*quality documentary.

Boosting this quality contribution up in the Hot Listing - declared quality by geo321.

wait. what religion isn't a cult?

*PROMOTE

Promoting this video and sending it back into the queue for one more try; last queued Wednesday, September 29th, 2010 5:05am PDT - promote requested by Ryjkyj.

Make sure you go to the actual video, and "like" it there as well. Im sure scientologists will try and rig it

Scil0ns can get fucked by the giant IRS dildo from hell.

I've never understood the appeal of churches, not when there's so much other stuff to be doing.

Here's some; sex, music, art, adrenaline, kites, beaches, family, and a whole host of other things.

>> ^NordlichReiter:

I've never understood the appeal of churches, not when there's so much other stuff to be doing.
Here's some; sex, music, art, adrenaline, kites, beaches, family, and a whole host of other things.



Most churches offer all of those things (except sex, maybe) as a ready-to-go package. Think about it. If you join a church, you'll automatically and immediately get a large family to support and help you. Most of the world's greatest art pieces were inspired by or specifically about religious concepts. Many of the great classical composers wrote music for churches, although modern christian music is simply atrocious. Many churches like spending days out as "youth groups" or whatever. they go to beaches, fly kites, go to roller coaster parks, and some even do skydiving, as well as a host of other things...

I'm an atheist but there IS a reason that churches have such powerful draw on people.

As usual, john sweeney does a brilliant documentary.

>> ^GenjiKilpatrick:

wait. what religion isn't a cult?


Wait, are you really content to just say they are all 'equal'?

So, you don't see any utility in distinguishing between Koresh's Waco sect and Hindu's following in the approximate example of Ghandi?

I'm afraid you might find that such a ludicrously oversimplified world view is... inaccurate.

There are certainly levels of crazy, but they're all in the crazy 'region'.
>> ^bcglorf:

>> ^GenjiKilpatrick:
wait. what religion isn't a cult?

Wait, are you really content to just say they are all 'equal'?
So, you don't see any utility in distinguishing between Koresh's Waco sect and Hindu's following in the approximate example of Ghandi?
I'm afraid you might find that such a ludicrously oversimplified world view is... inaccurate.

Like I said in the preview of this Documentary, what has Scientology done that we should care about? I see here some people not seeing their relatives through...choices of their own. And a woman committing suicide...again a choice of her own. Really I can't find any proof that Scientology is responsible for any deaths whatsoever. So why should I care? Let them worship whatever they want with their stupid "All psychiatrists are evil" nonsense, it doesn't matter. Now back to my Sammich.

Everything that doesn't fit within my personal, subjective world-view is stupid and crazy!!

Didn't watch the doc, but I've got it bookmarked.

So an organization that brainwashes, enslaves, mentally verbally and physically abuses, blackmails and bankrupts innocent people seeking spiritual enrichment, its very own members nonetheless, isn't something humanity should care about?!?!

If you sincerely believe that then you're one sick fuck. Like, you're worst than the videogame cat murder.

Also, probably difficult to see things you aren't looking for.

Victims of Scientology

>> ^Yogi:

Like I said in the preview of this Documentary, what has Scientology done that we should care about? I see here some people not seeing their relatives through...choices of their own. And a woman committing suicide...again a choice of her own. Really I can't find any proof that Scientology is responsible for any deaths whatsoever. So why should I care? Let them worship whatever they want with their stupid "All psychiatrists are evil" nonsense, it doesn't matter. Now back to my Sammich.

>> ^Yogi:

Like I said in the preview of this Documentary, what has Scientology done that we should care about? I see here some people not seeing their relatives through...choices of their own. And a woman committing suicide...again a choice of her own. Really I can't find any proof that Scientology is responsible for any deaths whatsoever. So why should I care? Let them worship whatever they want with their stupid "All psychiatrists are evil" nonsense, it doesn't matter. Now back to my Sammich.


Right, it doesn't matter. Unless you happen to take issue with the overt corporatism and incredible wealth of the church, as gained through exploitation; leading people through a breadcrumb trail of supposed self-development, with soaring costs the further up you go. Unless you happen to take issue with their opposition to freedom of information and of media whererever such things allow for criticism of the church. Unless you happen to take issue with the fact that Scientologists are impregnating themselves into every area of bureaucracy and, in some cases, law enforcement, and will do whatever the CoS tells them to do. Unless you happen to take issue with the outright and blatant propagandism, lies, obfuscation, intimidation, shit-slinging tactics of the CoS. Unless you happen to take issue with the fact that the CoS is an exceptionally streamlined brainwashing engine - a cult in the most obvious sense - who will destroy lives relentlessly just to maintain the cohesion of the church.

They have unimaginable wealth. They can afford any lawyer and they can afford any lawsuit. They can buy their way into whichever parts of society and establishment that they want to. They employ extremely potent indoctrination techniques and they'll keep on growing and spreading, all under the cushy facade of being a "religion". I think that's a problem. You don't have to agree, but at least be honest; when you say "what has Scientology done that *we* should care about", you really mean *I*. Well, I can't speak for you and nor would I presume to, but this cult bothers the fuck out of me, and I'm not going to stop protesting the CoS any time soon.

Enjoy your sammich.

