Business has doubled since the incident? I really don't understand why religious people glorify in the hatred of others. I've seen it firsthand in extended family members and it chills me. How can Christians ignore the gospel of loving thy neighbor and judge not and all those other fancy things their prophet said in their own religious text?

@shinyblurry, how do you reconcile that hypocrisy within yourself? You're the only person I know to ask here, seeing as you called me a harlot and all that. When you judge another person and go directly against the words set down in your bible, do you immediately ask your god to forgive you or what?

Edit: I'll throw in one of my favorite quotes to further illustrate the rampant hypocrisy.

“If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition and then admit that we just don't want to do it.” - Stephen Colbert

If a man walked in and wanted to order a cake celebrating the fact that he repeatedly cheats on his wife, do you think the owner would make him one? I highly doubt it. He simply believes that living a homosexual lifestyle is a sin, just as living a lifestyle cheating on your spouse is also a sin. It's not that hard to understand folks.

And nowhere does he state that he hates people. The hatred flag is really getting old.

And "onkneesforjesus.blogspot.com" isn't gay?

@Nexxus Even without the hatred tag, what about 'judge not lest ye be judged.'? The bigotry is really getting old.

Edit: Potentially relevant, I used to decorate cakes and one time a customer wanted a cake that said, "Eat shit." with a penguin standing next to a pile of poo, replete with flies. I made it, of course. Because that was my job.

If I do something or say something wrong to a person, I ask forgiveness from both my God and the person I did it to, as I did with you. The great commandments are to love the Lord thy God with all of your heart, all of your soul, all of your mind, and all of your strength, and also, to love thy neighbor as yourself. I think a Christian who does something wrong should do what is reasonable to reconcile with people who they have wronged.

As far as the cake goes, the man didn't refuse service because the men were gay. He was more than happy to make them a cake, just not a gay wedding cake. I don't see how you're inserting the word hatred into the discussion. The man has a sincere conviction that gay marriage is wrong and he doesn't want to participate in it. The question really being posed is, is this unchristian not to make this cake?

For one, Jesus didn't tell us not to judge, He told us not to judge hypocritically. That is what is meant by the log in someones eye versus the splinter in the other. Christians are to judge all things to see if they line up to the word of God. Now, would you think it is wrong for a Pastor to refuse to perform a same-sex marriage ceremony? I don't think you could say it was unchristian for the Pastor to refuse to do it, on the basis of his moral conviction. Well, this baker also had a moral conviction about supplying the cake for the ceremony. His conviction is to make wedding cakes for heterosexual weddings only because he believes gay marriage is immoral. I really don't see anything wrong with this; it isn't loving your neighbor to help someone along in their sin. Neither do I think he should be forced to violate his conscience by lending his reputation to something he knows God disapproves of.

In the name of tolerance, people are coming out of the woodwork to bash Christian businesses like Chick-fil-a on the basis of their beliefs about homosexuality being a sin. A lot of these are setups; the gay community gets wind of a Christian business who has strong convictions, and then they send someone in to get refused so they can go to the media and create a bunch of hype and drama and generate sympathy. In the end, the hatred and intolerance seems to be entirely one sided. Christians don't hate gays; Jesus died as much for them as He did for the rest of us. Christians who do hate gays are simply ignorant and wrong and they should be chastised. That doesn't mean you should indict Christianity as a whole, because true Christians recognize that we've all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

>> ^UsesProzac:

Business has doubled since the incident? I really don't understand why religious people glorify in the hatred of others. I've seen it firsthand in extended family members and it chills me. How can Christians ignore the gospel of loving thy neighbor and judge not and all those other fancy things their prophet said in their own religious text?
@shinyblurry, how do you reconcile that hypocrisy within yourself? You're the only person I know to ask here, seeing as you called me a harlot and all that. When you judge another person and go directly against the words set down in your bible, do you immediately ask your god to forgive you or what?
Edit: I'll throw in one of my favorite quotes to further illustrate the rampant hypocrisy.
“If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition and then admit that we just don't want to do it.” - Stephen Colbert

>> ^shinyblurry

Blah blah blah

Wow, he even denied service to someone that looks exactly like Jesus!

" I really don't understand why religious people glorify in the hatred of others."

Using the same hyperbole that you do, I can paint all non-religious people with as broad a brush by saying "I don't understand why all non-religious people are violent terrorists and threaten hard working families with death threats."

I'm religious and I wouldn't deny business to somebody for being gay just like you didn't (and wouldn't) call in a death threat to this guy.
>> ^UsesProzac:

Business has doubled since the incident? I really don't understand why religious people glorify in the hatred of others. I've seen it firsthand in extended family members and it chills me. How can Christians ignore the gospel of loving thy neighbor and judge not and all those other fancy things their prophet said in their own religious text?
@shinyblurry, how do you reconcile that hypocrisy within yourself? You're the only person I know to ask here, seeing as you called me a harlot and all that. When you judge another person and go directly against the words set down in your bible, do you immediately ask your god to forgive you or what?
Edit: I'll throw in one of my favorite quotes to further illustrate the rampant hypocrisy.
“If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition and then admit that we just don't want to do it.” - Stephen Colbert

" Christians are to judge all things..." tl;dr


This one trick works everytime. Ask the religious person if they would kill you if their god(s) told them to. Either they will stick with their faith and you can be satisfied they are insane... or they refuse to follow their faith... and pick and choose what to do based on convenience... either way, it exposes the insanity quite quickly.

This is just plain wrong. Not based on love and therefore not based on the word of Christ. In a Christian sense the man the baker saw as less than human is a son of God just like Jesus so it is just as bad as rejecting Jesus. It is also illegal to operate a business that is open to the public and discriminate like this.

what about the 9th commandment???

"Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor...nor deny him cake."

Just because he didn't say hate doesn't mean it isn't in him. To act like that, to willfully turn away a customer because you look down upon them and their lifestyle? That's bigotry, intolerance of another. Especially in light of the bible explicitly saying not to judge others.

Terrorism, really? You're silly.

"Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's"

I bring this up because I feel that servicing a customer is part of operating inside of society and being an obedient and humble person, just as your religious text wants you to be.

Wielding judgement is for your god alone.

>> ^deedub81:

" I really don't understand why religious people glorify in the hatred of others."
Using the same hyperbole that you do, I can paint all non-religious people with as broad a brush by saying "I don't understand why all non-religious people are violent terrorists and threaten hard working families with death threats."
I'm religious and I wouldn't deny business to somebody for being gay just like you didn't (and wouldn't) call in a death threat to this guy.
>> ^UsesProzac:
Business has doubled since the incident? I really don't understand why religious people glorify in the hatred of others. I've seen it firsthand in extended family members and it chills me. How can Christians ignore the gospel of loving thy neighbor and judge not and all those other fancy things their prophet said in their own religious text?
@shinyblurry, how do you reconcile that hypocrisy within yourself? You're the only person I know to ask here, seeing as you called me a harlot and all that. When you judge another person and go directly against the words set down in your bible, do you immediately ask your god to forgive you or what?
Edit: I'll throw in one of my favorite quotes to further illustrate the rampant hypocrisy.
“If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition and then admit that we just don't want to do it.” - Stephen Colbert

It is a private business and can chose not to sell to anyone for any reason they choose. They don't HAVE to sell a cake to them. That doesn't make it okay to be hateful and bigoted, but there is no lawsuit here.

I'd love a business to refuse service to a christian man/woman couple in the same way. Sadly, it would be the scandal of the decade.

>> ^Hive13:

It is a private business and can chose not to sell to anyone for any reason they choose. They don't HAVE to sell a cake to them. That doesn't make it okay to be hateful and bigoted, but there is no lawsuit here.
I'd love a business to refuse service to a christian man/woman couple in the same way. Sadly, it would be the scandal of the decade.


No one was arguing that they don't have a right to do what they want. I think the argument was they still shouldn't be dicks. Which makes sense in a world with "Don't be a Dick" rules. I would tell these Christians not to be a dick, but instead suck one!

Also shaming people into doing the right thing is fine in my view, but what happened here was they got celebrated for doing the wrong thing. This is the country we have, we're free to be assholes. Christians are going to tear our country down bit by bit from education to civilization, until we're nothing but beholden to their idiocy.

I for one hope all the scientists and engineers who don't believe in this bullshit go to Canada, make them a world power and stop operating in a country that celebrates morons.

