It's about as hard to school someone irrational like Maher about vaccines and medical science, as it is for Maher to school a die-hard fundamentalist about their irrational religion.

Reason verses the Brick Wall of Ignorance, round one: FIGHT.

As a side-note, I don't get to watch any Real Time, aside from clips here on the Sift and on YouTube. Tell me, did he mention anything at all about this: http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2009/09/28/australia-homeopathy-manslaughter.html

Because I'd love to know his thoughts on it.

Man, it really hurts to agree with Frist. But Maher truly is a nutcase on this issue. It's more than a little disheartening to see his hypocrisy when it comes to rationality.

Finally! Someone is smacking Maher down on this issue. Nothing is more infuriating than someone who trumpets for rationality and logic but is so irrational and uneducated about a purely scientific issue.

I still have some sympathy for Maher point of view, but as my kid's Doctor said, "this is a LUXURY question. Most of the world can't afford to debate this issue."

Anyway, my trust issue isn't really 'trust of the Government', It's trust that the Government couldn't be manipulated by corporate interests (eg. Donald Rumsfeld). That being said, science is science so I'll side with the verified facts if you give them to me.

I love hearing a rational conservative talk (especially on health care). The United States needs two healthy parties.

I'm really rooting for the conservatives to pull their act together, dump their extremists, and join the good fight in doing proper checks-and-balances with the dems so we can all act like adults again.

This was a nice step.

Wow Douche Bag blowhard telling a doctor about medicine...

In case you do not know who Bill Frist is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Frist


People really watch this douch bag? Why does he not let the man finishing speaking? Bill Mahar flaps his lips over and over again, but keeps interrupting the Bill Frist.

This idiot tells Bill Frist that they disagree... Like Bill Frist give a shit what this TV monkey thinks about?

Frist is absolutely correct on Vaccines. People who reject the notion of medicine in favor of "alternative medicine" are never doctors, just idiots.

*quality

Boosting this quality contribution up in the Hot Listing - declared quality by gwiz665.

Wait, I like this guy? I didn't think I was allowed to.

I would never trust those people to whip up a cocktail to inject into me or my kids. They fall consistently short on the balance between ethics and profits. Crazy!

Where's the clip of Bill Maher bitching that all we do is treat symptoms in this country and not engage in preventative medicine? I like Bill Maher, but what a hypocrite, it was like shades of Rush Limbaugh there complete with a ventriloquism act involving his ass. Way to pseudo science there Bill.

Maher isn't allowed to make fun of creationists anymore. VS has to take care of it now.

*controversy

Adding video to channels (Controversy) - requested by MrFisk.

>> ^Crosswords:
Where's the clip of Bill Maher bitching that all we do is treat symptoms in this country and not engage in preventative medicine? I like Bill Maher, but what a hypocrite, it was like shades of Rush Limbaugh there complete with a ventriloquism act involving his ass. Way to pseudo science there Bill.


How is it hypocritical to say we treat symptoms as they pop up rather than care too much about public health as a whole. I don't see how that can be interpreted as a hypocritical statement, unless he himself can be proven to only treat symptoms or something.

I cant STAND non-doctors trying to school doctors on vaccines. Happens in Australia too.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag.(show it anyway)

^Yes, how dare anyone question the all-knowing oracles of medical knowledge.

I think the reason that many geeky type people always toe the main-stream medical line is because they conflate medicine with science (which we all love). Yes, it's almost the same, but if I had to draw it as a venn diagram, there would be a crescent of over-hang. Medicine to me is 80% science and then the rest is filled in with dogma, patriarchy and business ($$).

That crescent of non-science is the part that makes me squirm. I don't think it's that wrong to question medical programs like vaccinations- with the idea that it may be being pushed non-scientifically by the medical industrial complex. (big pharma).

Bill Maher is not a kook.

Go republican guy!!!

My god what a douche, luddite, and a hypocrite. After hearing week after week of him condemning people who don't believe the science of evolution, he leaps into the same trap of sophistry.

*quality

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I didn't see any schooling here, just an entirely unsatisfactory conversation with Maher interrupting alot. Felt like a Fox news clip to be honest.