>> ^GenjiKilpatrick:

So an organization that brainwashes, enslaves, mentally verbally and physically abuses, blackmails and bankrupts innocent people seeking spiritual enrichment, its very own members nonetheless, isn't something humanity should care about?!?!
If you sincerely believe that then you're one sick fuck. Like, you're worst than the videogame cat murder.
Also, probably difficult to see things you aren't looking for.
Victims of Scientology
>> ^Yogi:
Like I said in the preview of this Documentary, what has Scientology done that we should care about? I see here some people not seeing their relatives through...choices of their own. And a woman committing suicide...again a choice of her own. Really I can't find any proof that Scientology is responsible for any deaths whatsoever. So why should I care? Let them worship whatever they want with their stupid "All psychiatrists are evil" nonsense, it doesn't matter. Now back to my Sammich.



Again there's no evidence that anything they're doing is worse than the catholic church. You should bust in on their mass and scream that they're brainwashing and enslaving people. They have choice here, they can join or they can not. I don't see enough evidence to point to that they're ruining anyones lives or snatching people off the street and doing terrible things to them. If you wanna get mad about this sort of thing fine, but it tells me that we have it really really good in America if an organization that is completely voluntary an mostly innocuous is getting this much static. I mean other countries have real shit to worry about, people in black vans pulling their loved ones from their homes and killing them in alleys...and we're concerned because these people follow us around with cameras?

>> ^Gallowflak:

>> ^Yogi:
Like I said in the preview of this Documentary, what has Scientology done that we should care about? I see here some people not seeing their relatives through...choices of their own. And a woman committing suicide...again a choice of her own. Really I can't find any proof that Scientology is responsible for any deaths whatsoever. So why should I care? Let them worship whatever they want with their stupid "All psychiatrists are evil" nonsense, it doesn't matter. Now back to my Sammich.

Right, it doesn't matter. Unless you happen to take issue with the overt corporatism and incredible wealth of the church, as gained through exploitation; leading people through a breadcrumb trail of supposed self-development, with soaring costs the further up you go. Unless you happen to take issue with their opposition to freedom of information and of media whererever such things allow for criticism of the church. Unless you happen to take issue with the fact that Scientologists are impregnating themselves into every area of bureaucracy and, in some cases, law enforcement, and will do whatever the CoS tells them to do. Unless you happen to take issue with the outright and blatant propagandism, lies, obfuscation, intimidation, shit-slinging tactics of the CoS. Unless you happen to take issue with the fact that the CoS is an exceptionally streamlined brainwashing engine - a cult in the most obvious sense - who will destroy lives relentlessly just to maintain the cohesion of the church.
They have unimaginable wealth. They can afford any lawyer and they can afford any lawsuit. They can buy their way into whichever parts of society and establishment that they want to. They employ extremely potent indoctrination techniques and they'll keep on growing and spreading, all under the cushy facade of being a "religion". I think that's a problem. You don't have to agree, but at least be honest; when you say "what has Scientology done that we should care about", you really mean I . Well, I can't speak for you and nor would I presume to, but this cult bothers the fuck out of me, and I'm not going to stop protesting the CoS any time soon.
Enjoy your sammich.


If you want to fight Corporatism that matters start with Monsanto. Start with Newscorp...start with something that has a very large and easily studied effect on every Americans lives. Not just the people who join the Church of Scientology or investigate the church of scientology. If this was such a big block of power in the United States you actually think this documentary would get made? This isn't something that should even concern us, compared to so many other things in our government and corporate entities right now...this is the least of our worries.

Firstly, to deal with issues - any issues - in a christmas-list style prioritized manner is absurd. You point out some valid issues that do necessitate a response, but the idea that we should exclude "lesser" problems from consideration until the big ones are dealt with is, I'm sorry to say, patently ridiculous. You simply cannot defend that approach rationally in any way that holds water.

Secondly, the premise that these people have choice, and that they are destroying their lives and becoming indoctrinated by their own election : yes, they are. There is something vaguely audible in me which says "when people are the architects of their own suffering or misfortune, let them suffer". However, humans are not sublime creatures and are flawed in a great many fatal ways. People's minds are accessible by the forces of manipulation, indoctrination and propaganda. These people are not acting autonomously. If they were, I would agree with your idea that they're making these decisions independently, for themselves, as intelligent and self-determining agents. I think that argument must fall to pieces when confronted with the fact of how completely people's minds, and intelligence, can be compromised, distorted, abused and subjugated by the sorts of techniques that Scientology employs.

@Yogi
Scientology is no worse than the Catholic Church, eh?

You mean the same catholics church that RAPES PREPUBESCENT BOYS?! By the truck load.

" Scientology hasn't killed nearly as many people or extorted nearly as much money as the Catholic church. I mean, they haven't even committed mass conversion & genocide yet so why don't you just leave them be, huh? "

How thick is your skull that you can't comprehend how fucked a viewpoint that is?

You're irrational.