>> ^shinyblurry:

In the name of tolerance, people are coming out of the woodwork to bash Christian businesses like Chick-fil-a on the basis of their beliefs about homosexuality being a sin. A lot of these are setups; the gay community gets wind of a Christian business who has strong convictions, and then they send someone in to get refused so they can go to the media and create a bunch of hype and drama and generate sympathy. In the end, the hatred and intolerance seems to be entirely one sided. Christians don't hate gays; Jesus died as much for them as He did for the rest of us. Christians who do hate gays are simply ignorant and wrong and they should be chastised. That doesn't mean you should indict Christianity as a whole, because true Christians recognize that we've all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
>> ^UsesProzac:
Business has doubled since the incident? I really don't understand why religious people glorify in the hatred of others. I've seen it firsthand in extended family members and it chills me. How can Christians ignore the gospel of loving thy neighbor and judge not and all those other fancy things their prophet said in their own religious text?
@shinyblurry, how do you reconcile that hypocrisy within yourself? You're the only person I know to ask here, seeing as you called me a harlot and all that. When you judge another person and go directly against the words set down in your bible, do you immediately ask your god to forgive you or what?
Edit: I'll throw in one of my favorite quotes to further illustrate the rampant hypocrisy.
“If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition and then admit that we just don't want to do it.” - Stephen Colbert



Rosa Parks was a set up as well. So would me saying right now, "So you're against Rosa Park's fight for equality you fucking racist." Either it's right or it's wrong, discrimination is wrong doesn't matter what tool you use to shine a light on it, just that it's represented fairly. Chick fil A was a situation where the president said that shit himself, that's not a set up, that's putting your face out their and people bitch slapping the shit out of you.

First of all, it wasn't discrimination. He didn't refuse to serve them because they are gay. He refused to make them a gay wedding cake. Little bit of a difference there. The nastiness that comes out of people when they think they have an excuse to attack Christians is the real story. Immediately after the chick-fil-a controversy you had so much vile filth posted in comments and message boards, even celebrity tweets, viciously maligning Christians. That's just fine with people, but it's not okay that a man will only bake heterosexual wedding cakes. It's a hypocritical double-standard.



>> ^Yogi:

>> ^shinyblurry:
In the name of tolerance, people are coming out of the woodwork to bash Christian businesses like Chick-fil-a on the basis of their beliefs about homosexuality being a sin. A lot of these are setups; the gay community gets wind of a Christian business who has strong convictions, and then they send someone in to get refused so they can go to the media and create a bunch of hype and drama and generate sympathy. In the end, the hatred and intolerance seems to be entirely one sided. Christians don't hate gays; Jesus died as much for them as He did for the rest of us. Christians who do hate gays are simply ignorant and wrong and they should be chastised. That doesn't mean you should indict Christianity as a whole, because true Christians recognize that we've all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
>> ^UsesProzac:
Business has doubled since the incident? I really don't understand why religious people glorify in the hatred of others. I've seen it firsthand in extended family members and it chills me. How can Christians ignore the gospel of loving thy neighbor and judge not and all those other fancy things their prophet said in their own religious text?
@shinyblurry, how do you reconcile that hypocrisy within yourself? You're the only person I know to ask here, seeing as you called me a harlot and all that. When you judge another person and go directly against the words set down in your bible, do you immediately ask your god to forgive you or what?
Edit: I'll throw in one of my favorite quotes to further illustrate the rampant hypocrisy.
“If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition and then admit that we just don't want to do it.” - Stephen Colbert


Rosa Parks was a set up as well. So would me saying right now, "So you're against Rosa Park's fight for equality you fucking racist." Either it's right or it's wrong, discrimination is wrong doesn't matter what tool you use to shine a light on it, just that it's represented fairly. Chick fil A was a situation where the president said that shit himself, that's not a set up, that's putting your face out their and people bitch slapping the shit out of you.

>> ^shinyblurry:

First of all, it wasn't discrimination. He didn't refuse to serve them because they are gay. He refused to make them a gay wedding cake. Little bit of a difference there. The nastiness that comes out of people when they think they have an excuse to attack Christians is the real story. Immediately after the chick-fil-a controversy you had so much vile filth posted in comments and message boards, even celebrity tweets, viciously maligning Christians. That's just fine with people, but it's not okay that a man will only bake heterosexual wedding cakes. It's a hypocritical double-standard.


Don't try that shit, it's discrimination, you know exactly why he was refusing to make a gay wedding cake that type of lying isn't going to help your argument. 2nd it's not a double-standard to hand someone their ass when they say something stupid. You do something counter to the way a society has been going you get shouted down in the public square. We're moving towards legalizing gay marriage and giving equal rights to all americans, you go counter to that you're gonna get yelled at.

Also filth posted on message boards? Is this your first day on the internet? I'm pretty sure Justin Beiber hasn't done anything to anyone on the internet and still he's talked about worse than Hitler. You're in hyperbole country mother fucker, deal with it.

Now you want to continue discriminating against people and not doing your job to make cakes or hand out birth control pills than yeah your life is gonna be made harder. Too bad because you're lives are already way too easy as it is. Complaining about christian discrimination, bitch there's children dying in Africa, shut the fuck up.

Don't try that shit, it's discrimination, you know exactly why he was refusing to make a gay wedding cake that type of lying isn't going to help your argument. 2nd it's not a double-standard to hand someone their ass when they say something stupid. You do something counter to the way a society has been going you get shouted down in the public square. We're moving towards legalizing gay marriage and giving equal rights to all americans, you go counter to that you're gonna get yelled at.

Sorry but you're wrong, it isn't discrimination. They were still able to do business there if they wanted another kind of cake, and I'm sure they're still welcome to do so. The man doesn't want to make a gay wedding cake because he believes marriage is between a man and a woman, and that gay marriage is immoral.

Also filth posted on message boards? Is this your first day on the internet? I'm pretty sure Justin Beiber hasn't done anything to anyone on the internet and still he's talked about worse than Hitler. You're in hyperbole country mother fucker, deal with it.

Now you want to continue discriminating against people and not doing your job to make cakes or hand out birth control pills than yeah your life is gonna be made harder. Too bad because you're lives are already way too easy as it is. Complaining about christian discrimination, bitch there's children dying in Africa, shut the fuck up.

So discrimination against Christians is okay, because people talk trash all the time and children are dying in Africa? In other words, you just wave your hand and make excuses..proving that you don't really think discrimination is wrong, so long as its against people you disagree with. It's clear you want equal rights for everyone except Christians.

>> ^Yogi

Nexxus is spot on. This has nothing to do with hatred. This has nothing to do with bigotry. It's simply not wanting to sell your services and goods to something you're morally opposed to.

It's significant here that it's a wedding cake that's requested as well. As a Christian, if that gay couple came in to my store (hypothetical - I don't actually have a store) and just asked for a loaf of bread, we'd do business just like anyone else. But if they requested a wedding cake for a same-sex marriage, like the owner, I would refuse. I would not want my business to directly support an institution of which I am morally opposed. There's no hatred behind it - how could there be? I don't even know those people. It's not bigotry either, because I'm still fine with doing business in other ways - I just don't want my business to directly support something I'm against.

This made me chuckle: "He refused to make them a gay wedding cake."

Hey, this cake tastes a bit funny - Oh My God This Cake Is GAY!!!

I have to chuckle when the guy talks about how he's doing more business now because of his views. The same was said about Chik-Fil-A.

Yeah, they're doing more business *now* because it's been publicized. The strong supporters on the right are going to come in droves to support, and the strong supporters on the left are going to...not shop there...ever again and all that money that he could be raking in had he been indifferent is forever lost to him. Not exactly the smartest business decision. In addition...they're supporting him today...but yeah, even the strongest anti-gay is not going to keep buying weddings cakes or keep buying from chik-fil-a as time goes on. It's not sustainable. America's collective ADD is going to kick in and they'll move on to the next outrage. Except now these businesses have shot themselves in the foot because the people who are denied service will continue to not shop there. Do the Anti-Gay supporters plan on buying a wedding cake and eating at Chik-Fil-A every day? Once a week? once a month? Not going to happen. Besides..sounds like too much of a handout to me. Funny how supposedly the supporters of a free-market suddenly don't think free-market principles shouldn't apply to them.

It also galls me from a strictly statistical and historical point of view. Regardless of what side of the aisle you're on, you have to be deaf, blind, and dumb not to realize which way the winds are shifting...and that they aren't going to be shifting back. Support for gay marriage is over 50 percent now. In 5 years, do you honestly think it will be any less? In 10?? In 20??

The CEO of Chik-Fil-A is not long for this earth, and the wedding cake store owner isn't exactly young. Old ideas get replaced by new ones all the time. The sad thing is that we have to wait for enough people to die for change to really occur because they're too stubborn to see reality.