>> ^dag:
^Yes, how dare anyone question the all-knowing oracles of medical knowledge.
I think the reason that many geeky type people always toe the main-stream medical line is because they conflate medicine with science (which we all love). Yes, it's almost the same, but if I had to draw it as a venn diagram, there would be a crescent of over-hang. Medicine to me is 80% science and then the rest is filled in with dogma, patriarchy and business ($$).
That crescent of non-science is the part that makes me squirm. I don't think it's that wrong to question medical programs like vaccinations- with the idea that it may be being pushed non-scientifically by the medical industrial complex. (big pharma).

I'm with you, Dag, on most of those points. Questioning things is what makes someone a skeptic to begin with, and you could apply that Venn Diagram to almost any (if not all) avenues of science. Scientists need funding, and not all are unbiased in their pursuit of knowledge. Please, question "the all-knowing oracles of medical knowledge" until you're blue in the face, but make sure that when you're done you've seen, understood, and accepted the evidence and the facts. Not testimonials and anecdotes. Maher did bring up that Frist used an anecdote, however I'm confident Maher fails to realize that the entire "alternative medicine" movement is based on anecdotes and the placebo effect.


Bill Maher is not a kook.


^And there is where we disagree on the subject of medicine and Mr. Maher. He is plainly a kook when it comes to such a serious subject as this, because he employs the exact same tactics as those religious kooks he fights against. If I could send him an amazing book I own called "Snake Oil Science: The Truth About Complementary and Alternative Medicine" what do you think the chances are he'd read it? And if he defied logic and actually read it, would his mindset allow him to see the truth, based on research and evidence into these sorts of things?

He reminds me of my mother. She's not "spiritual", but she believes almost entirely in "alternative treatments". She once argued with me to get off of my insulin treatment for Diabetes and seek an Acupuncture and more "natural" route to cure it. I calmly told her to look into these things from unbiased sources.

I lent her that book.

She threw it at me.

>> ^brycewi19:
I love hearing a rational conservative talk (especially on health care). The United States needs two healthy parties.
I'm really rooting for the conservatives to pull their act together, dump their extremists, and join the good fight in doing proper checks-and-balances with the dems so we can all act like adults again.
This was a nice step.


ABSOLUTELY. I couldn't agree more, rational and measured debate is some of the most invigorating and empowering stuff in politics. We should see more.


Also, Frist made a VERY good point about not broadcasting to pregnant women not to get the vaccine... it will literally kill them not to get it. Bill is very very wrong, wantonly wrong, and aggressively ignorant about this issue.

>> ^Yogi:

How is it hypocritical to say we treat symptoms as they pop up rather than care too much about public health as a whole. I don't see how that can be interpreted as a hypocritical statement, unless he himself can be proven to only treat symptoms or something.


It's not hypocritical to say we treat symptoms. Its hypocritical to advocate we focus more on preventative medicine and then run the fear monger campaign against vaccine on what so far what seems to be baseless conjecture and a poor understanding of evolution.

Wow, I lost a ton of respect for Bill Maher on this; he's acting like an idiot.

>> ^dag:
^Yes, how dare anyone question the all-knowing oracles of medical knowledge.
I think the reason that many geeky type people always toe the main-stream medical line is because they conflate medicine with science (which we all love). Yes, it's almost the same, but if I had to draw it as a venn diagram, there would be a crescent of over-hang. Medicine to me is 80% science and then the rest is filled in with dogma, patriarchy and business ($$).
That crescent of non-science is the part that makes me squirm. I don't think it's that wrong to question medical programs like vaccinations- with the idea that it may be being pushed non-scientifically by the medical industrial complex. (big pharma).
Bill Maher is not a kook.


As Raigen said, in this instance Bill is being a kook. Yes, we need to question everything, especially medicine. But at the end of the day one has to look at the science behind the medicine and make an informed decision. The science, as Frist said, shows that vaccines work and will save your life.