>> ^GenjiKilpatrick:

@<a rel="nofollow" href="http://videosift.com/member/Yogi" title="member since May 15th, 2009" class="profilelink">Yogi
Scientology is no worse than the Catholic Church, eh?
You mean the same catholics church that RAPES PREPUBESCENT BOYS?! By the truck load.
" Scientology hasn't killed nearly as many people or extorted nearly as much money as the Catholic church. I mean, they haven't even committed mass conversion & genocide yet so why don't you just leave them be, huh? "
How thick is your skull that you can't comprehend how fucked a viewpoint that is?
You're irrational.


Is there any evidence they've killed anyone? Is there any evidence they're about to? No you're just crazy.

Look I get you want to be up in arms about this, it's something you've put a lot of stock into. It's pretty much like 9/11 conspiracy theories. You can talk and post and tell people they're full of shit when they question why this is such a big deal but you've missed the point. You've been completely neutralized, we don't have to worry about you actually bringing about any sort of change that's meaningful since you're going after this silly Religion.

You won't help anyone, you won't effect anything, you'll just stamp your feet and get all pissed off over the internet about things that simply aren't important. Now run along and keep doing that, I'm going over here to feed these homeless people some sammiches

Puerile, nonsensical and as absurd as I've ever seen. To dismiss anti-Scientology sentiment as inhabiting the same intellectual ground as 9/11 conspiracies is fucking inane. To deride GenjiKilpatrick as being ineffectual in the world and contributing nothing, on the basis of no evidence whatsoever - and simply because you disagree with his opposition to the CoS - is despicable. I don't understand what's wrong with you. Can nobody debate or discuss ideas anymore, without restorting to flailing and frothing like a toddler?

As an anecdote, my wife participated in a Scientology protest a few years ago. For two weeks straight she was stalked home by a Scientology goon who had memorized her schedule and route from work. It happens to more people than I can count. I don't think Scientology could ever be legitimately described as a non-issue.

>> ^Gallowflak:

Puerile, nonsensical and as absurd as I've ever seen. To dismiss anti-Scientology sentiment as inhabiting the same intellectual ground as 9/11 conspiracies is fucking inane. To deride GenjiKilpatrick as being ineffectual in the world and contributing nothing, on the basis of no evidence whatsoever - and simply because you disagree with his opposition to the CoS - is despicable. I don't understand what's wrong with you. Can nobody debate or discuss ideas anymore, without restorting to flailing and frothing like a toddler?
As an anecdote, my wife participated in a Scientology protest a few years ago. For two weeks straight she was stalked home by a Scientology goon who had memorized her schedule and route from work. It happens to more people than I can count. I don't think Scientology could ever be legitimately described as a non-issue.


You call what I did there flailing and frothing like a toddler? Really am I completely off the deep end saying that this internet argument won't amount to anything? That defeating CoS which you won't succeed in doing will be a boon to everyones existence? I'm not out of line here, this isn't an argument, it's me saying people who believe that CoS is a terrible scourge and deserves everyones attention and must be stopped is wrong. You're wrong if you think that we have to worry about CoS over almost ANY major issue in this country. People are actually dying for things we can fix easily and CoS isn't what's killing them. Grow up.

EDIT: Also if that's true about your wife...why didn't you call the cops? That's something you can do easily, but your story probably isn't true anyways you're just engaging in the same nasty tactics as you accuse CoS of doing...just making shit up...to be right in an argument on the internet. That's just sad.

*religion *cult

Adding video to channels (Cult, Religion) - requested by xxovercastxx.

I'm gonna add that I digress. Maybe I was out of line with what I was saying so I'll just point out that I've never felt threatened by Scientology or by any Scientologists and I really don't think it's in their interest in threatening me if I just leave them alone so that's what I'm going to do.

Actually, @Yogi was fairly calm and collected in all his statements, even after @GenjiKilpatrick called him a "sick fuck" and said he was worse than an animal abuser.

And you say yogi is flailing and frothing like a toddler?

I don't entirely agree with his viewpoint, though he has some valid points, but he's not the one who needs a timeout.

>> ^Gallowflak:

Puerile, nonsensical and as absurd as I've ever seen. To dismiss anti-Scientology sentiment as inhabiting the same intellectual ground as 9/11 conspiracies is fucking inane. To deride GenjiKilpatrick as being ineffectual in the world and contributing nothing, on the basis of no evidence whatsoever - and simply because you disagree with his opposition to the CoS - is despicable. I don't understand what's wrong with you. Can nobody debate or discuss ideas anymore, without restorting to flailing and frothing like a toddler?

@Yogi and @xxovercastxx

Look, the only reason I said anything was cause Yogi asserts that Scientology is unimportant & is no threat to humanity's well being, which clearly isn't true.

Look at these photos of Lisa McPherson and Josephus Havenith then tell me again that the Church of Scientology is "mostly innocuous".

It's quite evident that CoS's ideology is on par with Jonestown massacre level of insanity.

You're essentially stating that the terrified mothers & husbands clutching there babies willing committed suicide and we shouldn't waste our time with things like that.

Hence, the "sick fuck" comment.

So excuse me for being indignant, it just irritates the fuck out of me to hear a person defend the atrocious behaviors of any religion or abusive organization. Especially with such weak arguments.

Is there any evidence they've killed anyone? Is there any evidence they're about to?

Yes and Yes.

I've never felt threatened by Scientology or by any Scientologists and I really don't think it's in their interest in threatening me if I just leave them alone so that's what I'm going to do.

