Video Flagged Dead

High School Teachers Use Laptop Webcams to Spy on Students!

From http://www.boingboing.net/2010/02/17/school-used-student.html

"According to the filings in Blake J Robbins v Lower Merion School District (PA) et al, the laptops issued to high-school students in the well-heeled Philly suburb have webcams that can be covertly activated by the schools' administrators, who have used this facility to spy on students and even their families. The issue came to light when the Robbins's child was disciplined for "improper behavior in his home" and the Vice Principal used a photo taken by the webcam as evidence. The suit is a class action, brought on behalf of all students issued with these machines."

In his home!!!! In his fucking home! Chock this up to another "Ha! Way to go statist idiots!" moment.
siftbotsays...

Self promoting this video and sending it back into the queue for one more try; last queued Thursday, February 18th, 2010 9:59pm PST - promote requested by original submitter blankfist.

Shepppardsays...

Too many questions.

Who paid for the laptops?
If the school paid, do they get the laptops back to pass on to a different generation when that one is moving on?
Were there rules or regulations if the laptop is school owned?
Did they sign a waver not realizing this was in the fine print?
Are the laptops the kids?

I need more information on this before I take one side over the other, however, I'm leaning more towards the teacher then the kids.

In highschool, we had a computer lab in the public library attached to our school, with open access to students on their spare or lunch etc. When the lab wasn't in use by students, it was open to the public, so they couldn't just block certain pages.

When students were on them, they had to log into their school account which had an underlying program like the one shown above, so that a teacher could just look at what you were doing. If it was schoolwork, it was fine. If you were slacking off, they'd generally lock your computer and throw up a picture of david hasslehoff, until you went over and appologised for not doing you work and asked them to remove it.

Now, if this is the kids own little toy, there's no WAY he can be charged with improper conduct for anything, because the picture as "evidence" is taken illegally, and therefore in-admissible as evidence, worst that happens is the kid gets a slap on the wrist.

If the laptop is school property, and he had to sign it out, or sign some form of contract before using it, and in either case whatever he signed said "Oh, and by the way, we reserve the right to watch you in your home" he may be S.O.L.

[Edit]: the laptops issued to high-school students Seems to me like these are school property. The kids were probably given a waiver their parents had to sign to get them, along with a deposit of sorts. That waiver would probably say they have this program installed on the laptops, and will use it to check up on the kids.

dagsays...

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag.(show it anyway)

@shepppard- completely disagree with you on this one. A laptop computer becomes an extension of your personal space. The guy with the goatee who likes to take pictures of the kids is just creepy as all get-out. Is he the principal?? He reminds me of the guy who bags my groceries.

edit: The linked BoingBoing article says it well: "But when schools take that personal information, indiscriminately invading privacy (and, of course, punishing students who use proxies and other privacy tools to avoid official surveillance), they send a much more powerful message: your privacy is worthless and you shouldn't try to protect it."

dagsays...

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag.(show it anyway)

I mean no disparagement to baggers - don't put your union on me. It's just that he really looks and sounds like the guy who bags my groceries - who is a bit creepy. He doesn't seem to have the attitude that you would expect of a dedicated school professional - again, not that baggers aren't dedicated professionals ... Um I'll just give up at this point.

>> ^CaptainPlanet:
hey man, i bag groceries. bagging groceries isn't just for creeps. sure, i'm a creep, but i knew a guy who knew a guy who bagged groceries, totally normal.

RedSkysays...

Monitoring applications running that's one thing. But a remote webcam that can be activated at will? How is that remotely necessary or helpful in policing computer use? I can't imagine a single responsible parent willingly and with full knowledge signing up their child for this kind of thing.

rottenseedsays...

"...as long as they're doing their work, there's nothing wrong with them chatting, looking at themselves in the mirror—as long as they get done by the 'X' amount of time that they have"

Uh yea..."as long as they're doing their work" who gives a flying fuck what the rest of their time is occupied with. As long as it's not inappropriate for school, I don't see a problem with it.

It's the equivalent to saying, even though I get straight A's, and I complete my work on time, I can't doodle in class. Who the fuck cares?

Duckman33says...

