It is illegal to be the salt of the earth, you have to be a consumer of salty based consumer goods. "Unlicensed milk plant", I hate to break it to the FDA, but milk comes from cows, not plants /trollface.

"Diseases that pasteurization can prevent include tuberculosis, brucellosis, diphtheria, scarlet fever and Q-fever; it also kills the harmful bacteria Salmonella, Listeria, Yersinia, Campylobacter, Staphylococcus aureus, and Escherichia coli 157 [11][12] among others."

Need I say more?

>> ^EMPIRE:

"Diseases that pasteurization can prevent include tuberculosis, brucellosis, diphtheria, scarlet fever and Q-fever; it also kills the harmful bacteria Salmonella, Listeria, Yersinia, Campylobacter, Staphylococcus aureus, and Escherichia coli 157 [11][12] among others."
Need I say more?


Cars can kill you, same with illegal drugs, so yes, you do.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag.(show it anyway)

What bullshit. Use of crushing, excessive force FTL. We drink raw milk. In Australia it's marketed as "BATH MILK - NOT FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION".

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag.(show it anyway)

*promote. This could use some exposure.

Promoting this video and sending it back into the queue for one more try; last queued Thursday, August 4th, 2011 7:37am PDT - promote requested by dag.

I definitely wouldn't drink it, but it's definitely in their right to do so if they assume the risk. I mean you can get salmonella and shit from many things, spinach, eggs, etc. Fuck those assholes for drawing their guns, dimwits.

>> ^GeeSussFreeK:

>> ^EMPIRE:
"Diseases that pasteurization can prevent include tuberculosis, brucellosis, diphtheria, scarlet fever and Q-fever; it also kills the harmful bacteria Salmonella, Listeria, Yersinia, Campylobacter, Staphylococcus aureus, and Escherichia coli 157 [11][12] among others."
Need I say more?

Cars can kill you, same with illegal drugs, so yes, you do.

While the raid was heavy-handed, I completely agree with the prosecution of people like this.

We have organizations like the FDA and Canadian Food Inspection Agency for a reason - to minimize the public health risks associated with the food supply including the transmission of animal diseases to humans.

These people may feel they have the right to eat contaminated food but, just like the anti-vaccine crowd, they don't think about the possible transmission of disease to others.

There are perfectly legal ways to grow/produce, acquire and eat whatever food you want, there's no reason to flaunt laws that are there for a reason.

I've had Salmonella. Its not really very nice. I like my food bombared with ionising radiation thanks.

I expect those laws exist for good reason. If these nitwits want to risk their health for "raw" food, and as long as the risks are clearly advertised then I don't really know why they shouldn't let them.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag.(show it anyway)

Yes, but this wasn't being sold at your local supermarket. This was a club of people voluntarily choosing an alternative lifestyle that they (rightfully IMO) believe provides health benefits. You are more likely to get salmonella at your local Olive Garden. This is really about corporate hedgemony, I mean WTF - guns drawn? That isn't good for anyone's health. >> ^Skeeve:

While the raid was heavy-handed, I completely agree with the prosecution of people like this.
We have organizations like the FDA and Canadian Food Inspection Agency for a reason - to minimize the public health risks associated with the food supply including the transmission of animal diseases to humans.
These people may feel they have the right to eat contaminated food but, just like the anti-vaccine crowd, they don't think about the possible transmission of disease to others.
There are perfectly legal ways to grow/produce, acquire and eat whatever food you want, there's no reason to flaunt laws that are there for a reason.

Do SOME of you not understand that they draw their guns for a reason ? its called training and its protocol. Just because a swat team may be involved with bringing down Popeye's spinach vegan factory doesnt mean they will walk in there with Guns on their backs and friendly waves of "hello " hands and the warrant in hand. Wake up, they have protocol to follow.

As well I am pretty sure what skeeve said was that its for others protection not just the people who want to drink milk, sure they get sick ( fuck'em in my opinion, its their choice) but it is communicable to others, the general population, WHICH government does give a shit about ( or so I heard once)

I realize that the average person isn't going to buy their food at this place, but what about the thousands who will come into contact with a person who does?