That's exactly what the compliant citizen's of virtually every dictatorship in the world tell themselves as well. If I just leave them alone, they won't threaten me. Historically that only holds true until your luck runs out, or more frequently the luck of someone you care about.

Stop defending this damaging cult by implying that "it isn't that bad", or that it's no worse than your run of the mill local church. Those are the kinds of lies that help this cult draw in more victims, and no matter how small you consider the cult to be in the scale of global problems, it's still better to fight the problems we face rather than contributing to them by refusing to recognize them as such.

Why is "arguing" on the internet any less valid than arguing in any other situation. Yogi, you've picked that up from somewhere and repeating it over and over as some kind of tool to discredit what's being said that you don't agree with. Poor.

>> ^Yogi:
Like I said in the preview of this Documentary, what has Scientology done that we should care about? I see here some people not seeing their relatives through...choices of their own. And a woman committing suicide...again a choice of her own. Really I can't find any proof that Scientology is responsible for any deaths whatsoever. So why should I care? Let them worship whatever they want with their stupid "All psychiatrists are evil" nonsense, it doesn't matter. Now back to my Sammich.


It appears to all who are reading your post that you have not had any direct contact with someone who has been affected by any cult (let alone scientology), and therefore do not care in the slightest. Having read your replies to the responses that informed you of entirely valid answers to your original question I can see that you prefer to remain ignorant. That's fine by me matey, it's your choice to remain ignorant!

I used to think the ICOC was one of the worst cults because of their tactics of disconnection (similar to the disconnection practices of Scientology and is exercised early on so that the only people a victim is in contact with are also members of the cult thereby ensuring that complete social disconnection can be enforced should the victim ever become non-compliant) and their requirement of regular tithe payments once they've successfully cut you off from people who aren't members of the cult. These last few years the practices of Scientology make the ICOC look reasonable in contrast.

If you're unwilling to acknowledge that what scientology has been doing is extremely damaging to individuals and much more so than accepted religions such as Buddhism, Christianity, Judaism, and so on then you are deliberately shielding yourself from the media. Wait, that's what scientologists do isn't it? Better be careful there mate, you wouldn't want to be mistaken for a scientologist!

>> ^bcglorf:

Is there any evidence they've killed anyone? Is there any evidence they're about to?
Yes and Yes.
I've never felt threatened by Scientology or by any Scientologists and I really don't think it's in their interest in threatening me if I just leave them alone so that's what I'm going to do.
That's exactly what the compliant citizen's of virtually every dictatorship in the world tell themselves as well. If I just leave them alone, they won't threaten me. Historically that only holds true until your luck runs out, or more frequently the luck of someone you care about.
Stop defending this damaging cult by implying that "it isn't that bad", or that it's no worse than your run of the mill local church. Those are the kinds of lies that help this cult draw in more victims, and no matter how small you consider the cult to be in the scale of global problems, it's still better to fight the problems we face rather than contributing to them by refusing to recognize them as such.


When I asked for evidence I wasn't asking for a link to some website. That's not proof of anything...just go to wikipedia if you want examples of how that's not proof. A little background...I study genocides and as a consequence dictatorships...CoS simply isn't even close to coming to power in this country and imposing their will on us. It's just something I'm concerned with while I study actual genocides and actual torment of people making the clothes that you're wearing right now. That's not a concern for you yet some people...voluntarily choosing to not see their families (if it was forced you could call the cops) isn't a concern for me when placed against the backdrop of actual horror. This is made up horror and rage, I'm not interested.

>> ^alien_concept:

Why is "arguing" on the internet any less valid than arguing in any other situation. Yogi, you've picked that up from somewhere and repeating it over and over as some kind of tool to discredit what's being said that you don't agree with. Poor.


I didn't mean to put that spin on it being less valid except that the presentation of evidence is usually less valid. Look what I got in return for a request for citations, a link to a website that looks like it's all about hating the CoS. Hardly what I'd call credible.

>> ^Reefie:

>> ^Yogi:
Like I said in the preview of this Documentary, what has Scientology done that we should care about? I see here some people not seeing their relatives through...choices of their own. And a woman committing suicide...again a choice of her own. Really I can't find any proof that Scientology is responsible for any deaths whatsoever. So why should I care? Let them worship whatever they want with their stupid "All psychiatrists are evil" nonsense, it doesn't matter. Now back to my Sammich.

It appears to all who are reading your post that you have not had any direct contact with someone who has been affected by any cult (let alone scientology), and therefore do not care in the slightest.


Yeah you know who I've had direct contact with. Genocide victims...rape victims...soldiers with PTSD. And with that context of War and hate and death, I'm suddenly not caring of a little cult that people choose to join, and choose to stay with. If they are not choosing it then call the cops...if they are then it's not an issue I'm interested in. I'm interested in the priest speaking out for the poor who is machine gunned in an alley. I'm interested in the company knowingly spreading deadly chemicals where our children play and not being allowed to prosecute them. I'm worried about those who cannot defend themselves. I'm completely unaware of Scientologists gunning people down in alleys and using the government to take over whatever they want. The day that happens let me know and I'll be beside you. Right now though...it just sounds like they're of less importance than what I'm lobbying the government for and spending my time studying and worrying about.

