This one isn't nearly as bad, because we know that Tom Cruise would never willingly make love to a woman in real life.

HAHA! lol and a LAWL are in order for that one DFT.

That was beautiful. I don't want it on the sift. Go to the movies. Rent the movie. Download it.

This is inappropriate here. I want a ruling from the powers that be.
*discuss

This video is being sent to Sift Talk for discussion - discuss requested by oxdottir.

I like sarzy, but I don't want to be threatened. There is no point to this clip other than two beautiful people having sex. Yes, it is part of a great film, or at least one that some people think is great, but this tiny clip doesn't show anything but sex. yes, I found it arousing. yes, there are thousands of other clips that are arousing that could be here and I hope won't be here.

Aww, does that mean Caligula is off the table? I was ready to flood the queue with all the distasteful bits.

Keeeding... but interested parties should hunt this down for a laugh:
http://www.videosift.com/video/Trailer-for-a-Remake-of-Gore-Vidals-Caligula

I guess I just don't see the problem with seeing two beautiful people naked. We have clips on this site that have people getting hit in the nuts. We have clips on this site of sleeping cats. We have clips on this site of prarie dogs looking over their shoulder.

I just don't get why the human body is somehow less worthy of being viewed than these other things.

This would not raise an eyebrow in most of Europe.

We have been conditioned to view nudity and sex as something to be ashamed of, which is bullshit. It's high time we challenge these backward notions of our society.

Good point, dft. I think that the taboo against depicting sex and related matters doesn't make much sense. It's an archaic relic of religious dogma that survived when others have died.

DFT is dead right about this. Why is this objectionable, but the countless videos on the sift of people getting beaten (both real and fictional) people fighting a cop, violentshootouts, gruesomeviolence, swearing, swearing and more swearing -- these are all okay, but show a boob and suddenly it's "OH WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN! THIS ISN'T A SITE I WANT ANY PART OF! OBSCENITY! OBSCENITY!" It's bullshit, and it's hypocrisy. Either get rid of every video I just linked to (and, as I'm sure you are aware, I barely scratched the surface), or put this back.

As for this video being nothing but two people having sex -- No. No. No it isn't. I shouldn't even have to defend it for the reasons I just mentioned, but no no no. I think this is a really great teaser. I love the way the music works so well with the visuals (something Kubrick is a master at), how the song slowly builds as the camera zooms in. I love the way it keeps cutting to the names with that particular font. I think it's pretty great, and not AT ALL in bad taste. It is no less valid than any other trailer or teaser, of which there are many on the sift.

If this were a website for children I would completely agree with you, but I think it's pretty clear that it isn't, and for some stupid reason ANY amount of adult content is okay here UNLESS it involves even the vaguest hint of sexuality. Bullshit. Complete and utter bullshit.

And oxdottir, I'm not mad at you (I know I may be coming off that way) just at the whole situation in general.

A big argument surround the last thread was that even though it didnt show sex, it was still porn because the rest of the movie was porn. Well this didnt come from porn. The definition of a porno is the filming of sex and watching it for the sexual gratification. This clip did not come from such a movie, nor did this scene mean to give anyone any sexual pleasure. Its not porn. nor was the last video, but its to late for that. So long as a video is tagged and titled appropriatly so that people who dont want to see it dont, then theres no issues. let it stay.

Technically, there is the human sexuality channel, and the site contains a fair bit of sexuality. I just think that we can be trusted to "sift" the videos that don't belong here from the ones that would benefit Videosift and web video in general. This video, at least by my standards, is acceptable, and so is the Kung-Fu one, although it's extremely borderline. If a video is considered to be unacceptable, it can be downvoted out of existence by the community. Maybe I'm thinking about this too Adam Smithianly, but those are my thoughts.

Yeah, I'm aware of the sexuality channel, I just meant that you can seemingly push every limit of decency here EXCEPT sexuality, at which point we turn into a bunch of 18th century housewives. I mean, I'm in complete agreement that porn shouldn't be allowed here, but THIS ISN'T PORN.

This is explicitly sexual. The rest of the movie may be great (I tried to watch it once, and I was just bored). This clip was posted in protest of the stating that sexually explicit material isn't appropriate on Videosift. It has no point other than that. Sure, it's beautiful, but it's nothing but sex, and that isn't the videosift we had until this: this is sexually explicit.

Did other clips discuss sex? Did other clips elude to sex? they did. Almost without exception, the other clips would have been legally hostable on youtube. This video is not hostable on youtube (apart from the issue of copyright). This is an inappropriate clip.

