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GOP to UAW: "Drop Dead" - Thom Hartmann on Countdown

Hanns says...

@NetRunner:

Woah there. It's apparent by this post and others on this topic that this is a subject that hits close to home. My reply here was without emotion, and merely an observation based on evidence presented and personal experience.

So let's see:

"Go educate yourself about the current state of the unions, and how competitive they are with non-union autoworkers. You'd clearly be shocked."

If you are referring to the $70/hr versus $40/hr versus $28/hr debacle, frankly, it doesn't really matter. If the average currently productive worker (read: not a retiree or whatever) is earning any more money than the labor market would normally support at a non unionized plant, then they are at a competitive disadvantage. That is bad for everyone.

Besides, if unions are so competitive, why do they need them in the first place? You say I need an education? Help me out then.

"The only thing really dragging down the big three as far as labor costs are past obligations that are not subject to renegotiation for reasonably obvious reasons -- are you going to tell already retired workers that they need to lose their pensions and medical benefits, because times have changed?"

I agree with this. I even noted this in my original comment: "Obviously that's not the only problem going on that got the auto manufacturers..." Of course there are other major problems. My point was, a competitive disadvantage due to high (currently productive) labor costs relative to the competition is a contributing factor.

"But hey, clearly you've got an axe to grind about organized labor. Don't let facts get in the way of a good scapegoating."

An axe to grind? Hmm. No, I just happen to believe that if I am able and willing to do work for myself, I shouldn't be forced to pay someone else to do it. Unions also make rapid adjustment to market conditions difficult via stonewalling things like salary changes even when they are necessary.

"If you think they shouldn't deserve to exist anymore, aim your criticism with the people who ran the company, and made the decisions that led them to where they are, not the labor unions who did exactly what they were supposed to do."

Which leads to my next point: the fostering of the "them versus us" mentality. That is, management versus labor. There was a really interesting special on the airline industry a while back where this was discussed. You have mechanic unions, pilot unions, flight attendant unions, and the big, bad management who are trying to keep the company afloat. These attitudes don't help anyone out. Organized labor forgets one very important thing: management needs to be able to do their job too, and what's bad for the company is bad for everyone within the company - though the reverse is obviously not always true.

Now, does management bear responsibility for the state of the company? For sure. I never disputed that. Has management been able to do everything they felt they needed to without being blocked by a union under threat of a strike? That's a question worth investigating.

"As for the political motivations of the Republican party, there's hard evidence to support the proposition that this "blame the unions" thing is motivated primarily by politics."

Yup, I saw that (even commented on that video). Personally I was more interested in the text of the note rather than some media's interpretation of it. The first paragraph essentially accuses the Democrats of doing this as a way of paying off the union for their support in the election. The second paragraph I think needs to be repeated:

"This rush to judgment is the same thing that happened with the TARP. Members did not have an opportunity to read or digest the legislation and therefore could not understand the consequences of it. We should not rush to pass this because Detroit says the sky is falling."

I can't help but wholeheartedly agree there. Making snap decisions about spending billions of dollars in taxpayer money without having time to understand the ramifications is bad. That is just the common sense view. Fortunately for me, there are also several people who predicted the current economic climate and are far more educated in economics than I am that would also agree. I believe one of the more prominent ones has been floating around on the Sift lately.

In fact, I think the view that bailouts in general are bad has some merit. The money must come from somewhere, and it's not like the government has hundreds of billions of dollars sitting around waiting to bail out failing companies. So, it's either coming from cuts in existing programs, borrowing, or printing more money. If I had to take a wild, uneducated guess as to where it's coming from, I'd say the latter two are the likely suspects, and those aren't good for anyone right now, union or no union.

GOP to UAW: "Drop Dead" - Thom Hartmann on Countdown

Hanns says...

In the days before America had tight labor laws, unions had a real purpose. These days? In almost every instance they seem to do more harm than good.

"But," you say, "They get better wages and benefits for working Americans! What's so bad about that!?"

Well, by artificially keeping wages high, you end up in one of two situations:
a) The company struggles to be competitive against its non unionized counterparts as its expenses are higher. This hurts the organization, and when the organization is in trouble, everyone is in trouble. Auto factory workers are finding this out the hard way right now. Obviously that's not the only problem going on that got the auto manufacturers into their present mess, but if the union is willing to flush the company down the toilet rather than make concessions, I have a hard time being sympathetic.

b) The company realizes that labor in this country is crazy, and they decide to hire a Chinese plant to manufacturer their goods and import them. That's not a win for the workers, as they are all now jobless.

Let's not even get into labor unions that control turf and won't let people who are able to do work for themselves do it without paying the union. Don't believe me? Try setting up your own booth at a trade show and watch how fast the union guys come out of the woodwork to charge you an outrageous hourly fee for something you are able to do on your own.

The guy in this video looked at it from the angle of "unions = Democrats, kill unions!" I cannot profess to know the thought process behind the Republican decision to block the bailout, but I suspect the true fiscal conservative types dislike unions for the reasons I just outlined. Besides, if you have a group of Democrats, and you hurt them by letting their company go out of business, that's not going to bring them over to your side. They will still be voting Democrat next time, so that argument seems a little contrived to me.

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Hanns says...

At least they did the right thing and got an ambulance for him. I bet there are plenty of other cops who would just get pissed off at his disobedience and place him under arrest without any regard to the possibility that this could be a medical condition.

Wheel of Fortune: English as a Second Language Edition

Hanns says...

>> ^poolcleaner:
I would have giddily made an obscure nerd reference:
"The pristinely ungifted can only be indirectly harmed by magic."
Why am I not on these shows? I could have made, maybe, 5 other people in the world happy with that reference.


More than five, I suspect.
Then again, I have to wonder how many people stopped reading after the 'chicken is not a chicken' thing.

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