Isn't there some kind of law against spying on people in the privacy of their own homes? What if these kids are getting out the the shower and dressing for school in the morning when "Mr. Prinicple" decides to take a peeky poo?

Absolutely disgusting! I hope they win the lawsuit.

Shepppardsays...

>> ^dag:
@shepppard- completely disagree with you on this one. A laptop computer becomes an extension of your personal space. The guy with the goatee who likes to take pictures of the kids is just creepy as all get-out. Is he the principal?? He reminds me of the guy who bags my groceries.
edit: The linked BoingBoing article says it well: "But when schools take that personal information, indiscriminately invading privacy (and, of course, punishing students who use proxies and other privacy tools to avoid official surveillance), they send a much more powerful message: your privacy is worthless and you shouldn't try to protect it."


Easy killer, in my post I was saying that they may have signed a waiver saying they're allowed to be spied on.
I never said it was right.

When they're in school supposed to be doing schoolwork, I don't think it's a huge deal because the kids shouldn't be doing anything on said laptops BUT schoolwork, there it's a good idea. However the second they take it home, that's a moral line that shouldn't have been crossed, waiver or not.

It all lies in the "Did they have to sign something to own the laptops" question now. If there truly was a waiver or form the kids had to sign, and in the fine print said something like:

We reserve the right to be able to access whatever your child is doing on this laptop at any time, and photograph anything improper as evidence.

Then the kid is unfortunately screwed. Right or not, if they signed something the school is able to use their photograph against the kid in question.

If there was no waiver, then the evidence gained is inadmissible and therefore void. The kid will be fine, and the students should set up a counter-suit.

cybrbeastsays...

Shepppard, a waiver doesn't immediately make all actions in it legal. A waiver could say we reserve the right to electrically shock your children if they are not cooperating, but it still wouldn't be allowed. In this case the laptop could be used to make child pornographic pictures, which would be illegal, waiver or not.
I'm curious to see how this case will pan out.

xxovercastxxsays...

In the school, I don't care what he monitors, though I don't know what they expect to get from flipping on the camera.

At home, monitoring the computer should be ok so long as it's disclosed ahead of time. "These computers are for schoolwork only and we will be monitoring their use." Turning on the camera at home is absolutely unacceptable.

JiggaJonsonsays...

>> ^dag:
@shepppard- completely disagree with you on this one. A laptop computer becomes an extension of your personal space. The guy with the goatee who likes to take pictures of the kids is just creepy as all get-out. Is he the principal?? He reminds me of the guy who bags my groceries.
edit: The linked BoingBoing article says it well: "But when schools take that personal information, indiscriminately invading privacy (and, of course, punishing students who use proxies and other privacy tools to avoid official surveillance), they send a much more powerful message: your privacy is worthless and you shouldn't try to protect it."


First some fast facts about internet and computer use at schools:

-Most of the computers being used in schools today were obtained with some kind of grant money
-The high speed internet is also often funded through grants and eve if it isnt it's subject to regulations designated by the state
---Grant money always comes with strict guidelines, if you violate the terms of the grant your school could be forced to pay the money back and possibly be fined in addition to repayment

As someone who is a volunteer member of the technology committee (I get a certificate and everything) at my school, I can testify on behalf of what this school is doing. The grant that funds the internet at my school for example comes with stipulations that the internet is not to be used on social networking sites, video streaming sites (yes youtube is blocked per our grant), pornographic sites, etc. If there is traffic to said sites and there isn't reasonable attempts to block this activity, the aforementioned consequences would go into effect (probably only in an absolute egregious violation of the terms of the grant but it's possible).

All that being said, the internet and the computers dont belong to the kids, they belong to the state or they are bound by the grant that furnished them. It's not unreasonable to monitor the students as they work and make sure they're on task and not looking at anything they shouldn't be.

I didn't see this guy open the camera application in the background and "spy" on anyone. The kids sign a technology agreement before htey can use the internet and the computers. That agreement stipulates exactly what they can and cannot do while they should be working.

Moreover it's the duty of the technology personnel to make sure funding for the school isn't at risk because some 16 year old posts something ridiculous to their facebook page. I'm sure you all would be just as outraged if some kids posted suggestive photos of themselves online (far fetched right???) and then you found out GHASP they posted it while they were at school!!! "Where were the teachers!!?!? Isn't the technology staff doing anything to protect these innocent children!??!"