Think about this. Do you really want tons of clips of naked beautiful people here? Do you want the sex scenes from every single movie showing up here as art? I've seen objections to clips because of bare breasts. This isn't just bare breasts: this is sex. Is that what you want people coming to videosift for? You want people to make videos like the famous WoW one where people film some poor guy jerking off to videosift? I don't.

Until now, I could watch every single video on videosift without being forced to watch a video that had no point but to turn the viewer on.

Don't kid yourself: if this video stays, it makes a statement. As Sarzy said above, he wouldn't normally submit this. The whole reason he submitted it was to make a statement: let it stand and it CHANGES VideoSift.

I'm not against sex. I'm not against depections of sex. I'm not against sex on the web. This place was designed to not be about explicit sex, and it's one of the things I liked about it. I'm not going to let it change without kicking up a fuss. This is the fuss.

Now Dag and Lucky and I don't know who else will decide what's to be done here, and I am pretty sure they will pay attention to what people say. As far as I can tell, I'm pretty much alone in objecting to this video, so perhaps you will all get the change in videosift that this video represents. If you do, I believe the sift will be irreparably harmed; from your point of view, it may change for the better, but in either case, it has changed.

This is what would change (from the FAQ--note it prohibits "adult content"):

7. Where's the porn?

None of the allowed VideoSift hosts permit adult videos for content. Occasionally, one might slip through their moderators, in which case it could be posted to VideoSift. If this occurs, please let us know, and we will thank you profusely (and remove it).

Look: I'm not trying to change videosift or turn it into anything that it isn't. I'm just trying to point out the hypocrisy of saying that this isn't okay, but a video where a guy gets sawed in half or swears fifty times in one minute is. I think I've already gone over why I think that this is a good video and deserves to be here as much as any other. It isn't in bad taste. It is art, for Pete's sake (look at this, I'm so mad you've made me say "for Pete's sake"! What's happening here?? .

There are a ton of videos on the sift that I think are in bad taste / terrible / not worth watching. You know what I do? I don't watch them. I don't even click on them. But I will say it again: this video is not in bad taste. It's like Fjnbk just said -- if people don't like it, let them downvote it. Let the site do what it was designed to do.

And honestly, I really don't think this will lead to a rash of people saying "hey, I've got a nudie video I wanna submit too!" You know how long it took me, and how much I had to rack my brain just to find a video with nudity that I thought was tasteful and worthy of being on the sift? A long frickin' time.

Anyway, I'm done for now. I need to get some sleep. If I wake up tomorrow and find that this video has been discarded... well, I'll be disappointed, I'll say that. If I find that it's been returned and then discarded due to downvotes.... well then the sift would have spoken, and I'll be satisfied. (I don't think that'll happen though because this is a good video. Kubrick is awesome and so is this.)

THIS.

ISN'T.

PORN.

!!!



>> ^oxdottir:
This is what would change (from the FAQ--note it prohibits "adult content"):
7. Where's the porn?
None of the allowed VideoSift hosts permit adult videos for content. Occasionally, one might slip through their moderators, in which case it could be posted to VideoSift. If this occurs, please let us know, and we will thank you profusely (and remove it).

/\ (oxdottir) But this isn't explicit sex. It's not even sex. You see, when a man and woman love each other very much......

There is nothing wrong with sexuality oxdottir. Everyone you know is the result of sexuality. Many of the clips, particularly the commercials, on this site are designed to arose sexuality, and you've only chosen to speak up about it now.

Sexuality (minus) bare butt = good? Sexuality (plus) bare butt = bad?

If Dag thinks this will scare people off the site, then by all means he should protect his work, but maybe this is our chance to stand up to those kinky genocidal pilgrims. This is the same kind of shame that has women stoned to death in the middle east for showing a bit of ankle.

We don't have to accept this.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag.(show it anyway)

OK yeah- here's the deal. The Internet is full of porn - I've heard. When we started VideoSift - we intentionally decided to make VideoSift a "porn free zone" not necessarily because we hate porn, but just because pornish type content in online video is so prevalent.

I don't know how many times I've done this over the last 2 years, but pop over to VideoBomb and check out their "most watched" section to see why adult content is not a good idea on a video voting site.

Maybe this isn't porn- but it's sexual content designed to arouse. It definitely arouses me. (yes, it fails that test- it's Nicole Kidman's bum!) So I don't think this should be here.

That is a good point, oxdottir.

The appropriateness of the video does become questionable when it was specifically chosen for the sex and no other merits. Although normally, as I've said, I wouldn't object to it. It's a movie trailer, not just a pornographic film.

/\(to Dag, I'm typing way too slow to keep up here) Fair enough. Away it goes.

