So CERTAIN PEOPLE on Shift seem to say outrageous things over and over again and then never back it up with facts. Are they stupid? No, you're wasting your time trying to debate with them since debate was never their intent in the first place.
newtboysays...

You mean certain person, don't you? I suppose the proper response to him should just be "you're lying". Let him defend his nonsense.

The thing about this is most adults don't use their lizard brain to think...but the right uses only it's lizard brain these days. What do we do when fully half the population consistently ignores reality? Ignoring the ignorant got us Trump.

siftbotsays...

Double-Promoting this video and sending it back into the queue for one more try; last queued Monday, December 4th, 2017 6:32am PST - doublepromote requested by newtboy.

Mordhaus!!!says...

Technically, this is every single argument on the internet. One person puts detailed information and gets picked apart with short, snarky responses.

entr0pysays...

That was a good description of why that form of argument is successful, but the proposed solution seems unsatisfying. I mean, if you just shut down all contrary views by deleting the posts, banning the posters or ignoring them, it makes it seem like you're just trying to build a comfortable echo chamber. I feel like you've got to preserve the willingness to consider that you might be wrong, even when confronted with trolls.

StukaFoxsays...

Newt,

A certain person, yeah -- but there have been others from time-to-time.

Look, everyone knows we're talking about Bob, and I don't want to throw rocks at the guy. FWIW, for all his faults, I believe he's not stupid and is probably capable of presenting something rational if he could just get past bomb-throwing. He's presented a video where someone tried to intellectually defend the views that he holds. It wasn't the strongest set of arguments ever, but it was better than the usual bullshit.

Here's the thing: I actually want to hear what the other side thinks and feels, both from the standpoint of empathy and curiosity. Maybe there's something to learn from people on the other side. But I can't do this when all they present is HURR BLURF HURR CUCK SPECIAL SNOWFLAKE SJW LOCK HER UP ETC.

I hold vanishingly little hope that any kind of consensus can ever be reached again in this country (and the microcosm that is VideoSift) again, but I'm willing to at least listen and try to do my part. That doesn't mean I won't call bullshit, but if someone on the Right is willing to speak their piece without resorting to Alt-Right (Far Right) games, I'm game for something better than the usual flame war.

newtboysaid:

You mean certain person, don't you? I suppose the proper response to him should just be "you're lying". Let him defend his nonsense.

The thing about this is most adults don't use their lizard brain to think...but the right uses only it's lizard brain these days. What do we do when fully half the population consistently ignores reality? Ignoring the ignorant got us Trump.

C-notesays...

Seems the proposed solution would yield peaceful results verses trying to get a member of Black Lives Matter to sit down and really contemplate the point of view of an alt-right torch carrying defender of confederate monuments.

entr0pysaid:

That was a good description of why that form of argument is successful, but the proposed solution seems unsatisfying. I mean, if you just shut down all contrary views by deleting the posts, banning the posters or ignoring them, it makes it seem like you're just trying to build a comfortable echo chamber. I feel like you've got to preserve the willingness to consider that you might be wrong, even when confronted with trolls.

greatgooglymooglysays...

When somebody spouts off with a lie, you don't let them get on a tangent, even if it's another lie you want to shout down. Keep hammering on the first lie, ask for proof, evidence, even a progression of reasoning. Them being completely unable to supply any of those gives you satisfaction and shows everyone else reading how empty the original argument was.

suzannegascoynesays...

It's all so tricky. Don't answer and it looks like you're avoiding, do answer and you play into their set-up, request reasoning or evidence for their position, and oftentimes they will cite false information that is difficult to let stand without addressing with accurate facts. Definitely formidable to deal with conservative trolls--just like a playground bully that they are.

FlowersInHisHairsays...

That's not the proposed solution, though. The main idea is to keep control of your own story by explaining to your audience, not to the troll, what the truth is. But there is really nothing wrong with pruning remarks from people who are only trying to rile you or your audience up for their own amusement (true trolling). That's not the same as shutting down all contrary views, it's refusing to tolerate lies and unreasoned arguments that attempt to divert the conversation on a tangent.

entr0pysaid:

That was a good description of why that form of argument is successful, but the proposed solution seems unsatisfying. I mean, if you just shut down all contrary views by deleting the posts, banning the posters or ignoring them, it makes it seem like you're just trying to build a comfortable echo chamber. I feel like you've got to preserve the willingness to consider that you might be wrong, even when confronted with trolls.

newtboysays...

Unfortunately, that seems to be the only flavor of opposing views we get.

FlowersInHisHairsaid:

That's not the proposed solution, though. The main idea is to keep control of your own story by explaining to your audience, not to the troll, what the truth is. But there is really nothing wrong with pruning remarks from people who are only trying to rile you or your audience up for their own amusement (true trolling). That's not the same as shutting down all contrary views, it's refusing to tolerate lies and unreasoned arguments that attempt to divert the conversation on a tangent.

Asmosays...

Okay, so you put half the population in a box so you don't have to deal with the concept that there were many other reasons people might have voted for Trump...