The whole thing about him taking pictures though is a bit weird. That, and that alone is what crossed the line in this video in my humble opinion.


EDIT__________________________________________________________________________

I didnt read the video description (dumb of me) ok, slight change in my opinion, yes, the computers issued to the students are property of the state and should be subject to monitoring but remotely activating hte webcam is crossing the line. If you look at a kids screen and he has it on, i say it's fair game (fair game meaning you could perhaps stipulate that the webcam shouldn't be used altogether but it's inappropriate for the administration to make discipline decisions based on what's being viewed in the camera unless two conditions were met, 1) the kid turned it on not anyone monitoring, and 2) The student was in some kind of danger (ie doing blow off his mousepad).

Doc_Msays...

The case isn't about their use of the state-owned computers in the classroom. In the school, the administrators have every right to monitor the use of their computers. The students shouldn't HAVE to offer any personal information on sites that are to be used for classes, so the privacy issue is moot on school grounds. The case is about whether the school activated the webcams while the students were in their homes.

If the school was peeping on their students in their homes by ANY means, the school is some deep trouble. They could potentially be breaking some obvious and very serious laws whether on purpose or otherwise.

The administration claims the cams were only ever turned on remotely when laptops were lost or allegedly stolen to help locate them.

The only things in this case that I read anywhere said an "image on the student's hard drive" was the reason for the disciplinary action. It didn't say that the image was OF the student in his home, though of course everyone suspects that it was. It's possible, however, that the student WAS doing something inappropriate on the computer while at home and the school found out about it later, legally. It's possible the case against the school is to evade that issue by turning the focus to the obviously dubious potential actions of the school. If the agreement that the students and parents signed prohibited ANY inappropriate use whether in or out of school, and if the school found out about that use later (say while the student was IN the school using their laptop), and if the computer contained the evidence to prove it, than the webcam may never have been remote-accessed at any time off campus in the first place; if that is the case, the school may be within their rights as owners of the laptops. I say all this is "possible" because it IS a feasible explanation, even if it is boring. Honestly, what school administrator would openly come out with a picture of a student in their home taken remotely?! That's almost TOO stupid to believe likely.

The issue is creepy in the extreme, but the school may be innocent, even though they made the enormously monumental failure of judgment by allowing the possibility for abuse at the get go.

cybrbeastsays...

To all those people here supporting the spying of the kids' activities with or without the webcam: How would you like it if your employer used these measures? You are probably using his computer during times in which you should be working, but you aren't. You're just doing some mostly harmless recreation on VideoSift.

I say if the grades of these children aren't suffering and if they manage to hand in their homework on time, there should be no reason to monitor their computer activity.

At high school I almost never did any schoolwork and also used the computers for unrelated stuff. However I finished high school with good grades, and I'm currently finishing my university master's degree. I can't imagine the hell high school would have been if I was constantly monitored to be actively doing schoolwork.

Draxsays...

There are so many better ways to go about restricting usage on school computers. The webcam should never be used to spy, period. Potential for corrupt use is way to high. Not to mention, what kind of atmosphere does this create? Yes, lets make school an even more oppressive environment, that'll get 'em learning!

Geezus, just brand a bar code on their necks.

Shepppardsays...

>> ^cybrbeast:
To all those people here supporting the spying of the kids' activities with or without the webcam: How would you like it if your employer used these measures? You are probably using his computer during times in which you should be working, but you aren't. You're just doing some mostly harmless recreation on VideoSift.
I say if the grades of these children aren't suffering and if they manage to hand in their homework on time, there should be no reason to monitor their computer activity.
At high school I almost never did any schoolwork and also used the computers for unrelated stuff. However I finished high school with good grades, and I'm currently finishing my university master's degree. I can't imagine the hell high school would have been if I was constantly monitored to be actively doing schoolwork.


One of my employers DID use this method. It's how they made sure we weren't using unnecessary bandwidth, or slacking off while on a phone call. It's a good QA method.