Dag, are you really comparing this to the naked bikini contest and oil wrestling at VideoBomb? Really??

I'm sad now.

And no, I didn't just pick the first sex video I found and throw it up here. I really and truly believe that this is a great video, something people should see and worthy of being on the site.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag.(show it anyway)

>> ^Sarzy:
I really and truly believe that this is a great video, something people should see and worthy of being on the site.


Really? The movie sure - but this particular scene is just a sex scene, taken out of context.

>> ^Sarzy:
And no, I didn't just pick the first sex video I found and throw it up here. I really and truly believe that this is a great video, something people should see and worthy of being on the site.


Sarzy, my agreeing it is a great scene does nothing to alleviate my strong feeling that it shouldn't be here. I can find tons of beautiful, magical, artistic sex scenes from world cinema. There are probably sites for appreciating that kind of content, but I don't want this to be one of them. Porn has a connotation of cheap : fair enough, don't call this porn; this is adult content. I don't know about this being something "people should see." I bet I can find tons of more moving, more arousing, more beautiful sex scenes, at least by my lights. There is no social crusade needed here. This isn't a dirty secret that needed to be exposed. Yes, Nicole kidman's character is more turned on by her own beauty than the touch of her lover. Not earth shattering. The Greeks talked about that a couple of thoousand years ago.

Sexuality is one of the greatest things about being human. There is so much pain and terror and hate in the world, we should celebrate beauty and love wherever we can find it. It really hurts me to see so much violence and bloodshed celebrated on the sift, while art and humanity and all that is best in the world is are passed-over or reviled and attacked. What is wrong with people who can't see the truth in this? Are your spirits so poisoned? Are your minds so clouded with puritan rhetoric and lies? Violence is a denial of life, while sexuality is a celebration and affirmation of the same.

Pornography is just another form of violence. Our community at the sift condemns it, but I hope that we would welcome something like this.

As for this movie bored me the first time I watched it too- I don't think I understood it, but on repeated viewing, like great art is wont to do, it stirred me on a spiritual level. The WHOLE MOVIE is an exploration of human sexuality. It explores many interesting, and sometimes dark domains but in the end it brings us back to love and faithfulness. What could be more life-affirming and beautiful?

Will it be * discarded, then?

Yes, really. Like I said before, I love the use of music, the camerawork, the cinematography in general, the way it cuts to the credits... But then Kubrick is my favourite director and I'm probably a bit biased.

>> ^dag:
>> ^Sarzy:
I really and truly believe that this is a great video, something people should see and worthy of being on the site.

Really? The movie sure - but this particular scene is just sex taken out of context.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag.(show it anyway)

I'm calling slippery slope ...

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag.(show it anyway)

Claiming that there is hypocrisy because we allow some videos with violence but bar adult content is a false analogy.

We didn't bar adult content because we think it morally "bad" - we banned it because there's an inundation of it on the net- and we wanted to set ourselves apart from that.

*slippery slope, dogs and cats living together, MASS HYSTERIA!

I think we can continue the conversation about societal shortcomings, but Dag is the boss (a very good one, IMO) and he's made his call. He's not calling you a perv Sarzy, he's just saying he'd like to keep the naughty bits off his site. Fair enough. I can respect that.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag.(show it anyway)

I don't think we should discard this until more people have had a chance to respond- it's an interesting discussion.

dag- No, no, no... I'm not claiming hypocrisy- hell we are all hypocrites in our own special way. Check out some of the videos I've posted lately- the Raging Bull scene comes to mind. What I am saying is that we as a community seem to upvote violence and guns (don't let me get started on the kitties), and ignore or condemn the art and beauty.

Oh, and for what it's worth, I only pleasure myself to the Canadian World Domination channel. I can't control myself, all you have to say is 'a-boot' and it's game over......

I still think it is rash (and unwise) to simply say NO NUDITY WHATSOEVER and not even allow things that are clearly art, but it is your site dag, and so if you say it must go, then it must go (and I do get your point about keeping this site free of "adult" content, though like I said, I wish that exceptions could be made for something like this. Oh well).

Where's the line? Nudity? Sexual gratification / titillation? Is that subjective? What is it that sends something over the edge into unacceptable? Context? Consider this and this and this and this and this and this. I would say at least 3 of those are for sexual gratification, some include comedy, and maybe other arguable merits (artistry, or whatever). Are they acceptable because they don't show nudity? What is it? What's instantly dismissable? Just clips from "adult movies"? I'm confused.