These people are effectively choosing to become carriers of disease. Not all of them will get sick, and not all of those who do will pass it on, but it is inevitable that eventually one of the "club" members will pass on a staph infection or tuberculosis or worse.

As for it being about corporate hegemony, bullshit; no one is shutting down farmers markets, coop farms, etc. This is about people knowingly flaunting federal laws and getting slapped for it.
>> ^dag:

Yes, but this wasn't being sold at your local supermarket. This was a club of people voluntarily choosing an alternative lifestyle that they (rightfully IMO) believe provides health benefits. You are more likely to get salmonella at your local Olive Garden. This is really about corporate hedgemony, I mean WTF - guns drawn? That isn't good for anyone's health. >> ^Skeeve:
While the raid was heavy-handed, I completely agree with the prosecution of people like this.
We have organizations like the FDA and Canadian Food Inspection Agency for a reason - to minimize the public health risks associated with the food supply including the transmission of animal diseases to humans.
These people may feel they have the right to eat contaminated food but, just like the anti-vaccine crowd, they don't think about the possible transmission of disease to others.
There are perfectly legal ways to grow/produce, acquire and eat whatever food you want, there's no reason to flaunt laws that are there for a reason.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag.(show it anyway)

To say that these people are placing the public at risk for drinking raw cow's milk is ludicrous hyperbole and the kind of scare-mongering bullshit that would do the Department of Homeland Security proud.

Perhaps we should go to Level Orange in response to these Lacto-terrorists. Think of the children! Duct tape your windows to prevent raw milk from seeping in!

>> ^Skeeve:

I realize that the average person isn't going to buy their food at this place, but what about the thousands who will come into contact with a person who does?
These people are effectively choosing to become carriers of disease. Not all of them will get sick, and not all of those who do will pass it on, but it is inevitable that eventually one of the "club" members will pass on a staph infection or tuberculosis or worse.
As for it being about corporate hegemony, bullshit; no one is shutting down farmers markets, coop farms, etc. This is about people knowingly flaunting federal laws and getting slapped for it.
>> ^dag:
Yes, but this wasn't being sold at your local supermarket. This was a club of people voluntarily choosing an alternative lifestyle that they (rightfully IMO) believe provides health benefits. You are more likely to get salmonella at your local Olive Garden. This is really about corporate hedgemony, I mean WTF - guns drawn? That isn't good for anyone's health. >> ^Skeeve:
While the raid was heavy-handed, I completely agree with the prosecution of people like this.
We have organizations like the FDA and Canadian Food Inspection Agency for a reason - to minimize the public health risks associated with the food supply including the transmission of animal diseases to humans.
These people may feel they have the right to eat contaminated food but, just like the anti-vaccine crowd, they don't think about the possible transmission of disease to others.
There are perfectly legal ways to grow/produce, acquire and eat whatever food you want, there's no reason to flaunt laws that are there for a reason.

Just to add a few points to the discussion.
1. The "guns-drawn" video was from the first raid - the one that didn't result in any arrests.
2. This group could have obtained licenses/permits to legally sell raw milk, but they chose not to. They also chose not to obtain a business license.
3. They are being charged with selling raw milk to undercover agents, who were not members per se, but who had purchased one-time day passes.

I completely disagree. These charges are in no way violence related. You can EASILY serve an arrest warrant without drawing a gun. Put your hand on it if it makes you happy. Now, were they serving a warrant for murder, then sure, blaze in there with guns drawn.
>> ^BoneRemake:

Do SOME of you not understand that they draw their guns for a reason ? its called training and its protocol. Just because a swat team may be involved with bringing down Popeye's spinach vegan factory doesnt mean they will walk in there with Guns on their backs and friendly waves of "hello " hands and the warrant in hand. Wake up, they have protocol to follow.
As well I am pretty sure what skeeve said was that its for others protection not just the people who want to drink milk, sure they get sick ( fuck'em in my opinion, its their choice) but it is communicable to others, the general population, WHICH government does give a shit about ( or so I heard once)

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag.(show it anyway)

Fair enough - those are all good points - unless it's particularly onerous to get a license for this. Are they a business? They describe it as a club, but the selling to the undercover officer definitely undermines that claim.>> ^blackoreb:

Just to add a few points to the discussion.
1. The "guns-drawn" video was from the first raid - the one that didn't result in any arrests.
2. This group could have obtained licenses/permits to legally sell raw milk, but they chose not to. They also chose not to obtain a business license.
3. They are being charged with selling raw milk to undercover agents, who were not members per se, but who had purchased one-time day passes.