That being said, you =/= everybody. Just because you slacked off and managed to get good grades doesn't mean everybody does. There are people out there that unless they focus on what they're doing will be sidetracked constantly, and any form of temptation will cause that. I used to be one of those people, the minute I started doing something else my work suffered and I got terrible marks, the only thing that salvaged them sometimes was from me getting Hoffed, forcing me to re-focus on my work.

I don't understand why people are so upset about this method when it's at school. You're GIVEN a laptop, and the only expectation is that when you're at school, you do schoolwork on it. The only difference between this and a teacher walking around behind you looking at what you're doing, is you can't hide anything with this method, they see exactly what you're doing.

Porksandwichsays...

According to what I've read elsewhere, the school had an image of a sophomore with two pill shaped candies in his hand. So they tried to insinuate that he was a user and a dealer...and punish him for it. The parents are going after the school for this, attempting to get a restraining order to keep them from deleting the contents of the laptops so they can have a third party check the truth of their claims.

I suspect that unless the school mandates you do certain work on their programs/computers....that any kid living in a home with an active internet connection would also have a computer to work on there. So unless they need a specific piece of software, most kids borrowing the laptops won't have an active internet connection. So the school couldn't turn on the monitoring software, unless they do it before it goes out. In which case, the software logs pictures on it's own and saves them away until it goes back to the school or has some sort of net access. I just don't see how the software could work otherwise.

And if the kid did take a picture of himself and saved it on the laptop, he had to know it was going back to the school...so either the laptop makes second copies hidden somewhere on the laptop or the kid didn't think it was important enough to delete. Which means, that every time a laptop goes in...someone has to look at all the stuff the kid did on the computer..all the images, all the documents, all the webpages.

And there are allegations made in the same articles that other students noticed the green light on the webcam turning on and off on it's own as they used it. So I am leaning towards software randomly snapping pictures, to be reviewed later. And that is totally different than "turned on when stolen". I think they meant to say "Images are stored, but are only supposed to be used in case of theft."....but that'd make them sound really guilty, which I suspect they are.

I went through a school system where I never caused problems, but I had more than my share of teachers and principals threatening me with various things. One teacher wanted to fight me for asking questions during a science lab......principal wanted to give me a saturday session for being 15 minutes late to school because the snow plows hadn't ever plowed my portion of the district..I actually had to have a parent drive me because I felt it was too dangerous in my vehicle. Only thing that kept me from getting the punishment was 2-3 bus loads of people arriving 10 minutes after me...because of the lack of plowed roads. I have zero respect for schools and most of their staff because I feel a lot of them only work there so they can bully and control kids...not teach or help. Think of them as the bad policemen of the police force, except they have no oversight but they can't get away with physical punishment as easily as the cops.

sadicioussays...

I am for the monitoring activity on school property. It would be the same at work, with an employer wanting to protect all their assets (persons and property). In this case, they also use it to increase efficiency.

What I'm not for is the use of said technology to bypass existing privacy barriers. While in all possible private areas (Home, Washrooms, etc.), the ability to remotely monitor in any means, the person in possession of the property, should not be allowed. This is beyond simply making the person aware of the surveillance, or employer protocol.

In this example, the monitoring software should not function unless the laptop is on school grounds. By default, the monitoring software should be disabled by default and then policy to turn on during use, which can be tracked using a 'check in' or attendance system.

joopsays...

monitoring the DESKTOP is one thing, but activating the webcam serves absolutely zero purpose and is a gross invasion of privacy.

"i always like mess with them and take a picture"

what a disgusting perv, that bloke should be castrated immediately.

whatever stance you take, surely everyone agrees it should never be used outside of the school.

Shepppardsays...

>> ^joop:
monitoring the DESKTOP is one thing, but activating the webcam serves absolutely zero purpose and is a gross invasion of privacy.
"i always like mess with them and take a picture"
what a disgusting perv, that bloke should be castrated immediately.
whatever stance you take, surely everyone agrees it should never be used outside of the school.


Bit extreme, don't you think?

The example given with the picture being taken is he's taking it to show "Hey look.. you're being watched, get back to work" and notice how right after, she turns the webcam off and gets back to work?

He never even turns the webcam "On" the two girls shown already had a webcam going, the one was using it to as a mirror, and the second was using it for.. well, it doesn't say. All he's doing is looking at what's on the desktop.

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