Sarzy, you posted this to get a rise out of the folks who called 'no' on the Kung Fu video and I find that kind of behaviour belligerent. It wasn't to educate or show another point of view, it was to force the hand again, of the entire community, about what's acceptable or not. That's gonna get pretty old after a while.

Forgive me, if I assume wrong here, but, if you were hoping that by my or anyone else's objection to this video, that you could show us up for the 18th century housewives you think we really are, then you can go fuck yourself, coz I'll tell you now, even though I agree with oxdottir, as far as staying on the sift goes, I don't have a problem with this one.

It doesn't look like porn. It wasn't made as a porn movie.
I'll tell you how generous I'm feeling right now, even if you posted it for belligerent reasons- If it gets to stay, I won't kick it out of the sexuality channel, how's that?

I didn't post this to get a rise out of anybody, I posted it because a lot of people commenting on that video had the disturbing opinion that nudity = bad, always and without fail. I tried (and failed, obviously) to show that this isn't the case.

Someone who would threaten to kick out a video due to a desire for reasonable debate and discourse doesn't merit power entrusted by the community to manage a channel. That's a dangerous line to cross. I would hope that ad-hominem attacks wouldn't be made here.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag.(show it anyway)

We've never said "no nudity" - there's a fair bit of nudity on the Sift - I'm not sure where you get the impression that's verboten. I'm out of this conversation for a while. I'd love to hear more opinions on it.


>> ^Sarzy:
I still think it is rash (and unwise) to simply say NO NUDITY WHATSOEVER and not even allow things that are clearly art, but it is your site dag, and so if you say it must go, then it must go (and I do get your point about keeping this site free of "adult" content, though like I said, I wish that exceptions could be made for something like this. Oh well).

perseph,

I don't think sarzy was being belligerent. Kubrick is clearly many notches higher on the class scale than that Chinese burlesque clip we saw yesterday. He was trying to make a point, but I don't believe he intended you any disrespect. I'm guessing he didn't even think it would be (this) controversial.

I think this dialog has been interesting and valuable; and we are now more or less clear on what is acceptable.

I'm with you on the housewife comment. That was ugly and gave you a perfect opening to lay the smack down.

I propose that the title and description be changed to be less vindictive, at least. I'm fine with keeping the video here to see how it will do, because it's erotica, not pornography.

A lot of the debate seems to be just residue from the Kung-Fu Sex video, but if we forget that one and judge the video on its own merits, I think it's reasonable to allow this to live.

That wasn't a threat. I said I was willing to look past his belligerent actions and let it stay, anyway. I don't kick out videos for any reason other than going against the guidelines posted. Check my record. I try to be consistent and I don't kick out videos for personal reasons. Porn is also mentioned in my guidelines. Check it out.

Ad hominem attacks? I don't like being like told I'm sexually repressed like some 18th century housewife. I think I do a pretty good job of managing the sexuality channel and I think some of my videos have the most sexually liberated ideas in them.

Sorry Sarzy, if you were offended. I always take things too personally. It's not a good trait for a place like this.

This is what would change (from the FAQ--note it prohibits "adult content"):

7. Where's the porn?

None of the allowed VideoSift hosts permit adult videos for content. Occasionally, one might slip through their moderators, in which case it could be posted to VideoSift. If this occurs, please let us know, and we will thank you profusely (and remove it).

Adult videos and adult content are not the same thing.

I've never seen this movie, and I don't know a damn thing about it.
With that said, and knowing that Kubrick is a genius, this clip makes me want to see the movie. Why? 1) Nikole Kidman is hot, but moreover 2) The look that she flashed the camera while Cruise was searching her body for the Mark of Xenu said to me "Go right ahead and do that, because I'm gonna kill you later" - or something to that effect.

To me, this clip tries less to arouse my wedding tackle than it does to arouse my curiosity. Why the murderous look in her eyes?

Once again, I vote for a stay.

Hell, even Issy voted for it. She was one of the proponents for tossing the other one.

persephone says it's OK.

Is Kubrick gonna pull through after all?

I wish the current elections were half as exiting as this.

persephone: I apologize for the 18th century housewife remark; I say stupid things sometimes (all the time?).

As for this video, I will change the title and description to something a bit less inflammatory, but I suspect that nothing can stay this video's impending execution. I honestly didn't think that this would cause even close to this level of controversy -- I mean, I knew there'd be a discussion but I sort of figured, what with it clearly being art and all, that it would be okay.

Anyway, I'm going to sleep now. For real this time.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag.(show it anyway)

Well jeez, I don't think I can discard this now - since it's been given the sexuality manager's "not porn" stamp of approval. I guess I'm the prude with a chubby.

