Couldn't she just remove the key to kill the engine?

I'd assumed the immediate solution to this problem was to knock the car into neutral. Is there something about traveling at that speed that makes it difficult to shift?

Switching off the ignition would, at least in older cars, cut the spark to the engine and stop it. The last car I had with an automatic transmission could be put into neutral whenever (my girlfriend used to always accidentally bump the lever somehow, you don't even need to push the button for that).

I really would like someone who knows about modern cars to explain to me how this is actually a problem short of just panicky people not doing much thinking. I can see getting in an accident because of a stuck throttle if you crashed before you had time to react, but actually travelling along like you're helpless doesn't make any sense.

I live where this took place. The local paper gave her account that the car would not go in to neutral, that because the car was keyless electric ignition, she couldn't turn it off, and she used the brakes to no avail. Doesn't make sense to me. Any motorheads able to enlighten us here?

>> ^syncron:

Couldn't she just remove the key to kill the engine?


(beaten by snoozedoctor)
No, this model of Kia Sorento had a proximity key, so she could start the car by just having the key fob on her person. I guess there is no way to turn off the car while it's in gear.

I'm finding inconsistent news articles on this story: one said the police don't know why the car finally stopped, while another article indicates the driver followed a troopers advice and lifted up the accelerator pedal while pressing on the brake, which made the car stop. But another article claimed the brakes were burned out already. The driver also put the car in neutral but that had no effect.

Kia Motors responded this was an isolated incident. I'm suspicious that Kia could do a thorough test on this in less than a day.

Hello class action suit.
>> ^PCGuy123:

>> ^syncron:
Couldn't she just remove the key to kill the engine?

No, this model of Kia Sorento had a proximity key, so she could start the car by just having the key fob on her person. I guess there is no way to turn off the car while it's in gear.
I'm finding inconsistent news articles on this story: one said the police don't know why the car finally stopped, while another article indicates the driver followed a troopers advice and lifted up the accelerator pedal while pressing on the brake, which made the car stop. But another article claimed the brakes were burned out already. The driver also put the car in neutral but that had no effect.
Kia Motors responded this was an isolated incident. I'm suspicious that Kia could do a thorough test on this in less than a day.

>> ^syncron:

Hello class action suit.
>> ^PCGuy123:
>> ^syncron:
Couldn't she just remove the key to kill the engine?

No, this model of Kia Sorento had a proximity key, so she could start the car by just having the key fob on her person. I guess there is no way to turn off the car while it's in gear.
I'm finding inconsistent news articles on this story: one said the police don't know why the car finally stopped, while another article indicates the driver followed a troopers advice and lifted up the accelerator pedal while pressing on the brake, which made the car stop. But another article claimed the brakes were burned out already. The driver also put the car in neutral but that had no effect.
Kia Motors responded this was an isolated incident. I'm suspicious that Kia could do a thorough test on this in less than a day.



You could be onto something: I wonder if all electric ignition cars need some kind of emergency cut-off switch installed, in case of situations like this one with the Kia Sorento?

I have electric ignition on my 2012 Toyota, need to check to see if there is any kind of override...

EDIT: on my keyless starter I have to press and hold the starter button for 3 seconds, which should cut the engine off. But that feature may not be the same for other keyless starter systems.

Apparently the NHTSA has proposed standardizing keyless ignition systems in an effort to help reduce accidents related to these systems, per this article: http://www.robertreeveslaw.com/blog/feds-propose-standardization-of-keyless-ignition-systems

From the article:
"The agency also wants to specify the amount of time necessary to push the control to stop the engine. A driver should be able to stop the car immediately in an emergency without having to wait too long to hold the ignition control in order to do so. Keyless ignition control systems have been linked partly to the sudden unintended acceleration crisis at Toyota. In August 2009, a Lexus being driven by an off-duty California Highway Patrol officer went out of control accelerated to excessive speeds and crashed. All 4 occupants of the car were killed instantly. In the Lexus that was involved in the accident, the driver needed to hold the keyless control for as long as 3 seconds in order to cut the engine. In 2007, there was a similar accident involving a Honda Accord. The driver wanted to switch off the engine in an emergency using the keyless ignition, but could not do so."

There should definitely be a way to kill the ignition if there isn't, and it should not be connected to a microcontroller or anything, but an actual physical interlock breaking the circuit to the spark plugs. I'd guess that the modern security systems make this difficult though. I'd still want it though.

ALL of the cars with electronic keyless ignition can be turned off by HOLDING DOWN THE MOTHER FARKING BUTTON. Yes I said ALL. It's 2-4 seconds depending on the model.

Where is Reeves when you need him

Heh reminds me of the 1997 movie Runaway car, where this car wouldnt go into neutral or turn off. http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/runaway-car/

there isnt a car made in the world where the engine can overpower the brakes. every one of these runaway car stories is bull shit.

>> ^robdot:

there isnt a car made in the world where the engine can overpower the brakes. every one of these runaway car stories is bull shit.


What, new brakes or old brakes? This sounds like bollocks to me. The quality of the engine is not linked to the quality of the brakes so there's no way to know that for sure.

However i don't understand how a car can be in neutral and still be driving. When i put my (manual) car in neutral, the clutch plate is disengaged, there's no driving force connected to the wheels. I wouldn't know much about manuals, but if it went into "neutral" and was still driving then the gears must have been showing wrong?

these stories are all bullshit. you can not overpower the brakes in any car with the engine. ITS NOT FUCKING POSSIBLE !!! its always operator error.