1. We have these things called laws. Unless the laws are bad (which can happen) and are changed (which is possible) people are expected to abide by them. These people broke the law, therefore it is the government's responsibility to charge them or change the law.

2. Prior to 1900 a significant portion of the 10% of New York children who died before their 5th birthday died because of contaminated milk. After pasteurization the infant mortality rate dropped by two thirds. So yes, think of the children.

3. Thousands died of a typhoid outbreak in 1913 that was spread partially through the drinking of unpasteurized milk. It's not being hyperbolic to say it could happen again.

It sounds like your mind is made up on this issue, so this is my last post on the subject. I agree that the original bust was stupid and heavy handed, but I also agree with the prosecution of these people.

>> ^dag:

To say that these people are placing the public at risk for drinking raw cow's milk is ludicrous hyperbole and the kind of scare-mongering bullshit that would do the Department of Homeland Security proud.
Perhaps we should go to Level Orange in response to these Lacto-terrorists. Think of the children! Duct tape your windows to prevent raw milk from seeping in!
>> ^Skeeve:
I realize that the average person isn't going to buy their food at this place, but what about the thousands who will come into contact with a person who does?
These people are effectively choosing to become carriers of disease. Not all of them will get sick, and not all of those who do will pass it on, but it is inevitable that eventually one of the "club" members will pass on a staph infection or tuberculosis or worse.
As for it being about corporate hegemony, bullshit; no one is shutting down farmers markets, coop farms, etc. This is about people knowingly flaunting federal laws and getting slapped for it.
>> ^dag:
Yes, but this wasn't being sold at your local supermarket. This was a club of people voluntarily choosing an alternative lifestyle that they (rightfully IMO) believe provides health benefits. You are more likely to get salmonella at your local Olive Garden. This is really about corporate hedgemony, I mean WTF - guns drawn? That isn't good for anyone's health. >> ^Skeeve:
While the raid was heavy-handed, I completely agree with the prosecution of people like this.
We have organizations like the FDA and Canadian Food Inspection Agency for a reason - to minimize the public health risks associated with the food supply including the transmission of animal diseases to humans.
These people may feel they have the right to eat contaminated food but, just like the anti-vaccine crowd, they don't think about the possible transmission of disease to others.
There are perfectly legal ways to grow/produce, acquire and eat whatever food you want, there's no reason to flaunt laws that are there for a reason.

Alaska is going through a bunch of campylobacter cases right now related to a single seller of raw milk.

http://searchalaska.adn.com/sp?aff=1100&keywords=campylobacter&submit=find+%BB

Too bad they cant do the raw thing but follow stringent handling laws.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag.(show it anyway)

Let's agree to disagree then - and you might want to have a look at this document that gives a better rebuttal to some of your arguments than I could.

>> ^Skeeve:

1. We have these things called laws. Unless the laws are bad (which can happen) and are changed (which is possible) people are expected to abide by them. These people broke the law, therefore it is the government's responsibility to charge them or change the law.
2. Prior to 1900 a significant portion of the 10% of New York children who died before their 5th birthday died because of contaminated milk. After pasteurization the infant mortality rate dropped by two thirds. So yes, think of the children.
3. Thousands died of a typhoid outbreak in 1913 that was spread partially through the drinking of unpasteurized milk. It's not being hyperbolic to say it could happen again.
It sounds like your mind is made up on this issue, so this is my last post on the subject. I agree that the original bust was stupid and heavy handed, but I also agree with the prosecution of these people.
>> ^dag:
To say that these people are placing the public at risk for drinking raw cow's milk is ludicrous hyperbole and the kind of scare-mongering bullshit that would do the Department of Homeland Security proud.
Perhaps we should go to Level Orange in response to these Lacto-terrorists. Think of the children! Duct tape your windows to prevent raw milk from seeping in!
>> ^Skeeve:
I realize that the average person isn't going to buy their food at this place, but what about the thousands who will come into contact with a person who does?
These people are effectively choosing to become carriers of disease. Not all of them will get sick, and not all of those who do will pass it on, but it is inevitable that eventually one of the "club" members will pass on a staph infection or tuberculosis or worse.
As for it being about corporate hegemony, bullshit; no one is shutting down farmers markets, coop farms, etc. This is about people knowingly flaunting federal laws and getting slapped for it.
>> ^dag:
Yes, but this wasn't being sold at your local supermarket. This was a club of people voluntarily choosing an alternative lifestyle that they (rightfully IMO) believe provides health benefits. You are more likely to get salmonella at your local Olive Garden. This is really about corporate hedgemony, I mean WTF - guns drawn? That isn't good for anyone's health. >> ^Skeeve:
While the raid was heavy-handed, I completely agree with the prosecution of people like this.
We have organizations like the FDA and Canadian Food Inspection Agency for a reason - to minimize the public health risks associated with the food supply including the transmission of animal diseases to humans.
These people may feel they have the right to eat contaminated food but, just like the anti-vaccine crowd, they don't think about the possible transmission of disease to others.
There are perfectly legal ways to grow/produce, acquire and eat whatever food you want, there's no reason to flaunt laws that are there for a reason.

From what I understand raw milk actually isn't that bad for you. Like I said, I may as well drink your mom's breast milk if I drank raw milk but that is just how I feel. I mean I think milk is weird in general. I just drank some Rice milk today and was thinking "huh, what a funny thing, how DO they DO it." I mean for the arguing to go on I want to see scientific proof that raw milk might potentially have health benefits or risks. Otherwise, we're just shooting in the dark.

This whole event (did I post this already, I could have sworn I already posted this post), wreaks of being politically motivated to me. "Let's go git dem pure food lovin, socialist utopia living, deadbeat, hippies that make hugenormous bonuses at the end of the year, way more den I's do and all dems is doin is sellin dem greens!! Let's scare the SHIT outta dem boys - dat ill teach erm!{there are people in LA who talk like this, I swear)" Pigs. Gotta love em.

So, they need a license to distribute... why to prove they know how to distribute? Looks like they know how to distribute just fine to me.

Screw the laws, I've gone to my coop and bought all sorts of herbal pills that were unregulated by FDA - never had a problem. But, like I was saying, milk is weird but I want proof that raw milk actually poses any sort of danger to an adult.

>> ^Jinx:

I've had Salmonella. Its not really very nice. I like my food bombared with ionising radiation thanks.
I expect those laws exist for good reason. If these nitwits want to risk their health for "raw" food, and as long as the risks are clearly advertised then I don't really know why they shouldn't let them.


The debate is a bit more complex than just 'which has the most germs in it'. A great deal of the regular milk sold in stores is not simply milk, it usually has additives and other ingredients in it such as permeate. It is able to be sold as milk because that's how the labeling laws work in many parts of the world. Also, people may want to buy raw milk because they know the supplier is local, and they want to support local, more sustainable, business. Buying regular milk from a store means your likely supporting a large company that has little care for the environment or the cows.

In essence, people want to have a choice as to what they put in their body, it's about autonomy, and not always just about nutrition. I agree that the risks are higher, however I personally don't believe that these raids are about that at all.

Also, while there seems to be epidemiological evidence that raw milk has a higher chance of causing sickness than pasteurized milk, from what I've read most of these outbreaks occur when people are trying raw milk for the first time, or if they are eating products made with raw milk that haven't been handled properly. People that are raised on a farm drinking raw milk don't tend to get sick from it, due to the fact they build up resistance to any bacteria that may be present in the milk.

redacted

Ya know the government and law enforcement agencies are always telling us they're thwarting terrorists and protecting us from villains often with no demonstrable evidence. And they have time to harass farmers and pot growers and anyone that looks at them wrong. I'm told constantly we need more cops...how about take the moron FBI agents that are investigating stupid things that don't hurt anyone and put them on the street with a badge and have them patrol. Maybe then they'd be doing a public SERVICE...which is what they're supposed to be doing Serving US!