I think it's really funny how, in the last few years, people have begun to fear and distrust vaccines. Smallpox, a disease that killed 300-500 million people in the 20th century alone, was eradicated thanks to vaccines. Thanks to vaccination the occurrence of Polio went from 350,000 cases in 1988 to 1300 cases in 2007.

Vaccines work, ignoring the science kills people. Bill Maher ignores the science. In this instance he is a dangerous kook.

>> ^longde:
My god what a douche, luddite, and a hypocrite.


"Luddite" isn't an insult from my perspective, and has nothing to do with denying the results of scientific research.

It is disheartening to see Maher so off the mark in this case. Atheism isn't just giving up religion, it's giving up dogmatic thought. I'd even say that the latter is more important than the former.

I call Maher a Luddite because of his abhorrence of a particular technology, in this case, modern vaccines.

Asking questions is only an admirable behavior if you listen to the answers.

^ Maher's position is basically "vaccines don't work and are possibly deadly," which is just a false statement. A luddite is someone "who opposes the advance of technology due to the cultural and socioeconomic changes that are associated with it" (Wiki), rather than deny that it does what it's proven to do.

How many deaths in recent years have there been from the regular flu vaccine (shot)? Have they determined the shots as a cause or just coincidental. I've tried looking a little but couldn't find anything solid. The only thing I found was something from 1976 about swine flu vaccine from the CDC:

"In 1976, there was a small risk of GBS following influenza (swine flu) vaccination (approximately 1 additional case per 100,000 people who received the swine flu vaccine). That number of GBS cases was slightly higher than what is normally seen in the population, whether or not people were vaccinated. Since then, numerous studies have been done to evaluate if other flu vaccines were associated with GBS. In most studies, no association was found, but two studies suggested that approximately 1 additional person out of 1 million vaccinated people may be at risk for GBS associated with the seasonal influenza vaccine. FDA and CDC will be closely monitoring reports of serious problems following the 2009 H1N1 influenza vaccines, including GBS."

That's why I love the sift. We can love and hate our political commentators/figures at the same time. Frist is not perfect, he has his own issues (Terry Schiavo, anyone?) but Maher is wrong on this issue, imo. Frist makes a good argument, and it isn't a shouting match.

Maher is wrong on this, for sure. I'm with deathcow on questioning the balance between ethics and profits of medical companies generally, but that's no reason to use your TV show to tell people to be afraid of all vaccines, especially H1N1.

On the topic of swine flu vaccines, Maher doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about. And that's even with some major issues to criticize, especially with pretty significant gaps being jumped in the FDA's clinical trials (relying instead on foreign trials, which are of variable reliability) right now because of the rush to get vaccines to market in preparation for if/before shit can hit the fan.

Maybe he's reasonable in questioning the many biases (social, governmental, corporate, etc.) that can influence the adoption of particular vaccines, but it's easy to handwave and fingerpoint without examining any clinical data, the kind of stuff Maher clearly hasn't even farted in the direction of much less mulled over himself.

Also Frist is delusional if he thinks the US has the best healthcare in the world. Then again, this is the same asshole who gave a completely incorrect, uninformed opinion on Schiavo's PVS based on an hour or two of video footage of her.

I have to say that I like Bill Maher a lot. He's not always right and that's fine. He has a lot of smart, interesting guests and panelists on his show who will correct him.

I know this has been said but, Bill is totally clueless, uninformed, paranoid, ignorant, AND dangerous. He is giving an opinion on his show that could kill people. Creationists may be wackos but, at least, they are not a hand in death as in this instance...

Damn I want to just sucker punch him over this. Next he will be telling how differential calculus works as a mechanism of goat fucking and what dark matter is all through simple mind experiments, and then he'll have to leave it there.

^ ^
Actually likes Bill Maher but this was aweful....

I am sorry, but a republican saying "Look at the science." strikes me as high irony.

>> ^nach0s:
That's why I love the sift. We can love and hate our political commentators/figures at the same time. Frist is not perfect, he has his own issues (Terry Schiavo, anyone?) but Maher is wrong on this issue, imo. Frist makes a good argument, and it isn't a shouting match.


This is just what I was thinking.