>> ^Morganth:

Nexxus is spot on. This has nothing to do with hatred. This has nothing to do with bigotry. It's simply not wanting to sell your services and goods to something you're morally opposed to.

Being "morally opposed to" something isn't a "get out of jail free card". You must justify your moral opposition to something. In this case, your justification for being opposed to gay marriage is discrimination and bigotry. Explain to me how this is different to a racist refusing to supply a cake for an interracial wedding? You might be "morally opposed" to interracial marriage, but that doesn't make it ok. The rest of us get to stand up and call you out for your bigoted views.

>> ^Morganth:
It's significant here that it's a wedding cake that's requested as well. As a Christian, if that gay couple came in to my store (hypothetical - I don't actually have a store) and just asked for a loaf of bread, we'd do business just like anyone else. But if they requested a wedding cake for a same-sex marriage, like the owner, I would refuse. I would not want my business to directly support an institution of which I am morally opposed. There's no hatred behind it - how could there be? I don't even know those people. It's not bigotry either, because I'm still fine with doing business in other ways - I just don't want my business to directly support something I'm against.


I 100% support your right to refuse support to things you are against. If you don't want to make a cake for corrupt business or a KKK meeting, go for it.

But I then get to judge you for what you are against. I'm sick of this pussy-footing around, where people have to defend themselves and the left goes on about how being gay isn't a choice, as if it was some terrible affliction that gays are stuck with. I don't give a shit if being gay is a genetic thing or if someone wakes up one day and decides "you know what? I'm switching teams today". Honestly what business is it of mine?

So yeah, you don't get to be "morally opposed" to gay marriage as if that's ok. It is the very definition of discrimination, plain and simple. You can claim it all you want, but as time moves on, history will judge your morals to be as fucked up as those who opposed civil rights, women's suffrage and divorce.

Double posted.

>> ^shinyblurry:

Don't try that shit, it's discrimination, you know exactly why he was refusing to make a gay wedding cake that type of lying isn't going to help your argument. 2nd it's not a double-standard to hand someone their ass when they say something stupid. You do something counter to the way a society has been going you get shouted down in the public square. We're moving towards legalizing gay marriage and giving equal rights to all americans, you go counter to that you're gonna get yelled at.
Sorry but you're wrong, it isn't discrimination. They were still able to do business there if they wanted another kind of cake, and I'm sure they're still welcome to do so. The man doesn't want to make a gay wedding cake because he believes marriage is between a man and a woman, and that gay marriage is immoral.
Also filth posted on message boards? Is this your first day on the internet? I'm pretty sure Justin Beiber hasn't done anything to anyone on the internet and still he's talked about worse than Hitler. You're in hyperbole country mother fucker, deal with it.
Now you want to continue discriminating against people and not doing your job to make cakes or hand out birth control pills than yeah your life is gonna be made harder. Too bad because you're lives are already way too easy as it is. Complaining about christian discrimination, bitch there's children dying in Africa, shut the fuck up.
So discrimination against Christians is okay, because people talk trash all the time and children are dying in Africa? In other words, you just wave your hand and make excuses..proving that you don't really think discrimination is wrong, so long as its against people you disagree with. It's clear you want equal rights for everyone except Christians.
>> ^Yogi


So blacks weren't being discriminated against on the buses and water fountains, because, hey, they could still ride...just not in the front of the bus and hey, they could get a drink...just not at this particular water fountain.

Sounds like the sequel to separate but equal.

No, that's not the definition of discrimination. And it's not the definition of bigotry either. You cannot simply cry "bigot" whenever someone else's beliefs aren't the same as yours. >> ^ChaosEngine:

>> ^Morganth:
Nexxus is spot on. This has nothing to do with hatred. This has nothing to do with bigotry. It's simply not wanting to sell your services and goods to something you're morally opposed to.
Being "morally opposed to" something isn't a "get out of jail free card". You must justify your moral opposition to something. In this case, your justification for being opposed to gay marriage is discrimination and bigotry. Explain to me how this is different to a racist refusing to supply a cake for an interracial wedding? You might be "morally opposed" to interracial marriage, but that doesn't make it ok. The rest of us get to stand up and call you out for your bigoted views.
>> ^Morganth:
It's significant here that it's a wedding cake that's requested as well. As a Christian, if that gay couple came in to my store (hypothetical - I don't actually have a store) and just asked for a loaf of bread, we'd do business just like anyone else. But if they requested a wedding cake for a same-sex marriage, like the owner, I would refuse. I would not want my business to directly support an institution of which I am morally opposed. There's no hatred behind it - how could there be? I don't even know those people. It's not bigotry either, because I'm still fine with doing business in other ways - I just don't want my business to directly support something I'm against.

I 100% support your right to refuse support to things you are against. If you don't want to make a cake for corrupt business or a KKK meeting, go for it.
But I then get to judge you for what you are against. I'm sick of this pussy-footing around, where people have to defend themselves and the left goes on about how being gay isn't a choice, as if it was some terrible affliction that gays are stuck with. I don't give a shit if being gay is a genetic thing or if someone wakes up one day and decides "you know what? I'm switching teams today". Honestly what business is it of mine?
So yeah, you don't get to be "morally opposed" to gay marriage as if that's ok. It is the very definition of discrimination, plain and simple. You can claim it all you want, but as time moves on, history will judge your morals to be as fucked up as those who opposed civil rights, women's suffrage and divorce.

If we treated christians the same as their intellectual peers, cattle, we could put them straight to work and sidestep this tired argument about their so-called rights.

Oh, but I can when they use those beliefs to deny me what is owed, like a service, merely because I hold to a different belief.

They would not tolerate a customer's request because they were morally opposed to the customer's personal beliefs. That's the fucking definition of bigotry.

>> ^Morganth:

No, that's not the definition of discrimination. And it's not the definition of bigotry either. You cannot simply cry "bigot" whenever someone else's beliefs aren't the same as yours. >> ^ChaosEngine:
>> ^Morganth:
Nexxus is spot on. This has nothing to do with hatred. This has nothing to do with bigotry. It's simply not wanting to sell your services and goods to something you're morally opposed to.
Being "morally opposed to" something isn't a "get out of jail free card". You must justify your moral opposition to something. In this case, your justification for being opposed to gay marriage is discrimination and bigotry. Explain to me how this is different to a racist refusing to supply a cake for an interracial wedding? You might be "morally opposed" to interracial marriage, but that doesn't make it ok. The rest of us get to stand up and call you out for your bigoted views.
>> ^Morganth:
It's significant here that it's a wedding cake that's requested as well. As a Christian, if that gay couple came in to my store (hypothetical - I don't actually have a store) and just asked for a loaf of bread, we'd do business just like anyone else. But if they requested a wedding cake for a same-sex marriage, like the owner, I would refuse. I would not want my business to directly support an institution of which I am morally opposed. There's no hatred behind it - how could there be? I don't even know those people. It's not bigotry either, because I'm still fine with doing business in other ways - I just don't want my business to directly support something I'm against.

I 100% support your right to refuse support to things you are against. If you don't want to make a cake for corrupt business or a KKK meeting, go for it.
But I then get to judge you for what you are against. I'm sick of this pussy-footing around, where people have to defend themselves and the left goes on about how being gay isn't a choice, as if it was some terrible affliction that gays are stuck with. I don't give a shit if being gay is a genetic thing or if someone wakes up one day and decides "you know what? I'm switching teams today". Honestly what business is it of mine?
So yeah, you don't get to be "morally opposed" to gay marriage as if that's ok. It is the very definition of discrimination, plain and simple. You can claim it all you want, but as time moves on, history will judge your morals to be as fucked up as those who opposed civil rights, women's suffrage and divorce.

>> ^Hive13:

It is a private business and can chose not to sell to anyone for any reason they choose. They don't HAVE to sell a cake to them. That doesn't make it okay to be hateful and bigoted, but there is no lawsuit here.
I'd love a business to refuse service to a christian man/woman couple in the same way. Sadly, it would be the scandal of the decade.


I have to agree with Hive.

This is not the same as Chick-Fil-A where the CEO COO or whatever is donating money to oppose civil rights. This is just some small company who opposes gay marriage so they won't make a gay cake.

If business is going UP at this bakery it's pretty sad but I hope that gay couple moves obviously they are not wanted in that community

>> ^Morganth:

No, that's not the definition of discrimination. And it's not the definition of bigotry either. You cannot simply cry "bigot" whenever someone else's beliefs aren't the same as yours.

dis·crim·i·na·tion   [dih-skrim-uh-ney-shuhn]
noun
1. an act or instance of discriminating.
2. treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit: racial and religious intolerance and discrimination.