When I asked for evidence I wasn't asking for a link to some website.

The examples on the website I gave you are connected to real world court cases against the CoS. You don't get to wish them away be refusing to recognize their existence.

It's just something I'm concerned with while I study actual genocides and actual torment of people making the clothes that you're wearing right now. That's not a concern for you...

Wrong.

Genocides abroad are my concern. I have family members that've risked their lives overseas to prevent genocides abroad. I have friends in my community who are in my community for the express purpose of escaping those genocides abroad. You can stop your ludicrous line of superiority and guilt right there, thank you very much.

yet some people...voluntarily choosing to not see their families (if it was forced you could call the cops) isn't a concern for me when placed against the backdrop of actual horror.

I understood that the first time you said it, and each time you've repeated it. Let me try and reject it more clearly for you:
Domestic problems are not an excuse to ignore foreign problems.
Foreign problems are not an excuse to ignore domestic problems.
Huge problems are not an excuse to ignore smaller problems.
Smaller problems are not an excuse to ignore larger problems.

Scientology IS a problem, and it's not just a small one. Just because genocides are a bigger problem, doesn't change the fact that Scientology is still a problem.

Scientology is a big problem. Your repeated refusal to recognize that is rightly and justifiably angering people who know and may even have personally experienced the problem.

You might as well go down to the cancer ward and tell all the children they don't really have serious problems. There are African orphans with HIV unlikely to live long enough to die from AIDS after all. If you do that and everyone gets mad at you, I'm sorry, but you do NOT get to throw up your hands say you did nothing wrong.

>> ^Yogi:

>> ^Gallowflak:
Puerile, nonsensical and as absurd as I've ever seen. To dismiss anti-Scientology sentiment as inhabiting the same intellectual ground as 9/11 conspiracies is fucking inane. To deride GenjiKilpatrick as being ineffectual in the world and contributing nothing, on the basis of no evidence whatsoever - and simply because you disagree with his opposition to the CoS - is despicable. I don't understand what's wrong with you. Can nobody debate or discuss ideas anymore, without restorting to flailing and frothing like a toddler?
As an anecdote, my wife participated in a Scientology protest a few years ago. For two weeks straight she was stalked home by a Scientology goon who had memorized her schedule and route from work. It happens to more people than I can count. I don't think Scientology could ever be legitimately described as a non-issue.

You call what I did there flailing and frothing like a toddler? Really am I completely off the deep end saying that this internet argument won't amount to anything? That defeating CoS which you won't succeed in doing will be a boon to everyones existence? I'm not out of line here, this isn't an argument, it's me saying people who believe that CoS is a terrible scourge and deserves everyones attention and must be stopped is wrong. You're wrong if you think that we have to worry about CoS over almost ANY major issue in this country. People are actually dying for things we can fix easily and CoS isn't what's killing them. Grow up.
EDIT: Also if that's true about your wife...why didn't you call the cops? That's something you can do easily, but your story probably isn't true anyways you're just engaging in the same nasty tactics as you accuse CoS of doing...just making shit up...to be right in an argument on the internet. That's just sad.


I call what you did there "flailing and frothing like a toddler" as an expression of some misplaced hyperbole. The rest of your response contains things I've already responded to.

Large issues do not require that small issues be excluded from consideration. That's ridiculous. It's also ridiculous to compare the relative ferocity of problems when they're not related to one another. You can apply the same approach to medicine for a taste of how absurd it is; abandoning Parkinson's research in favour of a treatment for cancer, for example. Well, that's not how it works.

And no, Yogi, this "internet argument" won't amount to anything that's going to end up in the historical record. But I disagree with you. That is important enough to me to warrant an opposition to what you said.

I'm really not sure what you're arguing, though. It seems to be that your position is as I outlined in the second paragraph here, and that Scientology isn't a problem worth investing one's time in. I understand that there are issues in the world that have obscured others in your kaleidoscope of subjectivity, but those that don't concern you aren't unworthy of concern. You come across as a little bit solipsistic, and it makes me uncomfortable.

And don't call me a liar. There's no faster way to disintegrate your own legitimacy in a discussion, and it's a tactic used by those who feel like they're backed up into a corner. Tastes like ad hominem.

Yogi was fairly calm and collected in all his statements, even after GenjiKilpatrick called him a "sick fuck" and said he was worse than an animal abuser. And you say yogi is flailing and frothing like a toddler? I don't entirely agree with his viewpoint, though he has some valid points, but he's not the one who needs a timeout.

I disagree. Perhaps I should have kept from responding to his reaction after Genji's post, but you can't claim that Yogi was being calm and collected in light of his response. You just can't. I'm not going to quote it because I trust that you've read it already, but he blasted anti-CoS as intellectually invalid by comparison to 9/11 conspiracies, and then blasted GenjiKilpatrick, claiming that he would amount to nothing altruistically, in a clear attempt to degrade his opponent. Both of these points stem from an underlying disdain for those who oppose his proposition, and a desire to reduce the potency of both the arguments and one of the people making them.

That's not calm and collected, that's common and seedy. It happens too much, and I see it too often, in all kinds of debates. I'm sorry, but I don't think it's acceptable for you to defend tactics like that.