Still, I wish I knew what to think about this. I normally lean towards not bothering with a flu shot, but I heard on NPR yesterday that 40% of the people being hospitalized for swine flu had no pre-existing conditions.

I have seen someone get extremely ill after getting a flu shot though, and even though I know that it's unlikely, it still comes to mind every time I think about vaccinations.

Where is DocM when you need him?

If you have questions about the scientific merit of a given medical practice, then contact an expert (i.e. an M.D. Ph.D.) and discuss your concerns with them. Go to a library, and read the actual scientific literature pertaining to a given topic.

It is true there is a business side to medicine, but no one controls science. And in the rare instances that science has been influenced by business, it has always corrected itself. (e.g. Some poor graduate student spent 2 years trying to confirm single molecule transistors and never got it to work. The original data was eventually proven fraudulent. See Jan Schon) Since their conception in 1796, vaccines have proven to a be a valuable way to control the spread of viruses.

In conclusion, it is good to question science and medicine. Questions, however, need to be reinforced with controlled scientific experiments, otherwise they are out of ignorance.


>> ^dag:
^Yes, how dare anyone question the all-knowing oracles of medical knowledge.
I think the reason that many geeky type people always toe the main-stream medical line is because they conflate medicine with science (which we all love). Yes, it's almost the same, but if I had to draw it as a venn diagram, there would be a crescent of over-hang. Medicine to me is 80% science and then the rest is filled in with dogma, patriarchy and business ($$).
That crescent of non-science is the part that makes me squirm. I don't think it's that wrong to question medical programs like vaccinations- with the idea that it may be being pushed non-scientifically by the medical industrial complex. (big pharma).
Bill Maher is not a kook.

wow i cant believe the sift is ready to drink the kool-aid, you do know these people will fuck you over for a dollar

Dear anti-vaxxers. Please to me a favor if you're going to refuse getting various shots that will keep you alive. As you're dying, and all that and EMS is trying to save your life. Try not to wipe out humanity on your way out.

I really don't have any patience with people who are against vaccinations in any form. You make my life miserable as it is, and mean that I have to jump through 25 extra hoops.

> going to refuse getting various shots that will keep you alive.

LOL @ swine flu vaccine keeping me alive, you're a real sucker !!! drink it up, dude, enjoy that vaccine it was MADE FOR people like YOU ! We'll take our chances with diseases and our immune systems in my house. ( and we've already done the swine flu anyway )

p.s. people usually live to be about 85 in my family and 90 in my wifes family and most of them dont take any of your "life extending" pharmaceuticals at all.

So remember kiddies, eat those pills, drink those cocktails, accept your injections! The medical industry may be wholly profit driven on your symptoms and despair, but you can rest easy they're doing the best they can for their stockholders.

and oh yeah, for fucks sake, PANIC !!!!!!!

^ It's a good thing here in Ontario I don't pay a damn thing for any vaccinations I choose to get.

Operative word there: "Choose".

I'm a diabetic with a compromised immune system, and if medical science has developed a vaccine that can help minimize any risk of me catching any sort of flu, or ailment, sign me up. Right now I'm knee-deep in a cold that just hit me like a ton of bricks today at work (happens like that, and I hate it) and I'm a little worried because I can't really afford to be sick right now, and most of the cold/flu remedies at the local pharmacy are rather bad for diabetics to take.

Why so worried? I start a new, very high-profile job at the company I work for on Monday. Week one is Quality Assurance and Food Safety Supervisor Training. Showing up with a cold for that... Not a good idea.

>> ^kceaton1:
He is giving an opinion on his show that could kill people.

His opinion isn't going to kill anyone and you ought not to be fear mongering. Just because someone is wrong doesn't mean they should be kept from voicing their opinion.

Some people might take Bill's stance as their own and not get vaccinated. A fraction of those people might get sick with the flu. A fraction of that fraction might become seriously ill and even die as a result. That is still their own fault for taking medical advice from a comedian.

For my part, I won't be getting vaccinated. It's not that I don't believe they work or any such thing, I just tend to respond badly to a lot of medicines and the like and so I take as few of them as I can. I am more likely to take a nap than an aspirin for a headache. I will let my immune system do its thing and if that's not enough, so be it. Natural selection... if I can't hack it then I don't deserve to be here.