The bakery is refusing to bake them a wedding cake because they are gay. They are making a distinction against a person based on their sexual orientation.

Now, care to try that again?

If polygamy were legal, would it be a civil rights issue if he refused to bake one for a polygamous wedding? How about a cake for someone wanted to marry their dog, or their car? He believes marriage is between a man and a woman and refuses to make a cake for any other kind of wedding. This has nothing to do with their sexual orientation, it has to do with his moral opposition to the corruption of the institution of marriage.

>> ^petpeeved:

>> ^shinyblurry:
Don't try that shit, it's discrimination, you know exactly why he was refusing to make a gay wedding cake that type of lying isn't going to help your argument. 2nd it's not a double-standard to hand someone their ass when they say something stupid. You do something counter to the way a society has been going you get shouted down in the public square. We're moving towards legalizing gay marriage and giving equal rights to all americans, you go counter to that you're gonna get yelled at.
Sorry but you're wrong, it isn't discrimination. They were still able to do business there if they wanted another kind of cake, and I'm sure they're still welcome to do so. The man doesn't want to make a gay wedding cake because he believes marriage is between a man and a woman, and that gay marriage is immoral.
Also filth posted on message boards? Is this your first day on the internet? I'm pretty sure Justin Beiber hasn't done anything to anyone on the internet and still he's talked about worse than Hitler. You're in hyperbole country mother fucker, deal with it.
Now you want to continue discriminating against people and not doing your job to make cakes or hand out birth control pills than yeah your life is gonna be made harder. Too bad because you're lives are already way too easy as it is. Complaining about christian discrimination, bitch there's children dying in Africa, shut the fuck up.
So discrimination against Christians is okay, because people talk trash all the time and children are dying in Africa? In other words, you just wave your hand and make excuses..proving that you don't really think discrimination is wrong, so long as its against people you disagree with. It's clear you want equal rights for everyone except Christians.
>> ^Yogi

So blacks weren't being discriminated against on the buses and water fountains, because, hey, they could still ride...just not in the front of the bus and hey, they could get a drink...just not at this particular water fountain.
Sounds like the sequel to separate but equal.

>> ^shinyblurry:

If polygamy were legal, would it be a civil rights issue if he refused to bake one for a polygamous wedding? How about a cake for someone wanted to marry their dog, or their car? He believes marriage is between a man and a woman and refuses to make a cake for any other kind of wedding. This has nothing to do with their sexual orientation, it has to do with his moral opposition to the corruption of the institution of marriage.
>> ^petpeeved:
>> ^shinyblurry:
Don't try that shit, it's discrimination, you know exactly why he was refusing to make a gay wedding cake that type of lying isn't going to help your argument. 2nd it's not a double-standard to hand someone their ass when they say something stupid. You do something counter to the way a society has been going you get shouted down in the public square. We're moving towards legalizing gay marriage and giving equal rights to all americans, you go counter to that you're gonna get yelled at.
Sorry but you're wrong, it isn't discrimination. They were still able to do business there if they wanted another kind of cake, and I'm sure they're still welcome to do so. The man doesn't want to make a gay wedding cake because he believes marriage is between a man and a woman, and that gay marriage is immoral.
Also filth posted on message boards? Is this your first day on the internet? I'm pretty sure Justin Beiber hasn't done anything to anyone on the internet and still he's talked about worse than Hitler. You're in hyperbole country mother fucker, deal with it.
Now you want to continue discriminating against people and not doing your job to make cakes or hand out birth control pills than yeah your life is gonna be made harder. Too bad because you're lives are already way too easy as it is. Complaining about christian discrimination, bitch there's children dying in Africa, shut the fuck up.
So discrimination against Christians is okay, because people talk trash all the time and children are dying in Africa? In other words, you just wave your hand and make excuses..proving that you don't really think discrimination is wrong, so long as its against people you disagree with. It's clear you want equal rights for everyone except Christians.
>> ^Yogi

So blacks weren't being discriminated against on the buses and water fountains, because, hey, they could still ride...just not in the front of the bus and hey, they could get a drink...just not at this particular water fountain.
Sounds like the sequel to separate but equal.



You know what is the main flaw in the argument of Christians who claim that they have the sole right to define what the institution of marriage represents and who is permitted to access it?

Simply this:

Christians don't own, didn't invent, and have no right to control marriage. They don't hold the patent on it. Not the idea of marriage, not the word of marriage, nothing. The concept of marriage belongs to the human race and predates Christianity by millenia and continents. Therefore, they have no special rights or privilege to impose their definition of it upon the rest of the nation.

But don't take my word for it. You have google at your finger tips.

>> ^shinyblurry:

If polygamy were legal, would it be a civil rights issue if he refused to bake one for a polygamous wedding?

Yes. And frankly, as long as all parties are consenting adults, I have no problem with polygamy. It's not my thing, but if that floats your boat, go nuts.

>> ^shinyblurry:

How about a cake for someone wanted to marry their dog, or their car?

That is exactly the kind of retarded question I would have expected. Kudos to you for keeping my expectations of you consistently low. If it was anyone else, I wouldn't even have to explain this, but since you clearly have the intellectual capacity of a slightly stupid chimpanzee....

You cannot marry a dog. It is illegal and always will be, because they cannot give an informed consent,
i.e. completely fucking irrelevant to a discussion pertaining to what two adults decide to do.
>> ^shinyblurry:

He believes marriage is between a man and a woman and refuses to make a cake for any other kind of wedding. This has nothing to do with their sexual orientation, it has to do with his moral opposition to the corruption of the institution of marriage.

He's legally within his rights to do so. And once again, the rest of us get to call him an asshole for doing so.

And as for "corrupting the institute of marriage"? I think you'll find that heterosexual christians are fucking that up just fine by themselves.

Then I guess I'm also bigoted and discriminate against pedophiles or the KKK for that matter. How dare I, right?

And no, history will not judge me for my eff'd up morals, as you put it. History will judge me as someone who actually had morals that weren't swayed by popular culture, rather than changing beliefs with every whim of society.

>> ^ChaosEngine:

>> ^Morganth:
No, that's not the definition of discrimination. And it's not the definition of bigotry either. You cannot simply cry "bigot" whenever someone else's beliefs aren't the same as yours.
dis·crim·i·na·tion   [dih-skrim-uh-ney-shuhn]
noun
1. an act or instance of discriminating.
2. treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit: racial and religious intolerance and discrimination.
The bakery is refusing to bake them a wedding cake because they are gay. They are making a distinction against a person based on their sexual orientation.
Now, care to try that again?

>> ^hamsteralliance:

>> ^ChaosEngine:
>> ^shinyblurry:
How about a cake for someone wanted to marry their dog, or their car?
That is exactly the kind of retarded question I would have expected.
YOU WOULDN'T DOWNLOAD A GAY CAKE WITH YOUR CAR.


Yes I would...EVERYONE FUCKING WOULD THAT SOUNDS AWESOME!

Could you imagine the boycotts, press coverage & protests that would occur if a business prominently stated that it would not provide any service to Christians because of the belief of some being extremely 'bigoted arseholes'.

>> ^Morganth:

Then I guess I'm also bigoted and discriminate against pedophiles or the KKK for that matter. How dare I, right?

You fail to understand. Discrimination as a concept is not a bad thing. Discrimination against people for no good reason that is where the problem lies. To break it down:

Discrimination against nazis, pedophiles and twilight fans: Perfectly acceptable, those people did
something wrong.

Discrimination against people of other ethnicities, sexual orientation: bad!

>> ^Morganth:

And no, history will not judge me for my eff'd up morals, as you put it. History will judge me as someone who actually had morals that weren't swayed by popular culture, rather than changing beliefs with every whim of society.

Sadly for you, no. You aren't some brave moral crusader. You're a relic, clinging to an anachronistic belief that will be consigned to the same dustbin of history as those who thought women shouldn't vote. At best, you'll be tolerated and at worst, vilified.

Who cares.

Every one gets discriminated for something at some point in time grow up and find another cake.

Get a life.

Its a mom and pop store he can deny service for any reason.

Gotta say it, if you are a supporter of gay rights, don't call in death threats to those who are against it. They are (likely) all religious and therefore will take it as "persecution" for their beliefs.

People have been discriminating against racists for too long. Racists have feelings too, you know!

http://videosift.com/video/Raylene-the-Racist

The worst thing about this is that the baker claims to be a Christian and isn't joking. That is just fucking perverse!

Cool, I can lock Bob up in a concentration camp just because his name is bob.

Who cares, right bob? It's just discrimination right? it's all for the lulz right? Discrimination puts hair on your chest mIrite?