It's all very well to infiltrate, plant a comment and exfiltrate, but if you want to be involved, be involved. Don't do a drive-by assessment and leave it hanging in the troposphere.

To that end, a question : which points of his are valid ones, that still endure after being responded to?

Edit : I done broked the comment system. I hope you'll be alright with italics.

I'd also like to add that I perceived the "calm and collected" statement, as well as the idea that someone here needs to take a time-out, as a derision of my commitment to the argument, as if I need to sit down and take a chill pill. Well, I'll not apologize for my passion on this issue and I'll have no-one else apologize on my behalf. I expect that my opposition can suffer the intensity of a proper argument. The thrashing and flailing comment was a low-point, I confess. None of the rest of it has received any response whatsoever.

Well fuck it I might as well admit. I am a practicing member of CoS and I'll have the last laugh when I leave on my spaceship muhahahahaha.

Oh that's my way of saying we're done here.

>> ^Yogi:

Well fuck it I might as well admit. I am a practicing member of CoS and I'll have the last laugh when I leave on my spaceship muhahahahaha.
Oh that's my way of saying we're done here.


Bon voyage, brave traveller.

...so that's what my Acura looks like when it's clean

Wall of text in 3... 2... 1...

@Gallowflak

Let me go post by post here...

Yogi asks why he should care. He states that he hasn't seen any solid proof that COS has caused any deaths. He thinks they're stupid and crazy, and there's not much you can do about stupid, crazy people.

It seems to me the correct response, if you disagree with him, would be to provide examples. Instead, GK starts building a chorus line of straw men. Yogi is a sick fuck. Every time Yogi asks a skeptical question, God kills a kitten.

Your first response is solid. You don't present evidence, but you do clearly explain why you have a problem with COS.

Yogi tells GK that he doesn't see enough evidence that they're a large problem; There are bigger problems that require attention. Obviously you disagree with this, but it's a valid position and there are no fallacies or childish outbursts.

Yogi replies to you, listing some examples of things he perceives as bigger problems that are more deserving of attention. Scientologists account for about .0007% of the world population and these people are joining voluntarily. The numbers are something I just looked up, but it's one of Yogi's points. I'd say it's a very insightful one.

You say prioritizing problems is irrational and ridiculous, but you don't say why. I'd be interested to hear you back that up.

GK says little boys are apparently shipped in bulk to Catholics so that they may be raped and adds another strawman to the line.

Yogi gets a little irrational with his argument here, saying GK is crazy. He compares arguing over this to arguing over 9/11 conspiracies, which is misunderstood by just about everyone to be categorizing the two of them as equivalents.

You call Yogi out on his poor argument though, in my opinion, you overplay it. You also add a strawman to the party by misrepresenting his statement about 9/11 conspiracies. You seem shocked that someone would respond with hostility to being called an irrational, thick-skulled, sick fuck who might kill kittens.

GK's next post is a response to me, which I'll address in a separate comment.

Yogi calling you a liar was not on screen when I wrote my comment. That was quite bad form. Things have somewhat degraded since then.

And now I come to your response to me. I said he was fairly calm and collected. He did wander toward poor form as I mentioned above. I can actually claim he was fairly calm and collected and, in fact, I did. You say I can't. Why not?

You bring up the 9/11 thing again. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you just misread it because you don't seem like you're interested in misrepresenting his argument on purpose. Or maybe you are since you've also twisted his statement about this argument not accomplishing anything to mean that GK will never accomplish anything.

He "blasted" GK, who frankly could use a blasting after that temper tantrum, and yet you, who claims to value honest, productive debate, defend GK. Nothing anyone could say would degrade GK any more than his own "argument", which really doesn't fit any formal definition of "argument" that I recognize. So who has disdain for for his opponents, again?

It wasn't so much my intent to defend Yogi as it was to point out perceived hypocrisy in you calling him out for childish behavior and saying nothing about GK.

Are you referring to me or Yogi doing a drive-by assessment? I'm not clear on this one.

The comment system has been broked for months. It's sort of been broke by design since the 4.0 upgrade and then it also doesn't work as designed, which, I guess, makes it double-broked.

I was implying GK needed a time-out, not you.

He certainly had made no such assertion by the time you went nuts and I don't think he has since, but I might have missed something.

Lisa's death was negligent homicide at worst. I'm not saying that's ok, I'm just trying to keep it in perspective. Josephus's death is very strange, but there has been no evidence of foul play, that I'm aware of. It certainly doesn't look good for COS, but the evidence to claim they are responsible is not there either.

I don't have any love for COS, but I also see it as a drop in the bucket. It seems to get a disproportionate slice of the rage pie, to me.

The COS may well be insane, but it's neither illegal nor immoral to be insane. [side note: Is it really correct to refer to a mass suicide as a massacre?]

The problem isn't your indignance, it's your off-the-wall outrage at Yogi. Most of the things you're raging over aren't even things he's said; they're things you've put in his mouth. You repeatedly misrepresent his statements and then hulk out over what you yourself said.

Don't talk about Yogi's "weak arguments" when you've so far failed to make any arguments at all.