Ive tried shutting off the engine in my vehicle mid ride, it also happened to shut off the power steering. at high speeds, not a good idea.

>> ^aimpoint:

Ive tried shutting off the engine in my vehicle mid ride, it also happened to shut off the power steering. at high speeds, not a good idea.


Not a good idea at high speeds? You don't really need powersteering at highway speeds, at all. What IS dangerous when messing with your ignition key is the fact that the steering wheel lock will engage if you pull your key out of the ignition, and THAT'S not very much fun in high speeds.

>> ^robdot:

these stories are all bullshit. you can not overpower the brakes in any car with the engine. ITS NOT FUCKING POSSIBLE !!! its always operator error.
[citation needed]



Oh, hey, how about this?

>> ^sillma:
Not a good idea at high speeds? You don't really need powersteering at highway speeds, at all. What IS dangerous when messing with your ignition key is the fact that the steering wheel lock will engage if you pull your key out of the ignition, and THAT'S not very much fun in high speeds.
Most modern vehicles will only engage the wheel lock while in Park.

Also, a question.

IF your car won't go into neutral, and IF your car won't allow you to switch it off (which the 'hold on/off' for 3 seconds does seem to be the universal OFF method for electric ignitions), what would be wrong with planting your foot on the breaks AND putting on the parking break?

>> ^spoco2:

Also, a question.
IF your car won't go into neutral, and IF your car won't allow you to switch it off (which the 'hold on/off' for 3 seconds does seem to be the universal OFF method for electric ignitions), what would be wrong with planting your foot on the breaks AND putting on the parking break?


brakes* brake*

That would be pointless and dangerous and you would most likely spin out of control. The brake pedal (pneumatic, and often electronic) is better at applying pressure to the braking surface than the cable-driven e-brake which only applies to the rear wheels. You also do not want to have more brake resistance in the rear, which is what that would likely create, causing loss of control.

I must say, however, that if that was indeed a woman driver, she's breaking every single stereotype here.

>> ^spoco2:

Also, a question.
IF your car won't go into neutral, and IF your car won't allow you to switch it off (which the 'hold on/off' for 3 seconds does seem to be the universal OFF method for electric ignitions), what would be wrong with planting your foot on the breaks AND putting on the parking break?
I suspect the problem with the parking brake is that you're more likely to lose control of the vehicle.

The parking break only connects to the rear wheels (usually, anyways). If the rear wheels lock before the front wheels, the car will spin. In a front wheel drive car, that would be almost immediate.

>> ^ForgedReality:
I must say, however, that if that was indeed a woman driver, she's breaking every single stereotype here.I think she's defying some of them. While she was successful in avoiding an accident, time may tell whether this was all her fault in the first place. (Also, yeah..."brake".)

>> ^ReverendTed:

>> ^ForgedReality:
I must say, however, that if that was indeed a woman driver, she's breaking every single stereotype here.I think she's defying some of them. While she was successful in avoiding an accident, time may tell whether this was all her fault in the first place. (Also, yeah..."brake".)


So you're saying you think she might have been at fault for the accelerator getting stuck? These days, everything is electronically controlled, and things can happen. Plus, she was driving a Kia.

>> ^PCGuy123:

>> ^syncron:
Couldn't she just remove the key to kill the engine?

(beaten by snoozedoctor)
No, this model of Kia Sorento had a proximity key, so she could start the car by just having the key fob on her person. I guess there is no way to turn off the car while it's in gear.
I'm finding inconsistent news articles on this story: one said the police don't know why the car finally stopped, while another article indicates the driver followed a troopers advice and lifted up the accelerator pedal while pressing on the brake, which made the car stop. But another article claimed the brakes were burned out already. The driver also put the car in neutral but that had no effect.
Kia Motors responded this was an isolated incident. I'm suspicious that Kia could do a thorough test on this in less than a day.


Just FYI, I believe you can turn off the car in Keyless ignition systems by holding in the button for x-seconds. Just knowledge that might help if this happens to anyone else.

They gave the real lesson here at the end... DONT TRAVEL IN TEH PASSING LANE JUST 'CAUSE ITS THERE

I wonder if throwing the key fob out the window would disable the engine? At some point the car should notice there is no valid key anymore...

Or this could be a very elaborate way to get out of a ticket... My accelerator is stuck!!!

>> ^ForgedReality:
So you're saying you think she might have been at fault for the accelerator getting stuck?I'm saying I can't rule the possibility out.

Two things come to mind:
1) "Unintended acceleration"---the cognitive panic of someone THINKING they are pressing on the brake as hard as they can when they are actually pressing on the accelerator as hard as they can (well known psychological phenomena known as cognitive dissonance usually follows these episodes---"I cannot have just run over my grandson by pressing as hard as I could on the accelerator so the only possible explanation is that the car ran away and the brakes failed"

or

2) Large floor mats, either after market (to catch rain/snow) or loosened from the floor pan securing pins (cleaning? sloppy?) pin the accelerator to the floor. Spring is too weak to return it---voila. Run away car.

And in their panic, they can't get on the brakes hard enough, because, yes, I believe it's true, there is no production car, assuming a roadworthy state BEFORE such an episode, can "burn out" its brakes or "run away" from a full application of the brake pedal.