It's my religious belief that all people named bob are evil so I'm protected from all criticism right?

As usual, Bob is clueless

>> ^bobknight33:

Who cares.
Every one gets discriminated for something at some point in time grow up and find another cake.
Get a life.
Its a mom and pop store he can deny service for any reason.

>> ^shinyblurry:

Don't try that shit, it's discrimination, you know exactly why he was refusing to make a gay wedding cake that type of lying isn't going to help your argument. 2nd it's not a double-standard to hand someone their ass when they say something stupid. You do something counter to the way a society has been going you get shouted down in the public square. We're moving towards legalizing gay marriage and giving equal rights to all americans, you go counter to that you're gonna get yelled at.
Sorry but you're wrong, it isn't discrimination. They were still able to do business there if they wanted another kind of cake, and I'm sure they're still welcome to do so. The man doesn't want to make a gay wedding cake because he believes marriage is between a man and a woman, and that gay marriage is immoral.
Also filth posted on message boards? Is this your first day on the internet? I'm pretty sure Justin Beiber hasn't done anything to anyone on the internet and still he's talked about worse than Hitler. You're in hyperbole country mother fucker, deal with it.
Now you want to continue discriminating against people and not doing your job to make cakes or hand out birth control pills than yeah your life is gonna be made harder. Too bad because you're lives are already way too easy as it is. Complaining about christian discrimination, bitch there's children dying in Africa, shut the fuck up.
So discrimination against Christians is okay, because people talk trash all the time and children are dying in Africa? In other words, you just wave your hand and make excuses..proving that you don't really think discrimination is wrong, so long as its against people you disagree with. It's clear you want equal rights for everyone except Christians.
>> ^Yogi


No one is discriminating against Christians, you wannabe martyr. We're just calling you out on your bullshit.

You: I disapprove of gay marriage
Everyone else with synapses: That's fine. Believe what you want, but the facts are that you're wrong and here's why and because of separation of church and state, you don't get to make any laws based on your nonsense unless you can back your shit up with more than just "gay sex is icky and they make me uncomfortable" And now you also alienated yourself from the rest of society because of the growing acceptance of LGBT.

Not all opinions are equal, dumbass, get over it. We put Christian beliefs to the test for a long time and they just don't pass muster anymore...deal with it. Adapt or die

If someone came in and started arguing that hitler was awesome, It's not discrimination if we tear into him for being a moron.

You being Christian has nothing to do with it. It's your shitty ideas that demonstrably infringe on other's rights that are under fire, not your freedom of religion.

@UsesProzac You'll never get through to someone who honestly believes "it's not that he refused to make them a cake because they were gay, he refused to make a gay wedding cake," has any merit as an argument.

To really get somewhere in an argument with someone like this, you need to re-frame the problem into a more basic philosophical question after agree'd upon facts have been established.

Why do he refused service? <<< a rel="nofollow" good place to start apparently. @shinyblurry seems to think it's because of the event that the cake was being used for, so let's continue on that basis.

The next question would be: Does the baker have the right to demand to know what events his cakes are being used for? I mean, if I had some kind of cake-fetish should I be required to disclose it to the baker "Yes, I'm totally gonna stick this cake up my own ass."
^this seems like a more appropriate place for the two of you to continue your discussion in some constructive way.

I think you should have actually read about what happened before you commented.

This is what the owner said:

""If gays come in and want to order birthday cakes or any cakes for any occasion, graduations, or whatever, I have no prejudice against that whatsoever," Phillips told CBS. "It's just the wedding cake, not the people, not their lifestyle."

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/cake-bakery-blasted-refusal-gay-couple-wedding-cake-article-1.1125737#ixzz22M2FLkbs

So yes, my argument does have merit. They also came in an announced that they were gay and told him what the cake was for:

"My first comment was, 'We're getting married"

I'm sure the reason for this was that they already knew they were going to get turned down:

"This is not the first time Phillips has refused to bake a wedding cake for a gay couple. He insists, however, that his stance is not anti-gay."

The gay community in that town already knew about it, and sent someone in to get refused so they could create a story for the media with the hype and drama that has surrounded it, and generate sympathy for their cause.



>> ^JiggaJonson:

@UsesProzac You'll never get through to someone who honestly believes "it's not that he refused to make them a cake because they were gay, he refused to make a gay wedding cake," has any merit as an argument.
To really get somewhere in an argument with someone like this, you need to re-frame the problem into a more basic philosophical question after agree'd upon facts have been established.
Why do he refused service? <<< a rel="nofollow" good place to start apparently. @shinyblurry seems to think it's because of the event that the cake was being used for, so let's continue on that basis.
The next question would be: Does the baker have the right to demand to know what events his cakes are being used for? I mean, if I had some kind of cake-fetish should I be required to disclose it to the baker "Yes, I'm totally gonna stick this cake up my own ass."
^this seems like a more appropriate place for the two of you to continue your discussion in some constructive way.

he can refuse service all he wants...he has that right. But he's not immune to the consequences of exercising that right.

free market and personal responsibility and all that...eh republicans?

>> ^shinyblurry:

The gay community in that town already knew about it, and sent someone in to get refused so they could create a story for the media with the hype and drama that has surrounded it, and generate sympathy for their cause.

Legitimately so. If he truly believes his bullshit he should be happy to advertise it. In the meantime, everyone else is now aware of his stance and can choose to support or ignore him.

No one has a right to be baked a wedding cake.

>> ^VoodooV

Are you deliberately being thick? No one is questioning this.

>> ^shinyblurry:

No one has a right to be baked a wedding cake.
>> ^VoodooV

I love that this is your reasoning as to why they shouldn't send death threats, not that it's wrong, but that they may interpret it in a particular way you don't like.

>> ^TheJehosephat:

Gotta say it, if you are a supporter of gay rights, don't call in death threats to those who are against it. They are (likely) all religious and therefore will take it as "persecution" for their beliefs.

The parameters of marriage was determined by God at the beginning of His creation. We have turned away from God in these United States, and so we have turned away from the biblical standard, however, not as much as gay marriage proponents have stated. Even with the media saturation and the constant infiltration of gay special interest groups into the national discourse, we have these realities:

1. A gay marriage amendment has never passed at the ballot box. It has failed everywhere it has been tried, with the voters rejecting it 32 times since 1998.

2. Constitutional bans on gay marriage have been successful 100 percent of time at the ballot box, passing in 31 states, typically with wide margins. This includes liberal strongholds like California and Hawaii. 38 states ban it to some degree.

The people don't appear to want gay marriage, and they are strongly in favor of the biblical definition of marriage. If you don't want to accept the reality that God has defined marriage, then accept the reality that most people are not that hot for this, and they don't want to take the country in this direction.
>> ^petpeeved:

>> ^shinyblurry:
If polygamy were legal, would it be a civil rights issue if he refused to bake one for a polygamous wedding? How about a cake for someone wanted to marry their dog, or their car? He believes marriage is between a man and a woman and refuses to make a cake for any other kind of wedding. This has nothing to do with their sexual orientation, it has to do with his moral opposition to the corruption of the institution of marriage.
>> ^petpeeved:
>> ^shinyblurry:
Don't try that shit, it's discrimination, you know exactly why he was refusing to make a gay wedding cake that type of lying isn't going to help your argument. 2nd it's not a double-standard to hand someone their ass when they say something stupid. You do something counter to the way a society has been going you get shouted down in the public square. We're moving towards legalizing gay marriage and giving equal rights to all americans, you go counter to that you're gonna get yelled at.
Sorry but you're wrong, it isn't discrimination. They were still able to do business there if they wanted another kind of cake, and I'm sure they're still welcome to do so. The man doesn't want to make a gay wedding cake because he believes marriage is between a man and a woman, and that gay marriage is immoral.
Also filth posted on message boards? Is this your first day on the internet? I'm pretty sure Justin Beiber hasn't done anything to anyone on the internet and still he's talked about worse than Hitler. You're in hyperbole country mother fucker, deal with it.
Now you want to continue discriminating against people and not doing your job to make cakes or hand out birth control pills than yeah your life is gonna be made harder. Too bad because you're lives are already way too easy as it is. Complaining about christian discrimination, bitch there's children dying in Africa, shut the fuck up.
So discrimination against Christians is okay, because people talk trash all the time and children are dying in Africa? In other words, you just wave your hand and make excuses..proving that you don't really think discrimination is wrong, so long as its against people you disagree with. It's clear you want equal rights for everyone except Christians.
>> ^Yogi

So blacks weren't being discriminated against on the buses and water fountains, because, hey, they could still ride...just not in the front of the bus and hey, they could get a drink...just not at this particular water fountain.
Sounds like the sequel to separate but equal.