While this may be insulting, I hope you'll recognize it as a critique rather than an insult. You undercut your own position when you act like this in a debate, at least in the eyes of the people who matter: the opponents. Putting together a convincing argument in the eyes of the people who already agree with you may get you comment upvotes, but it doesn't make any progress when it comes to popularizing your views.

>> ^GenjiKilpatrick:

Look, the only reason I said anything was cause Yogi asserts that Scientology is unimportant & is no threat to humanity's well being, which clearly isn't true.
Look at these photos of Lisa McPherson and Josephus Havenith then tell me again that the Church of Scientology is "mostly innocuous".
It's quite evident that CoS's ideology is on par with Jonestown massacre level of insanity.
You're essentially stating that the terrified mothers & husbands clutching there babies willing committed suicide and we shouldn't waste our time with things like that.
Hence, the "sick fuck" comment.
So excuse me for being indignant, it just irritates the fuck out of me to hear a person defend the atrocious behaviors of any religion or abusive organization. Especially with such weak arguments.

"Is it a religion, or is it a racket?"

"you know,... they're not necessarily mutually exclusive, are they?"

(from 12:30 into part 3/4)

Great job, L. Ron, you fucker. You wanted to see if you could create a religion based on science fiction and you did it. But at what cost to humanity?

*promote

Promoting this video back to the front page; last published Wednesday, September 29th, 2010 10:54am PDT - promote requested by lavoll.

this thread is a total fapkill....

Legally:

Religion: non-profit organization that does not require money to participate or practice its beliefs, although donations are accepted.
Cult: profit organization that attempts to extract your life savings in order to participate in rituals and practice its beliefs.

Scientology must have some pretty good lobbyists to avoid being classified legally as a cult.

>> ^Yogi:
Yeah you know who I've had direct contact with. Genocide victims...rape victims...soldiers with PTSD. And with that context of War and hate and death, I'm suddenly not caring of a little cult that people choose to join, and choose to stay with. If they are not choosing it then call the cops...if they are then it's not an issue I'm interested in. I'm interested in the priest speaking out for the poor who is machine gunned in an alley. I'm interested in the company knowingly spreading deadly chemicals where our children play and not being allowed to prosecute them. I'm worried about those who cannot defend themselves. I'm completely unaware of Scientologists gunning people down in alleys and using the government to take over whatever they want. The day that happens let me know and I'll be beside you. Right now though...it just sounds like they're of less importance than what I'm lobbying the government for and spending my time studying and worrying about.


I don't think anyone is claiming that Scientology is the greatest threat to human existence. That isn't the point at all. Some people are just saying they think it is a serious problem that they care about. I applaud your work with people who have suffered genocide, rape, and PTSD. I really do. I, for one, can't claim anything nearly as noble as that. But consider your attitude here being applied to those victims you have worked with. "Oh, you have PTSD? Well, I don't care because this other person got raped so I can't be bothered with you." "Oh, you got raped? Well, I don't care because this other person was affected by a genocide so I can't be bothered with you." I think you would agree that these statements would be abhorrent and absurd. My only point is that even if something worse exists in the world, a lesser problem can still merit attention and discussion.

...Not done watching yet, but something struck me:

Why does Sweeny apologize, multiple times, for his angry outburst during his previous examination of Scientology? I can see him admitting that his reaction did no good, and was in fact probably exactly what they were trying to provoke him to do, as well as possibly saying that it wasn't particularly professional.

However, one cannot interview someone in a professional manner if they are constantly being interrupted, called names, etc. About the only way I imagine that he could have handled that situation better would have been to break into full-on farce and talk over their interruptions with non sequiturs.

$cientologist: This is an e-meter. It measures the presence of ...
Sweeny: I had a telephone for breakfast today. It was ringlicious.

$cientologist: Psychology is a lie! They just want to sell ...
Sweeny: Freud was a hamster that smelled of elderberries!

One good turn of farce deserves another.

*edit:
Finally finished, my connection was really slow to buffer that all. Two more thoughts:
1) A lot of their tactics seem like Fred Phelps' loonies: Provoke, act outraged at the reaction you are fishing for, and attempt to discredit or apply leverage to your opponents via their reactions.
2) The saddest part of the video: there are apparently quite a few people who get their heads on straight enough to break with the official branch of Scientology, yet still buy into the "core beliefs" enough to follow a "reformation".

@xxovercastxx

I apologize for my tardiness. I'll try to slice my way through your response while the aftertaste of this thread still lingers. It's rapidly fading from memory.

1. Relating to the proposition that prioritizing issues is invalid

This seems to be an argument that arises logically and naturally. Starting from the top, the quantity of world resources exceeds the requirements of any given problem at any given time. The idea that lesser issues ought to be sidelined until we have resolved the greater ones, amongst which we might consider genocides, global warming, poverty and disease, strikes me as both bizarre and having no logical foundation to stand on.

I share, completely, the concerns and convictions that relate to those greater problems, and they are indeed deserving of all of our collective attention. However, the human species, and its capacity for problem solving, are not analogous to a single-core CPU; we are capable of confronting more than one thing at one time. We need not be exclusivist, dealing with issues in a step-by-step manner until we've worked our way down the chain of strife, and to contend that lesser issues are not even worth our time while greater evils remain is daft and short-sighted.