You get the irony right? Or is it left? He did say that this strategy wasn't exclusive the province of the right... /giggle

newtboysaid:

The thing about this is most adults don't use their lizard brain to think...but the right uses only it's lizard brain these days. What do we do when fully half the population consistently ignores reality? Ignoring the ignorant got us Trump.

newtboysays...

If I'm allowed to put them somewhere, it would be a state run mental institution, not a box.

Whatever reasons they might have had required them to ignore reality, which is he's a well known, even proud liar/con man (read his book) with no consistency about anything, so no matter what he says you don't have a clue what he's doing.
I stand by my statement, but do admit it's not fully 1/2, really it's under 1/3, probably well under 1/3 by now...reality has this way of forcing itself in no matter how deep you bury your head, and many of his supporters have had a change of heart, hence his historically low support.

Asmosaid:

Okay, so you put half the population in a box so you don't have to deal with the concept that there were many other reasons people might have voted for Trump...

You get the irony right? Or is it left? He did say that this strategy wasn't exclusive the province of the right... /giggle

Asmosays...

Alrighty, so when challenged with an obvious flaw in your original post (ie. posting in a video about how the alt right trolls while using the exact same methodology), you change up the terms on engagement rather than answer the original criticism...

1. Short quip about how said boxed people are insane.
2. Go on about why said boxed people are mentally deficient, then crap on about Trump.
3. Get in to a pedantic explanation about the 50% figure and whether or not it was entirely accurate.

None of which addresses my original criticism and further goes to show that you are doing exactly what this video is talking about.

I don't give a fuck about Trump or his supporters, and while I do agree there are likely some racists/crazy people in the mix, I theorise that they mostly voted for him because he was different. Which is neither here nor there, the video is a smug left winger pointing out what a bunch of pointy headed gits alt right trolls are and you prove that the left is equally capable of being smug, pointy headed and trollish gits... = \

I don't disagree with your discontent re: the parlous state of affairs in the US at the moment, and I have a great deal of sympathy for American's who don't want that orangutan representing them. But if you (collective left, not you personally) want to try and occupy a high ground and dismiss the alt right, you need to actually live up to the standards you use to castigate people like Bk33.

newtboysaid:

If I'm allowed to put them somewhere, it would be a state run mental institution, not a box.

Whatever reasons they might have had required them to ignore reality, which is he's a well known, even proud liar/con man (read his book) with no consistency about anything, so no matter what he says you don't have a clue what he's doing.
I stand by my statement, but do admit it's not fully 1/2, really it's under 1/3, probably well under 1/3 by now...reality has this way of forcing itself in no matter how deep you bury your head, and many of his supporters have had a change of heart, hence his historically low support.

newtboysays...

Pardon me, I did not.
I didn't throw out ridiculous claims, then ignore rational replies to move on to more irrational and factually incorrect claims.

1)People who ignore reality are insane.
2)see 1
3)I'm pedantic? Did you learn something then?

I didn't address why people voted for Trump, that's your tangent to run down. I just mentioned that many who had have now seen their errors in trusting him (about whatever they believed) and no longer support him.

I see now why I ignored you before, you really are insufferable and not worth discussion with. Enjoy patting yourself on the back in smug self congratulations for such a witty insult.

BK33 stood me up on the date he arranged after promising me steak and dancing. Fuck him. Turned out he's a Russian troll, not a real person.

Asmosaid:

Alrighty, so when challenged with an obvious flaw in your original post (ie. posting in a video about how the alt right trolls while using the exact same methodology), you change up the terms on engagement rather than answer the original criticism...

1. Short quip about how said boxed people are insane.
2. Go on about why said boxed people are mentally deficient, then crap on about Trump.
3. Get in to a pedantic explanation about the 50% figure and whether or not it was entirely accurate.

None of which addresses my original criticism and further goes to show that you are doing exactly what this video is talking about.

I don't give a fuck about Trump or his supporters, and while I do agree there are likely some racists/crazy people in the mix, I theorise that they mostly voted for him because he was different. Which is neither here nor there, the video is a smug left winger pointing out what a bunch of pointy headed gits alt right trolls are and you prove that the left is equally capable of being smug, pointy headed and trollish gits... = \

I don't disagree with your discontent re: the parlous state of affairs in the US at the moment, and I have a great deal of sympathy for American's who don't want that orangutan representing them. But if you (collective left, not you personally) want to try and occupy a high ground and dismiss the alt right, you need to actually live up to the standards you use to castigate people like Bk33.

Asmosays...

You are going out of your way to prove my point. =)

newtboysaid:

Pardon me, I did not.
I didn't throw out ridiculous claims, then ignore rational replies to move on to more irrational and factually incorrect claims.

1)People who ignore reality are insane.
2)see 1
3)I'm pedantic? Did you learn something then?

I didn't address why people voted for Trump, that's your tangent to run down. I just mentioned that many who had have now seen their errors in trusting him (about whatever they believed) and no longer support him.

I see now why I ignored you before, you really are insufferable and not worth discussion with. Enjoy patting yourself on the back in smug self congratulations for such a witty insult.

BK33 stood me up on the date he arranged after promising me steak and dancing. Fuck him. Turned out he's a Russian troll, not a real person.

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