You know what is the main flaw in the argument of Christians who claim that they have the sole right to define what the institution of marriage represents and who is permitted to access it?
Simply this:
Christians don't own, didn't invent, and have no right to control marriage. They don't hold the patent on it. Not the idea of marriage, not the word of marriage, nothing. The concept of marriage belongs to the human race and predates Christianity by millenia and continents. Therefore, they have no special rights or privilege to impose their definition of it upon the rest of the nation.
But don't take my word for it. You have google at your finger tips.

You said that biblical morality is infringing on peoples rights. I replied that no one has a right to be baked a wedding cake. No rights were violated at all.

>> ^VoodooV:

Are you deliberately being thick? No one is questioning this.
>> ^shinyblurry:
No one has a right to be baked a wedding cake.
>> ^VoodooV

>> ^shinyblurry:

I love that this is your reasoning as to why they shouldn't send death threats, not that it's wrong, but that they may interpret it in a particular way you don't like.
>> ^TheJehosephat:
Gotta say it, if you are a supporter of gay rights, don't call in death threats to those who are against it. They are (likely) all religious and therefore will take it as "persecution" for their beliefs.



You really want to go down this road? Are you incapable of making any real arguments? fringe elements on both sides make death threats and they're universally reviled and not accepted.

Try again

for fuck's sake you are such an idiot. We're referring to treating homosexuals with equal rights, not a flippin cake.

it's obviously past your bedtime shiny.

>> ^shinyblurry:

You said that biblical morality is infringing on peoples rights. I replied that no one has a right to be baked a wedding cake. No rights were violated at all.
>> ^VoodooV:
Are you deliberately being thick? No one is questioning this.
>> ^shinyblurry:
No one has a right to be baked a wedding cake.
>> ^VoodooV

none of which means a damn in the real world.

I refer you again to my earlier references to circular logic and how you fail to comprehend how it's a fallacy. Using a deity you can't prove exists as an authoritative source continues to get you nowhere. Your faith is not fact. If it was fact, then you wouldn't need faith. "god told me so" is not valid argument in grownup land

>> ^shinyblurry:

blah blah blah blah
>> ^petpeeved:
>> ^shinyblurry:
If polygamy were legal, would it be a civil rights issue if he refused to bake one for a polygamous wedding? How about a cake for someone wanted to marry their dog, or their car? He believes marriage is between a man and a woman and refuses to make a cake for any other kind of wedding. This has nothing to do with their sexual orientation, it has to do with his moral opposition to the corruption of the institution of marriage.
>> ^petpeeved:
>> ^shinyblurry:
Don't try that shit, it's discrimination, you know exactly why he was refusing to make a gay wedding cake that type of lying isn't going to help your argument. 2nd it's not a double-standard to hand someone their ass when they say something stupid. You do something counter to the way a society has been going you get shouted down in the public square. We're moving towards legalizing gay marriage and giving equal rights to all americans, you go counter to that you're gonna get yelled at.
Sorry but you're wrong, it isn't discrimination. They were still able to do business there if they wanted another kind of cake, and I'm sure they're still welcome to do so. The man doesn't want to make a gay wedding cake because he believes marriage is between a man and a woman, and that gay marriage is immoral.
Also filth posted on message boards? Is this your first day on the internet? I'm pretty sure Justin Beiber hasn't done anything to anyone on the internet and still he's talked about worse than Hitler. You're in hyperbole country mother fucker, deal with it.
Now you want to continue discriminating against people and not doing your job to make cakes or hand out birth control pills than yeah your life is gonna be made harder. Too bad because you're lives are already way too easy as it is. Complaining about christian discrimination, bitch there's children dying in Africa, shut the fuck up.
So discrimination against Christians is okay, because people talk trash all the time and children are dying in Africa? In other words, you just wave your hand and make excuses..proving that you don't really think discrimination is wrong, so long as its against people you disagree with. It's clear you want equal rights for everyone except Christians.
>> ^Yogi

So blacks weren't being discriminated against on the buses and water fountains, because, hey, they could still ride...just not in the front of the bus and hey, they could get a drink...just not at this particular water fountain.
Sounds like the sequel to separate but equal.

You know what is the main flaw in the argument of Christians who claim that they have the sole right to define what the institution of marriage represents and who is permitted to access it?
Simply this:
Christians don't own, didn't invent, and have no right to control marriage. They don't hold the patent on it. Not the idea of marriage, not the word of marriage, nothing. The concept of marriage belongs to the human race and predates Christianity by millenia and continents. Therefore, they have no special rights or privilege to impose their definition of it upon the rest of the nation.
But don't take my word for it. You have google at your finger tips.

You didn't understand what the video was talking about, or what I was talking about. I'll repeat what I said to you:

There are only two ways to know the truth. One is that you're omnipotent, and the other is if an omnipotent being tells you what it is. Christians claim to have revealed truth from an omnipotent being. What is your claim? "I don't know". That's fine, but you have no route to the truth. There is no situation where you are going to be able to know what it is. You're going by your intuition and reasoning, which is limited, subjective, biased, and ultimately flawed.

I can also easily demonstrate that your entire worldview is based on viciously circular reasoning. If you don't believe that, then answer this question:

How do you know the Universe is real?



>> ^VoodooV:

none of which means a damn in the real world.
I refer you again to my earlier references to circular logic and how you fail to comprehend how it's a fallacy. Using a deity you can't prove exist as an authoritative source continues to get you nowhere.

Its a cake. Lighten up. Is you IQ less than 100? Just wondering because your argument is is lame.

Lock up all the Bobs. I hate Bobs. Bobs are bad. Bobs are evil.

>> ^VoodooV:

Cool, I can lock Bob up in a concentration camp just because his name is bob.
Who cares, right bob? It's just discrimination right? it's all for the lulz right? Discrimination puts hair on your chest mIrite?
It's my religious belief that all people named bob are evil so I'm protected from all criticism right?
As usual, Bob is clueless
>> ^bobknight33:
Who cares.
Every one gets discriminated for something at some point in time grow up and find another cake.
Get a life.
Its a mom and pop store he can deny service for any reason.

My world view is not under scrutiny here today shiny. Nice attempt at dodging the topic again. I'm not the one that is arguing that my beliefs should be treated as fact. The burden of proof is on you, amigo.

Please try again. I can shoot your nonsense down faster than you can dream it up.

>> ^shinyblurry:

more blah blah blah blah

>> ^VoodooV:
none of which means a damn in the real world.
I refer you again to my earlier references to circular logic and how you fail to comprehend how it's a fallacy. Using a deity you can't prove exist as an authoritative source continues to get you nowhere.
>> ^shinyblurry:
blah blah blah blah
>> ^petpeeved:
>> ^shinyblurry:
If polygamy were legal, would it be a civil rights issue if he refused to bake one for a polygamous wedding? How about a cake for someone wanted to marry their dog, or their car? He believes marriage is between a man and a woman and refuses to make a cake for any other kind of wedding. This has nothing to do with their sexual orientation, it has to do with his moral opposition to the corruption of the institution of marriage.
>> ^petpeeved:
>> ^shinyblurry:
Don't try that shit, it's discrimination, you know exactly why he was refusing to make a gay wedding cake that type of lying isn't going to help your argument. 2nd it's not a double-standard to hand someone their ass when they say something stupid. You do something counter to the way a society has been going you get shouted down in the public square. We're moving towards legalizing gay marriage and giving equal rights to all americans, you go counter to that you're gonna get yelled at.
Sorry but you're wrong, it isn't discrimination. They were still able to do business there if they wanted another kind of cake, and I'm sure they're still welcome to do so. The man doesn't want to make a gay wedding cake because he believes marriage is between a man and a woman, and that gay marriage is immoral.
Also filth posted on message boards? Is this your first day on the internet? I'm pretty sure Justin Beiber hasn't done anything to anyone on the internet and still he's talked about worse than Hitler. You're in hyperbole country mother fucker, deal with it.
Now you want to continue discriminating against people and not doing your job to make cakes or hand out birth control pills than yeah your life is gonna be made harder. Too bad because you're lives are already way too easy as it is. Complaining about christian discrimination, bitch there's children dying in Africa, shut the fuck up.
So discrimination against Christians is okay, because people talk trash all the time and children are dying in Africa? In other words, you just wave your hand and make excuses..proving that you don't really think discrimination is wrong, so long as its against people you disagree with. It's clear you want equal rights for everyone except Christians.
>> ^Yogi

So blacks weren't being discriminated against on the buses and water fountains, because, hey, they could still ride...just not in the front of the bus and hey, they could get a drink...just not at this particular water fountain.
Sounds like the sequel to separate but equal.

