existence of one or more deities, however remote and absurd, because there is no evidence to disprove their existence.

If one claims that a being exists who violates all the laws of physics (i.e., an extraordinary claim), one requires some pretty compelling proof (i.e., extraordinary evidence). So far, absolutely none has been submitted, so I will continue to have a lack of belief in supernatural deities, and will encourage the same logical, reasonable thought in my future children, while of course not requiring it.

i'm a hopeFUL agnostic.

i wanna go to heaven. MY way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Christ_in_comparative_mythology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraism#Mithraism_and_Christianity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_Paganism

Wow...

That's eerie. Very interesting to think about.

This is all *lies

Argh. I'm downvoting this crap.

Adding video to channels (Lies) - requested by djsunkid.

Nobody has actually demonstrated how/why this is lies though?

Sirius doesn't "align" with orions belt. Sirius is not a planet and does not move (relative to earth) so it cannot align with anything on any particular day of the year. You also cannot see the Southern Cross constellation from the northern hemisphere.

The life of Jesus of Nazareth certainly needs to be examined critically but this is not a very good example of critical thinking. There are no references and the narrator/writer obviously has no Astronomical training and relies soley on Astrological mumbo jumbo bullshit and his active imagination.

I'm not going to downvote a video that creates so much discussion on the sift but I AM going to call BULLSHIT on this one.

[[Citation Needed]]

This actually reminds me..

In a field trip during my grade 11 year, we went to.. I believe it was a Muslim Temple.

What they were basically saying, was that to be muslim, you have to believe in god, but deny.. Either the existence of Jesus altogether, or deny that he was gods son/prophet.

He also went on the explain that a Ji'had is NOT a holy war, rather then it's your duty. The example he gave was that if your mother is sick, it's your Ji'had to help your mother... or something along those lines, I was sitting in the front row trying to to laugh my head off because my friend and I kept making jokes.

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/index.html

There are plenty of sources cited there in the interactive transcript. Check them out if you think this is all lies. He also has an extensive Q&A section that responds to a lot of the criticism.

People who have a knee-jerk "lies!" response without any open minded thought are far less credible in my mind. Agree or disagree, at least have a productive discussion before dismissing anything.

Thanks a lot, that was very interesting.

However, I'm willing to wager that there actually was a Jesus, (or whatever name) who traveled around the Holy Land doing good works around the span of 2000 years ago. Whether or not he is actually immortal, well, that was solved by the video I just watched.

>> ^nibiyabi:
None of them were buried for "three days"? I stopped the video the first time this claim was made, and arrived at Mithra. Here is a source stating that Mithra was raised after 3 days: http://freethoughtpedia.com/wiki/Jesus_and_Mithra


There's no actual evidence for that claim, though. You'll notice that the site you link to doesn't provide a source.

That's because there isn't one. Most of the stuff that's claimed about Mithraism is pure speculation. We have literally no idea what the doctrines of Mithraism really were. It was a mystery cult, and those initiated were forbidden from revealing the doctrines to the public. The doctrines were never written down, as far as we know. All we have to go on are a few scattered claims and rumors in extant texts, and the symbols inside the Mithraea where Mithras was worshiped--symbols that could mean practically anything.

>> ^thehelix:
http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/index.html
There are plenty of sources cited there in the interactive transcript. Check them out if you think this is all lies. He also has an extensive Q&A section that responds to a lot of the criticism.
People who have a knee-jerk "lies!" response without any open minded thought are far less credible in my mind. Agree or disagree, at least have a productive discussion before dismissing anything.


The fact is that Zeitgeist's assertions regarding religion stand or fall with the legitimacy of his main source Gerald Massey, a 19th century poet and self-taught Egyptologist. His work has not stood the test of time, and his theories are not at all accepted among professional Egyptologists today.

Other sources cited on that list as authoritative purveyors of fact include James Frazer's Golden Bough and Manly P. Hall's The Secret Teachings of All Ages. James Frazer used a flawed research methodology and came to conclusions that have since been abandoned by succeeding anthropologists and mythographers. Manly P. Hall was an early 20th century esotericist, occultist, and freemason. His writings are works of speculation more than history.

I don't believe in magic
I don't believe in I-ching
I don't believe in Bible
I don't believe in Tarot
I don't believe in Hitler
I don't believe in Jesus
I don't believe in Kennedy
I don't believe in Buddha
I don't believe in Mantra
I don't believe in Gita
I don't believe in Yoga
I don't believe in Kings
I don't believe in Elvis
I don't believe in Zimmerman
I don't believe in Beatles
I just believe in me...and that reality
-John Lennon

"I don't even believe in belief"
- Terence McKenna

I wish people put one tenth of the effort into debunking religion as they do into debunking Zeitgeist.

If this clip made you think for yourself, question your beliefs, do your own digging around for information and open your eyes to the power of culture and myth, then it did its job and deserves an upvote.