Ugh. This crap needs to be seen again.

*promote

Promoting this video back to the front page; last published Tuesday, October 13th, 2009 8:54pm PDT - promote requested by carneval.

I repeat.......4 greatest medical discoveries of all time, antibiotics, antisepsis, anesthesia, and immunizations.

Yeah, he may be schooled, but he didn't believe it did he? That's the problem with so many of these incorrect beliefs... you can't change their mind because they just don't believe what you're saying because it happens to be in line with the government.

Therefore must be wrong somehow.

Frustrating as hell to watch

>> ^spoco2:

Yeah, he may be schooled, but he didn't believe it did he? That's the problem with so many of these incorrect beliefs... you can't change their mind because they just don't believe what you're saying because it happens to be in line with the government.
Therefore must be wrong somehow.
Frustrating as hell to watch


i wouldn't call this schooling, because FRIST could barely string together a coherent point (partly due to Bill)...

what I find frustrating is Frist trying to say FOR PROFIT HEALTHCARE isn't the problem... and he goes on to describe lifestyle and diet as the main cause of all the poor rankings the US receives in regards to healthcare

what it completely ignores is how the lifestyle/diet he's pointing out... isn't singular to the US... but is QUITE common in WESTERN NATIONS... the point of difference is the availability/cost of healthcare... because all it takes is quick glance at those 20 WESTERN NATIONS, that outperform the US at a much cheaper cost.... and you realize, while they ALL have similar lifestyles/diets... the US is the only nation without universal healthcare

that's not to say WESTERN MEDICINE as a whole doesn't fail at emphasizing prevention as opposed to treating conditions after they occur....

just pointing out the fact that the US diet/lifestyle... isn't exactly EXOTIC in WESTERN NATIONS

while UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE is EXOTIC ("scary") in the US

@packo, oh couldn't agree more about universal healthcare. I'm in Australia, and would be broke if it weren't due to us just not having to worry about the cost of medical treatments. It would be scary as hell to think 'Gee, can I afford this life saving operation for my newborn?'

So, yeah. It's not 'Western Medicine', it's the US's retarded model of care that has health insurance companies (for profit companies) stuck right there in between you and the treatment

i agree with everything you just said, but i think you might be over estimating how much of it is science.
it's a great deal business. at least in the US. where medicine is mostly for profit. for huge huge profits.
medical RESEARCH is in fact, science. and i have faith in it. the dispensing of medicine is however, a business.

i'm saying this as someone who has degrees in health science fields. spent 8 years as a health care professional. spent 1/3 of that time doing administrative work. and now owns a business as a CAM practitioner.... which btw, is also a good bit business.

i'd also like to stick up for alternative medicine here.
a good deal of it is bullshit. any results are simply the placebo effect. but i don't think we should discount the placebo effect. it's an amazing mechanism. if you feel less depressed because someone hit you with a tuning fork and you didn't have to take any pills or go to a counselor, then okay. that's awesome. i still think you probably need counseling, but whatever. i also think you should take a good hard look at your diet and how much exercise you're doing. but how much does it cost in the US to go to a counselor, go to a doctor, get your anti-depressants and have a nutritionist and a phsyical trainer help you learn how to excercise and eat right? it's probably cheaper to pay someone $80 to hit you with that tuning fork and convince yourself it's going to work.

I make a decent living practicing complementary health care. but i don't tell anyone they need to be hit with a tuning fork or have someone throw energy beams out of their hands at them. i tell people they need to stretch, and i teach them how. i tell people they need to sleep properly, and i help them do it. i tell people they need to find an effective way to deal with stress, and i give them that. i tell people they need to find a form of exercise that's right for their bodies and lifestyles, and i help them find it. a lot of people just need someone to trust and someone to talk to. and that's why they call me a "therapist". i never tell people to go against their doctor's orders. i never tell anyone to stop taking their medicine or not to be vaccinated. and that's why what i do is COMPLEMENTARY.