You know what is the main flaw in the argument of Christians who claim that they have the sole right to define what the institution of marriage represents and who is permitted to access it?
Simply this:
Christians don't own, didn't invent, and have no right to control marriage. They don't hold the patent on it. Not the idea of marriage, not the word of marriage, nothing. The concept of marriage belongs to the human race and predates Christianity by millenia and continents. Therefore, they have no special rights or privilege to impose their definition of it upon the rest of the nation.
But don't take my word for it. You have google at your finger tips.

I'm not the one doing the dodging here, VoodooV.

>> ^VoodooV

Ahh the "I know you are but what am I" argument. I see you've fallen to @bobknight33 levels of competence in debating.

Time for bed, but feel free to make another long winded self-important, wall of text post that is easily demolished in a sentence or two. I'll read it and chuckle in the morning.

>> ^shinyblurry:

I'm not the one doing the dodging here, VoodooV.
>> ^VoodooV

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag.(show it anyway)

Good discussion. Be gentle with SB - he's the only one we've got - and an important perspective.

I agree. And I'm a "religious person."

The vast majority of religious people are nothing like the members of Westboro Baptist Church. I have no problem with your general sentiment about being kind and loving to everyone. I have a problem when you say "religious people glorify in the hatred of others."

That's just a hateful thing to say about me.

>> ^UsesProzac:

Just because he didn't say hate doesn't mean it isn't in him. To act like that, to willfully turn away a customer because you look down upon them and their lifestyle? That's bigotry, intolerance of another. Especially in light of the bible explicitly saying not to judge others.
Terrorism, really? You're silly.
"Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's"
I bring this up because I feel that servicing a customer is part of operating inside of society and being an obedient and humble person, just as your religious text wants you to be.
Wielding judgement is for your god alone.
>> ^deedub81:
" I really don't understand why religious people glorify in the hatred of others."
Using the same hyperbole that you do, I can paint all non-religious people with as broad a brush by saying "I don't understand why all non-religious people are violent terrorists and threaten hard working families with death threats."
I'm religious and I wouldn't deny business to somebody for being gay just like you didn't (and wouldn't) call in a death threat to this guy.
>> ^UsesProzac:
Business has doubled since the incident? I really don't understand why religious people glorify in the hatred of others. I've seen it firsthand in extended family members and it chills me. How can Christians ignore the gospel of loving thy neighbor and judge not and all those other fancy things their prophet said in their own religious text?
@shinyblurry, how do you reconcile that hypocrisy within yourself? You're the only person I know to ask here, seeing as you called me a harlot and all that. When you judge another person and go directly against the words set down in your bible, do you immediately ask your god to forgive you or what?
Edit: I'll throw in one of my favorite quotes to further illustrate the rampant hypocrisy.
“If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition and then admit that we just don't want to do it.” - Stephen Colbert

Religion... AGAIN!

I baked the gayest cake today. It tasted like rainbows.

>> ^petpeeved:
Sounds like the sequel to separate but equal.
That would be the title of a frikkin awesome Dr Seuss book.

>> ^dag:

Good discussion. Be gentle with SB - he's the only one we've got - and an important perspective.


Honestly, I want to, but he really doesn't make it easy.

I respectfully disagree with every element of your comment.
>> ^dag:

Good discussion. Be gentle with SB - he's the only one we've got - and an important perspective.

>> ^shinyblurry:

The parameters of marriage was determined by God at the beginning of His creation. We have turned away from God in these United States, and so we have turned away from the biblical standard, however, not as much as gay marriage proponents have stated. Even with the media saturation and the constant infiltration of gay special interest groups into the national discourse, we have these realities:
1. A gay marriage amendment has never passed at the ballot box. It has failed everywhere it has been tried, with the voters rejecting it 32 times since 1998.
2. Constitutional bans on gay marriage have been successful 100 percent of time at the ballot box, passing in 31 states, typically with wide margins. This includes liberal strongholds like California and Hawaii. 38 states ban it to some degree.
The people don't appear to want gay marriage, and they are strongly in favor of the biblical definition of marriage. If you don't want to accept the reality that God has defined marriage, then accept the reality that most people are not that hot for this, and they don't want to take the country in this direction.
>> ^petpeeved:
>> ^shinyblurry:
If polygamy were legal, would it be a civil rights issue if he refused to bake one for a polygamous wedding? How about a cake for someone wanted to marry their dog, or their car? He believes marriage is between a man and a woman and refuses to make a cake for any other kind of wedding. This has nothing to do with their sexual orientation, it has to do with his moral opposition to the corruption of the institution of marriage.
>> ^petpeeved:
>> ^shinyblurry:
Don't try that shit, it's discrimination, you know exactly why he was refusing to make a gay wedding cake that type of lying isn't going to help your argument. 2nd it's not a double-standard to hand someone their ass when they say something stupid. You do something counter to the way a society has been going you get shouted down in the public square. We're moving towards legalizing gay marriage and giving equal rights to all americans, you go counter to that you're gonna get yelled at.
Sorry but you're wrong, it isn't discrimination. They were still able to do business there if they wanted another kind of cake, and I'm sure they're still welcome to do so. The man doesn't want to make a gay wedding cake because he believes marriage is between a man and a woman, and that gay marriage is immoral.
Also filth posted on message boards? Is this your first day on the internet? I'm pretty sure Justin Beiber hasn't done anything to anyone on the internet and still he's talked about worse than Hitler. You're in hyperbole country mother fucker, deal with it.
Now you want to continue discriminating against people and not doing your job to make cakes or hand out birth control pills than yeah your life is gonna be made harder. Too bad because you're lives are already way too easy as it is. Complaining about christian discrimination, bitch there's children dying in Africa, shut the fuck up.
So discrimination against Christians is okay, because people talk trash all the time and children are dying in Africa? In other words, you just wave your hand and make excuses..proving that you don't really think discrimination is wrong, so long as its against people you disagree with. It's clear you want equal rights for everyone except Christians.
>> ^Yogi

So blacks weren't being discriminated against on the buses and water fountains, because, hey, they could still ride...just not in the front of the bus and hey, they could get a drink...just not at this particular water fountain.
Sounds like the sequel to separate but equal.


You know what is the main flaw in the argument of Christians who claim that they have the sole right to define what the institution of marriage represents and who is permitted to access it?
Simply this:
Christians don't own, didn't invent, and have no right to control marriage. They don't hold the patent on it. Not the idea of marriage, not the word of marriage, nothing. The concept of marriage belongs to the human race and predates Christianity by millenia and continents. Therefore, they have no special rights or privilege to impose their definition of it upon the rest of the nation.
But don't take my word for it. You have google at your finger tips.



As much as I want to applaud you for shifting to a "fact" based argument with elements of reasoning as opposed to your pure belief based system of thought, I'm greatly confused as to where your statistics are coming from. I'm also a little irked that you forced me to do all the googling by the way. There are mountains of evidence that on every front, from the popular vote to constitutional challenges, that gay marriage is gaining support, not losing it.

Here, let me google it for you.

Just a few rulings on the constitutional level:

November 2003: the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court ruled that barring gays and lesbians from marrying violates the state constitution. The Massachusetts Chief Justice concluded that to “deny the protections, benefits, and obligations conferred by civil marriage” to gay couples was unconstitutional because it denied “the dignity and equality of all individuals” and made them “second-class citizens.” Strong opposition followed the ruling.

August 4, 2010: Chief U.S. District Judge Vaughn Walker ruled that Proposition 8, the 2008 referendum that banned same-sex marriage in California, violates the 14th Amendment's equal protection clause. "Proposition 8 singles out gays and lesbians and legitimates their unequal treatment," Vaughn wrote in his opinion. "Proposition 8 perpetuates the stereotype that gays and lesbians are incapable of forming long-term loving relationships and that gays and lesbians are not good parents."

February 7, 2012: the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals in California ruled 2–1 that Proposition 8, the 2008 referendum that banned same-sex marriage in state, is unconstitutional because it violates the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment. In the ruling, the court said, the law "operates with no apparent purpose but to impose on gays and lesbians, through the public law, a majority's private disapproval of them and their relationships."

On the popular opinion front:

A June 6 CNN/ORC International poll showed that a majority of Americans support same-sex marriage being legalized at 54%, while 42% are opposed.

A May 22 NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll showed that 54% of Americans would support a law in their state making same-sex marriage legal, with 40% opposed.