This has not to do with the discussion, but I just thought of something. I wonder if Tom Cruise is wearing platforms in the scene because here they look about the same height, and he is about a foot shorter than Nicole.

Thanks for not discarding this. It's NOT porn!

I think the key thing that we are missing here is what porn is. Sex is not porn. Rule 7 about porn does not bar sexuality. (sure we dont want to see the act of sex, but thats besides the point.) The clip from the other day was not porn. Hell it barley belonged in the sexuality channel. Who acres what the clip came from, the clip t self was not porn. A pornographic film is designed to make me happy in the pants. Its for sexual gratification. Im alost positive, that clip itself does not do that. (well considering that 2g1c gets soem people off, theres always the exception)What I'm saying is, If people dont want to see something thats "edgy" then they dont have to click. There was sufficiant warning. Yesterdays clip shoud have stayed.

Come on folks, it´s not like we have a wave of porn submissions to deal with.
There will always be as many opinions as members on this site.

I agree it is near the borderline of appropriate but since it´s marked NSFW it is also easy to ignore for the prude.

I like the clip. I say keep it and get over it.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag.(show it anyway)

Why not - slippery slopes are exaggerated anyway. *return

Returning this video from Sift Talk - return requested by dag.

When our daughter was 18 months old, we moved to a town where we had no friends, family or baby-sitter and we wanted to see this movie. It was showing at the drive-in, so we figured that it would be ok to take her, because she'd fall asleep on the way. When we arrived, they wouldn't let us in, because we had a minor with us and it was rated R.

A while later when it came out on DVD, we finally got to see it and we realised we needn't have caused such a fuss at the gates-it wasn't worth it, afterall.

I did like the orgy scene, 'tho. That's always been a fantasy of mine.

Orgy scene? Now I have to see it.

I'm severely disappointed. And I don't think persephone said it was ok because she really thought it was ok. I think it was the million times repeated case of a woman hanging out with the guys who just can't take one more "you just don't have a sense of humor" or "you are way too sensitive" comment.

But the powers that be have spoken, and I'm done. I predict there will be other posts that I thought, until this morning, didn't belong here, and they will say as justification, "THIS video was acceptable, ergo mine is."

A small victory for reasoned debate and logic.

Now, if only real-life worked this way.

I'm amazed this was so controversial.

i think its a crappy clip. I was interested in seeing the movie and may still someday get around to it but this clip? no. The MOVIE may be art but THIS VIDEO is not;the aim is clearly to titillate the viewer into wanting to see the movie (as all teasers aim) and it does so through sex and nudity.

I resent the accusation that "no nudity" is called for - no one has said that. I resent that enforcing the rules is likened to prudery. You all knew the rules when you joined, just as I did, you had the chance to peruse the site before you joined and NOW you wanna cry "hypocrasy" becauase the clips YOU want stars for are under scrutiny? And if someone disagrees then its attack their self-esteem? wow.just wow.
and i agree with ox - i think persephone was being nice because thats what generally happens when you badger anyone enough. if its a female and you jump their sense of fair play? oh yeah, guaren-damn-teed she'll back off.
I downvoted because I think this is a crappy clip; as I always downvote when I think a clip is crappy. Nothing to do with nudity or sex even though I think this teaser IS overly-sexual - it's not porn so I wouldn';t have said it needs the boot. So take your accusations of prudery (you and everyone from kung fu porn HEY NOTICE THAT POST HAD THE WORD PORN IN THE TITLE?? ANYONE? ANYONE? BUELLER? BUELLER?) and stuff them up your juvenille arse.

I agree totally with what Dag said about not having porn on here setting VS apart.

However, I also have to agree that this is not necessarily porn. The other video was taken directly from a pornographic film, whereas this was from a respected movie. It's hard to make a call on these kind of things though. You've made your point well with this post, Sarzy. I'm not going to upvote it, as I've never seen the movie, sorry.

this movie? i found the most erotic stuff, the least interesting.

and the best acting in it, was by (notoriously sexy stud) Sydney Pollack.

sift any scene of his, it'll be better than this one.

I don't particularly want to be drawn back into this argument, because I think I've made all the points I want to make, pretty much as well as I can. However, a couple of things:

A) I did know the rules, I still do. No porn. This isn't porn. And I do apologize if I came off as accusatory or combative -- it was never my intent to bully anyone or come off as "juvenile".

and

B) I have to say, if I were persephone, I'd be a tad offended by the insinuations that she somehow kowtowed to the Big Scary Men because she was afraid to go against popular opinion. Give her a bit more credit than that.

It's a frickin' boob. Chill.

I liked the movie, and I like the trailer. I vote we keep it.

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