2. Consent

You mention Yogi's point about the voluntary nature of joining and participating in the Church of Scientology. Many of the techniques that Scientology employs to keep people in the church, to keep them isolated from information and criticism of the church, and to disconnect people from those outside the church are outlined in the very video to which this thread belongs. I do not believe that consent makes legitimate the manipulation of people in the church to stay in the church. I do not believe that consent granted by someone of compromised judgement is legitimate. I don't believe that these premises give me a legitimate moral basis for acting contrary to people's wishes, when their judgement is compromised and consent is ill-given, but I do think it must negate the idea that these people are acting autonomously, sensibly, intelligently and with their best interests in mind.

Basically, I say that their choices are sometimes invalid in cases where their independence has been compromised, but I also say that I have no right to intervene and contradict whatever free will they're exerting. Manipulation, propaganda and indoctrination are they key words, and they're techniques being used to enormous effect in the CoS, as the documentary above illustrates quite well.

3. 9/11 conspiracy comparison / straw-man assessment

"Look I get you want to be up in arms about this, it's something you've put a lot of stock into. It's pretty much like 9/11 conspiracy theories. You can talk and post and tell people they're full of shit when they question why this is such a big deal but you've missed the point. You've been completely neutralized, we don't have to worry about you actually bringing about any sort of change that's meaningful since you're going after this silly Religion."

I still don't think I overplayed it. I understand what you're getting at, but I believe my interpretation is closer to what he meant.

>Look I get you want to be up in arms about this, it's something you've put a lot of stock into. It's pretty much like 9/11 conspiracy theories.

This statement stands by itself. It's not connected to the following except by proximity, which is :

>You can talk and post and tell people they're full of shit when they question why this is such a big deal but you've missed the point.

In the second portion of this, Yogi is referring to the current discussion, and both my and Genji's disagreement with the idea that the CoS is no big deal. Thus the second sentence is self-contained and the 9/11 conspiracy statement is concluded immediately after it's mentioned. Logically, this must mean that a connection, even if vague, is being made between two very different positions : he's saying that our, or mine, or Genji's objectivity is compromised to the extent that we are almost fanatical. That is the comparison being made, and the comparison to which I have been referring.

When I say that Yogi was suggesting our objectivity was compromised, several things give it away. The biggest is "want to be up in arms about this". "Want to" implies a personal investment that we'd not be willing to surrender and that the participation goes beyond a moral assessment, and into the realm of the irrational. "It's something you've put a lot of stock into" suggests, again, a personal investment that mandates never surrendering in argument, and having an irrational attachment to your position. Thirdly, "it's pretty much like 9/11 conspiracy theories". There are several ways you can interpret this, but it suggests to me that he thinks the opposition is fundamentally irrational, disconnected from reality and deeply biased to a particular outcome, irregardless of the actual conditions from which you draw your moral conclusion about the CoS. Thus, he seemed to think that the sentiment was immovable and the argument was only doing the bidding of an invulnerable bias.

I disagree with you. I don't think it was a straw man that I installed, I think it was a valid and accurate interpretation of what he was saying. I will concede, though, that it's easy to misread me as misreading him, based on what mention I made of the 9/11 thing. If that makes sense.

4. Genji suggesting Yogi was an irrational, thick-skulled, sick fuck who might kill kittens

I wasn't shocked. I thought it was in bad taste at the time, and I still do. I'm not used to the dynamics of debates that aren't 1-on-1, and I make no apology for it.

5. The Genji-won't-do-nothin'; the twisting of a statement

>"You've been completely neutralized, we don't have to worry about you actually bringing about any sort of change that's meaningful since you're going after this silly Religion.

You won't help anyone, you won't effect anything, you'll just stamp your feet and get all pissed off over the internet about things that simply aren't important. Now run along and keep doing that, I'm going over here to feed these homeless people some sammiches"

This comment, to me, suggests and suggested that Yogi was implying the following, and forgive my shoddy paraphrasing:

"You are absorbed by a non-issue. You could be investing your time in an actual problem, and perhaps be contributing to a resolution. You will have no effect on anything important, because you are involved in something that is a waste of your time; an irrelevant problem."

"You won't help anyone, you won't effect anything" needs no interpretation or translation of any kind. Surely this statement is unambiguous. Was I really twisting his statement? Perhaps I could've articulated myself better, but was I wrong? I say not, and I think as I did then.

6. My First Hypocrisy : An adventure in target management, Drive-by commenting, etc.

You're right that I should've commented on what GK actually said. It's not hypocrisy, but it was unfair and unbalanced.

I was referring to you with the drive-by assessment comment. I felt as if you had installed yourself into the discussion and had promptly left it, when there seemed to be no need for moderation. I think, in light of the scope of the post I'm responding to, I'd be happy to apologize for that.

I didn't realize you meant GK. Now I do. Woo.

I think that's it. Thanks.

Booyah! How's that for a fucking wall of text! Time for a scotch.

That is some alarmingly good debate going on guys!

To sum it all up - Scientology is bad, mmkay?

Scientology's response:

A nebbish, soft-bodied British reporter peers behind the mysterious Scientology curtain to expose his own anger management issues. He returns a second time to save face. Will he succeed? More tonight on BBC.

*dead

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