A May 17-20 ABC News/Washington Post poll showed that 53% believe same-sex marriage should be legal, with only 39% opposed, a low-water mark for opposition in any national poll so far.

A May 10 USA Today/Gallup Poll, taken one day after Barack Obama became the first sitting President to express support for same-sex marriage,[14] showed 51% of Americans agreed with the President's endorsement. A May 8 Gallup Poll showed plurality support for same-sex marriage nationwide, with 50% in favor and 48% opposed.

An April Pew Research Center poll showed support for same-sex marriage at 47%, while opposition fell to an all-time low of 43%.

A March 7-10 ABC News/Washington Post poll found 52% of adults thought it should be legal for same-sex couples to get married, while 42% disagreed and 5% were unsure.[18] A March survey by the Public Religion Research Institute found 52% of Americans supported allowing same-sex couples to marry, while 44% opposed.

A February 29 - March 3 NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll found 49% of adults supported allowing same-sex couples to marry, while 40% opposed.

One last note on a slightly different topic: religious groups funding anti-gay legislation, most notoriously, the Prop. 8 campaign in California. If Christians are going to use their funds as a group, not individuals, why are they being given tax-free exemptions? Why should people, such as myself, who don't share their beliefs, subsidize their political ambitions?

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.”

I don't want the government to curtail the ability of the religious to practice their faith but I don't think the first amendment was intended to give religions the overwhelming competitive advantage of tax-free money at the ballot box.

This could be solved two ways: no more organizational level contributions to political campaigns, i.e. the close to 200k the Mormon Church donated to support Prop. 8, OR remove tax-exempt status from religions.

By the way, it might seem impossible to conceive of a time when tax-exempt status for religion wasn't taken for granted but it's been a controversial issue from the inception of America. For example, even President Grant and Madison were against tax-exemption for religions.

Yeah, sorry, I have to disagree with that last part. You read that whole exchange, you can see for yourself how he tried to change the subject, shift the burden, and otherwise distract from the argument at hand.

The central argument is not whether or not freedom of religion is under fire. No one is disputing that Chik-Fil-A or the cake store owner is within their rights to refuse service. The misunderstanding is that they seem to believe that because it's their right, they're immune to criticism.

That's two different things.

I have every right to change my name to Foo Foo Farty Pants. That doesn't mean you can't give me crap about it.

They're trying to have their cake and eat it too. He wants to be free to express his opinion, but other people are apparently not free to voice their opinion that he's full of shit.

Others have already mentioned it but if a store refused service to christians, there would be massive amounts of outrage from the right and they'd be screaming at the top of their lungs about the "war on Christianity"

The right to refuse service swings both ways. I would argue that refusing service to ANY demographic is unnecessary and dumb and ultimately a poor business decision. That's not what the right to refuse service is supposed to be for. I'm pretty sure it's meant for dealing with unruly, disruptive, belligerent people, not to advance a religious/political agenda.

>> ^dag:

Good discussion. Be gentle with SB - he's the only one we've got - and an important perspective.

>> ^bobknight33:

Its a cake. Lighten up. Is you IQ less than 100? Just wondering because your argument is is lame.
Lock up all the Bobs. I hate Bobs. Bobs are bad. Bobs are evil.


One day I was walking through town and a man asked me for directions to Uluru (also known as Ayers Rock). I was somewhat taken aback as I live in the south island of New Zealand also known as not fucking Australia (apologies to my bold-hating quasi-fan-club but sometimes I just gotta rock that shit). Anyway after explaining to said person that he had, in fact, arrived in an entirely different country, I proceeded to wax lyrical on the many wondrous qualities that make up the isolated little outcrop of the south pacific which I currently reside upon.

At this point, and I shit you not, he asked me a) had I been an extra in the lord of the rings and b) where he might go orc-hunting.

What, the average reader might relevantly inquire, does this have to do with the conversation at hand?

Well, until today, that was the most retarded conversation I have ever had the misfortune to take part in. Thankfully, @bobknight33 has reminded me that there is always someone even more idiotic out there.

I'm pro-gay marriage, but this is just a guy refusing to accept money for a service due to personal beliefs/opinions. Gay marraige is non-traditional, and will remain 'atypical' in many people's eyes for a couple more decades. Personally, I can't be mad at people who think of themselves as traditional/conservative when they act in the way they self-define.

If a creepy 55 year old guy and a quiet little 17 year-old came into my hypothetical bakery, would I refuse to make a cake for their wedding? Maybe ... maybe thats my limit to what is socially acceptable... and I think it would be my prerogative to refuse serving them.


(p.s. I up-arrowed a good number of Shiny's comments to offset down-arrows... in my mind 'downvoting' on this site is reserved for innapropriate comments, like personal attacks.)

These bigots can't even be good Christians while pretending to be. Christ would be ashamed.

Too many people spending too much time throwing their moral code at others to look at themselves and see what assholes they are when judged by the same set of standards.

Christ not only would be proud He is proud.

Believing in Christ carries with it a belief in a moral code.

Are you not casting stones also with your statement? Where is you moral code?


>> ^PostalBlowfish:

These bigots can't even be good Christians while pretending to be. Christ would be ashamed.
Too many people spending too much time throwing their moral code at others to look at themselves and see what assholes they are when judged by the same set of standards.

Atheists crack me up. If there is no God, no afterlife, then man is free to do any damn thing he pleases, whether it is porking another man or killing a buttporker. Who's to judge? Yet atheists love to judge the Christian because the Christian does not live up to Christian values. Meanwhile, the atheist can have no values, and this is the most highly valued thing of all.

>> ^lantern53:

Atheists crack me up. If there is no God, no afterlife, then man is free to do any damn thing he pleases, whether it is porking another man or killing a buttporker. Who's to judge? Yet atheists love to judge the Christian because the Christian does not live up to Christian values. Meanwhile, the atheist can have no values, and this is the most highly valued thing of all.


"If there's no threat of eternal torture people can do whatever they want! What, reciprocity? Human responsibility? Goodness for goodness' sake? What witchcraft is that? I don't go kill the people my ancient book tells me to hate only because I'm afraid my sky-daddy will punish instead of reward me!"

>> ^lantern53:

Atheists crack me up. If there is no God, no afterlife, then man is free to do any damn thing he pleases, whether it is porking another man or killing a buttporker. Who's to judge? Yet atheists love to judge the Christian because the Christian does not live up to Christian values. Meanwhile, the atheist can have no values, and this is the most highly valued thing of all.


Dude, what the fuck?

@bobknight33 makes all this effort to be the biggest asshole on the sift and then you just appear and one-up him. Not cool.

Why would you do that? What has he done to you? Seriously, that was all he had going for him in his pathetic little life.

And yet here you are, plumbing such depths of idiocy that I have actually run out of synonyms, metaphors and similes to mock you.

I'm glad atheists crack you up. It's good that you have something in your life, 'cos fuck knows it's certainly devoid of anything even remotely resembling culture, wit or intellect.

The great thing about this thread is that it gives me a good idea of the people I should be avoiding on this website.

"For people who are gay or support gay marriage...take solace in this: Gay marriage is happening... And your bonus is this: You get gay marriage, and all your political opponents are going to get is Type-II Diabetes." - John Stewart

>> ^lantern53:

Atheists crack me up. If there is no God, no afterlife, then man is free to do any damn thing he pleases, whether it is porking another man or killing a buttporker. Who's to judge? Yet atheists love to judge the Christian because the Christian does not live up to Christian values. Meanwhile, the atheist can have no values, and this is the most highly valued thing of all.

http://www.dumpt.com/img/viewer.php?file=rccjdstoqy5tdjyom1e2.jpg

>> ^bobknight33:

Christ not only would be proud He is proud



If your religious beliefs are true, I want you to continue thinking this so that it is impossible for you to avoid eternal punishment. That's not really true. I'm not that petty. But God is (allegedly).

Go back to judging and hating people. That's what you were told to do, after all!

Hate the sin not the sinner.

>> ^PostalBlowfish:

>> ^bobknight33:
Christ not only would be proud He is proud


If your religious beliefs are true, I want you to continue thinking this so that it is impossible for you to avoid eternal punishment. That's not really true. I'm not that petty. But God is (allegedly).
Go back to judging and hating people. That's what you were told to do, after all!

yet you manage to do both

>> ^bobknight33:

Hate the sin not the sinner.
>> ^PostalBlowfish:
>> ^bobknight33:
Christ not only would be proud He is proud

If your religious beliefs are true, I want you to continue thinking this so that it is impossible for you to avoid eternal punishment. That's not really true. I'm not that petty. But God is (allegedly).
Go back to judging and hating people. That's what you were told to do, after all!