we're too quick to dismiss a different approach when it comes to health care.
the same people are also very quick to be able to recognize the problems with our for profit health care systems when it comes to political discussions. the profit motive hasn't just tainted medicine in terms of disparity. it's tainted it in terms of effectiveness. this is where a holistic approach is good. it's not effect to only treat the symptom. if someone is overweight, has high blood pressure, their stress is out of control and they have diabetes. prescribing them pills, while necessary in the short term, is not at all where the "care" should end. i know doctors will also tell their patients to eat right and exercise but they do not teach them how to do it. because for profit health care doesn't think that is profitable. a for profit system does not want you healthy.

soooo... the market has opened up. if the way we practice medicine and viewed health in this country was working, people wouldn't pay to get hit with tuning forks. oh and half of this is a problem with our education system.
>> ^dag:

^Yes, how dare anyone question the all-knowing oracles of medical knowledge.
I think the reason that many geeky type people always toe the main-stream medical line is because they conflate medicine with science (which we all love). Yes, it's almost the same, but if I had to draw it as a venn diagram, there would be a crescent of over-hang. Medicine to me is 80% science and then the rest is filled in with dogma, patriarchy and business ($$).
That crescent of non-science is the part that makes me squirm. I don't think it's that wrong to question medical programs like vaccinations- with the idea that it may be being pushed non-scientifically by the medical industrial complex. (big pharma).
Bill Maher is not a kook.

in my practice i also find that people don't care what research i tell them about. they become interested when the advice i give and the methods i use have helped other people. they come back several times a week or once a month, because after spending an hour with me... they feel better. my business is successful because of word of mouth and repeat clients.

people are only mildly interested in research. people are very interested in their neighbors.

i mostly agree with you, but i would say there are some pretty important difference between the typical lifestyle in the us and the typical lifestyle in other western nations.

for example, people in other western nations tend to walk more and depend on their cars less. even if it's walking to the nearest train or bus station, they still walked 200 steps farther than their american counterparts. this becomes more apparent when you look at the fattest cities in the US and at their public transportation method. houston used to be at the top of the list (it might still be, it's been a while since i've checked).. i grew up in houston, my husband still lives there. public transportation is a BAD. it's weird too because it's such a massive, populous city and every time they've planned a rail system, it gets shelved. it's super hot and super humid and super unsafe, so noone walks. houstonians. drive. everywhere. and. they. are. fat.

i can think of a lot more slight lifestyle difference that i think add up, but i just go too tired to elaborate on all of them. here's the bullet points.
-cultural attitude towards meals (europeans tend to spend more time and eat slower, which is proven to help you eat less)
-other western nations outrank the us in education (use your imagination to come up with the benefits of that)
-social safety net (an american with a $4/day food stamp budget is destined to be a bargain shopper-which means cheap, fatty, unhealthy foods)
blah blah blah >> ^packo:

>> ^spoco2:
Yeah, he may be schooled, but he didn't believe it did he? That's the problem with so many of these incorrect beliefs... you can't change their mind because they just don't believe what you're saying because it happens to be in line with the government.
Therefore must be wrong somehow.
Frustrating as hell to watch

i wouldn't call this schooling, because FRIST could barely string together a coherent point (partly due to Bill)...
what I find frustrating is Frist trying to say FOR PROFIT HEALTHCARE isn't the problem... and he goes on to describe lifestyle and diet as the main cause of all the poor rankings the US receives in regards to healthcare
what it completely ignores is how the lifestyle/diet he's pointing out... isn't singular to the US... but is QUITE common in WESTERN NATIONS... the point of difference is the availability/cost of healthcare... because all it takes is quick glance at those 20 WESTERN NATIONS, that outperform the US at a much cheaper cost.... and you realize, while they ALL have similar lifestyles/diets... the US is the only nation without universal healthcare
that's not to say WESTERN MEDICINE as a whole doesn't fail at emphasizing prevention as opposed to treating conditions after they occur....
just pointing out the fact that the US diet/lifestyle... isn't exactly EXOTIC in WESTERN NATIONS
while UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE is EXOTIC ("scary") in the US