There is no book, video or authority on ANY subject that isn't open to questioning and further research. ONLY when it comes to religion do people demand some kind of instant de-programming of prior beliefs.

If you DO require instant deprogramming of prior beliefs, a good dose of psylocibin mushrooms or LSD, in your own living room, on a Friday night, will be just the thing.

>> ^Fusionaut:
There are no references and the narrator/writer obviously has no Astronomical training and relies soley on Astrological mumbo jumbo bullshit and his active imagination.


Hmmm, that reminds me of a story. See, there was this virgin...

>> ^Shepppard:
This actually reminds me..
In a field trip during my grade 11 year, we went to.. I believe it was a Muslim Temple.
What they were basically saying, was that to be muslim, you have to believe in god, but deny.. Either the existence of Jesus altogether, or deny that he was gods son/prophet.
He also went on the explain that a Ji'had is NOT a holy war, rather then it's your duty. The example he gave was that if your mother is sick, it's your Ji'had to help your mother... or something along those lines, I was sitting in the front row trying to to laugh my head off because my friend and I kept making jokes.


Thank you. Very insightful indeed =)

@ 6:17 RE: Orion and Sirius

As an astronomer, I can tell you that Sirius and the three stars which make up the belt of Orion ALWAYS line up... Yes, they do this on December 24th, but they also do this every other day/night of the year as well. Minor point... but one I felt compelled to make.

>> ^Irishman:
If this clip made you think for yourself, question your beliefs, do your own digging around for information and open your eyes to the power of culture and myth, then it did its job and deserves an upvote.
There is no book, video or authority on ANY subject that isn't open to questioning and further research. ONLY when it comes to religion do people demand some kind of instant de-programming of prior beliefs.
If you DO require instant deprogramming of prior beliefs, a good dose of psylocibin mushrooms or LSD, in your own living room, on a Friday night, will be just the thing.


Exactly how I feel. Thanks for posting.

>> ^garmachi:
@ 6:17 RE: Orion and Sirius
As an astronomer, I can tell you that Sirius and the three stars which make up the belt of Orion ALWAYS line up... Yes, they do this on December 24th, but they also do this every other day/night of the year as well. Minor point... but one I felt compelled to make.

But is our view of them always in line with the rising sun? It's supposedly all 5 stars that become aligned on the 24th.

While watching this video I got the same feeling I did when I read the da Vinci Code.

>> ^HollywoodBob:
But is our view of them always in line with the rising sun? It's supposedly all 5 stars that become aligned on the 24th.


This is actually quite easy to check out yourself. Download Stellarium, set the place to Bethlehem, set the date to December 25th and watch as Sirius and the "Three Kings" actually point towards the place where the sun will rise.

>> ^nibiyabi:
^Of course, the positions of both atheism and theism are neither falsifiable nor intellectually honest.

Atheism is a bit more intellectually honest than Adeism. An atheist just says that there is no such god as described by any of the religions. An adeist says that there are no gods at all. All the christian apologetics can do is argue for a deity; they can't find a way to reconcile the deity with the bible.

This reminded me of a video I saw some time ago which I have just dug up and posted:

http://www.videosift.com/video/Christians-against-Easter

*promote

Promoting this video back to the front page; last published Friday, October 24th, 2008 9:20pm PDT - promote requested by nibiyabi.

I call bullshit. It makes so much more sense that we were created by an omnipresent, omnipotent force, which then tried to punish and wipe us out multiple times; and seeing as we kept surviving, decided to drop off his son, who knew would got murdered, only to rise from the dead, and ultimately go back to join his father, leaving us all to try and figure out what the hell just happened.

Makes more sense then this garbage. Just ask the talking bushes.

>> ^videosiftbannedme:
I call bullshit. It makes so much more sense that we were created by an omnipresent, omnipotent force, which then tried to punish and wipe us out multiple times; and seeing as we kept surviving, decided to drop off his son, who knew would got murdered, only to rise from the dead, and ultimately go back to join his father, leaving us all to try and figure out what the hell just happened.
Makes more sense then this garbage. Just ask the talking bushes.


Hey, man, I talked to a bush once and they're not big fans of sarcasm and blasphemy. Gets em all fired up.

*promote

Promoting this video back to the front page; last published Sunday, October 18th, 2009 1:52am PDT - promote requested by geo321.

I so love this ( )

Happy Jesus Easter

Self promoting this video back to the front page; last published Friday, October 24th, 2008 5:54pm PDT - promote requested by original submitter eric3579.

It's an interesting video excepting that it is filled with distortions and outright lies:



The claims of this video have widely been debunked even by secular skeptics:

http://conspiracies.skepticproject.com/articles/zeitgeist/

The theory that the historical person of Jesus Christ is derived from ancient mythology is dead in the water. You will not find many in the scholarly community who have drunk this kool-aid.