"Jewish and democratic". "White and democratic" "Christian and democratic" "Muslim and democratic" "Ginger and democratic".

Can't you all see how much of an oxymoron this is and that the word "democratic" is just being used as hyperbole to gain legitimacy for what is a militaristic, racist and expansionist nation in the middle of a region that is entirely foreign to its culture in every way? It's like having a Sharia nation in the middle of Ohio and claiming that it is free and democratic.

For all the horrible things you can say about drone strikes, there has never before been such an efficient method of specifically killing enemy leaders in a war zone. Look at WW2 and Vietnam, and how many innocent civilians were killed for every high level enemy leader. The drone strikes in tribal Pakistan, even by the measure of Pakistan's own critics of them, manage better than 50% of their victims as bonafide militants. This includes a long list of high level Taliban and Al Qaeda leaders. Loss of civilian life is always tragic, but to kill 1 thousand militants and a thousand bystanders each year, while those same militants kill 10s of thousands of civilians on purpose is on the whole a good trade. Truth be told, if the Pak army was at the helm of the drones, the praises of the program would be unending. It's a combined pride and distrust of America thing.

I also think guys over here complaining need to better appreciate the ground situation over in places like tribal Pakistan. Tribal Pakistan is exactly that, a series of tribal communities. Outsiders are either welcomed in as guest and friend, or ushered out as mortal enemy, with a number of social and ethical codes dictating which will apply. If you are living in a community, that whole community has embraced you as one of your own and on a large scale sharing common cause and values. Any tribal community that's accepted high level Taliban militants into their community is guaranteed to share an extreme form of Sharia law. The community will not tolerate the education of their young girls. Blasphemy and apostasy will be immediate death sentences, without trial. Rape victims will be stoned and/or killed for adultery, as is only right. Our high standards of morality over here absolutely demand we still declare those people civilians, and mark their deaths as such, but the notion of them being potential allies turned enemies because of drone strikes is absurd.

So, it seems to make your point of Christian tollerance you show me a site all about Christianity including a part where non-Christian speak is absolutely not allowed. Hmmmm.? You don't see the issue there?
You are allowed to say whatever you like, and others are allowed to speak their mind about what you said. Where's the persecution? Being ignored is not persecution, neither is being disagreed with, and so far as I know no one banned you.
My experience was far different, growing up in the deep south as a non-Christian is a truly hard row to hoe, and a dangerous one. I also disagree that our entertainment or education system is secular, it may have pockets of secularism, but not an entirety by far. Consider how you would feel if your money had "there is no god" printed on it, it's an example of how our society caters to religion across the board.
As far as religious freedom's being curtailed, that's a good thing, religion has enjoyed a freedom from responsibility for it's actions for far too long, and needs to be curtailed before we live in the Christian equivelant of sharia law, like many Christians support and vote for.
I would continue this discussion, but you do not seem to be following the logic or even the truthful statements I am presenting. As I wrote previously, I do not expect to change your mind, I simply hope to offer a different point of view for the other readers of this exchange.
Not ignoring, but done replying.

@RedSky I would add that the Jewish laws of Leviticus, Deuteronomy etc. are the foundations for Sharia law, but that most Christians throughout history see Jesus as having repudiated Jewish law (this is of course a question of interpretation), causing it to have "lived on" almost exclusively in its Islamic form. I still hold that as far as fundamentals go, the Quran and life of Mohammed are somewhat more easily used as unequivocal justification for violence than the New Testament and Jesus. (I would reference gorillaman's comment, but... see below)

I'm glad you brought Indonesia into the picture, as it is a good example of my argument. It may be the most populated muslim country, but it has repeatedly refused to let its central gvt be encroached upon by Islam, i.e. to become an Islamic state or espouse Sharia (despite the pressure from noisy fundamentalists).
In the one part of the country where Sharia is allowed to be enforced, Aceh, you get the same amount of unethical conduct and discrimination/violence towards women, homosexuals, non-jilbab-wearers, "adulterers" etc as you'd expect in the meanest of the Islamic states. And where do they find those discriminatory laws and the "divine" authority to enforce them? The Quran of course.

@gorillaman You make a few salient points (about the life/example of M. and the fact that, unlike The Bible, the Quran is the work of one author, alive at the time of the religion's birth) but you lose all credibility by
a) using a homophobic slur as a pejorative in your first line and
b) making gross (and false) generalisations, notably the all-caps
"THIS IS WHAT ALL MUSLIMS BELIEVE" which is so easily demonstrably false (simply ask the nearest muslim). If it had read "this is what fundamentalist muslims believe" or even "this is what all muslims should believe if they want to honestly hold that the Quran is the perfect word of God" then you would be a bit closer to reality.
Finally, the hyperbole of your last paragraph does not help your credibility either. I am as antitheist as one can be, and the gross demonisation of religious believers (aka fellow human beings) as criminals and inhumane, ethic-less zombies not only made me shake my head sadly, it also reminded me of how religious extremists depict atheists.

@Babymech You do know that most of the Islamist terrorist attacks were perpetrated by middle-to-upper-class, well-to-do educated men, not poor and desperate Jean Valjeans, right?
The reason I pointed to your first comment as one of the "ignorant extremes" of attitude towards Islam and violence is that, the way I read it, it illustrated the common rebuttal that often comes from the far-left when a terrorist/mass-murderer is found out to be a Muslim extremist: "it must be other political/socio-economical factors, it can't be plain old religious fanaticism" or "it's our fault for waging war on them". While I agree that the US should never have gone a-warring in the ME, it's often a false equivalence and ignorant simplification to exclude or minimise the religious factor. In hindsight it was maybe rash of me to read that much into your comment, but I hope I have made clear what I meant.

As for Maher's stance that Islam is (in this point in history, as he stresses) worse than Christianity: for my opinion see above, and feel free to refute my "argumentum ad comparatio" to support your disagreement.

Ask and you shall receive!

You said: "They have no intention of integrating into the society or the laws/practices of the host country."

That right there, sir, is what we call an opinion--by definition not a fact. You have condemned the entire Muslim population of Britain as not wanting to integrate based on the fact that Sharia courts exist. And that, good sir, is what we call "irrational." As in, it doesn't at all reasonably follow from the previously stated fact. Perhaps indeed the entire Muslim community doesn't intend to integrate into British society (doubtful), but the fact you cited doesn't support that claim in any way.

Next, you state: "A birth rate outstripping that of the indigenous populace of countries they have "settled" by so much, that it is estimated the whole of Europe will be muslim in 50-75 years."

Sorry, good sir, that's not a fact--it's a thoroughly well-debunked lie. See: http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2011/01/27/will-pew-muslim-birth-rate-study-finally-silence-the-eurabia-claim/

You go on to say: "As for "moderate" muslims; when was the last time they marched en-masse to denounce the barbaric practices carried out in their name?"

Muslims regularly protest the atrocities that are carried out in Islam's name--it just doesn't ever make the evening news (after all, they're supposed to be the bad guys!). This website will give you more than ample examples of Muslims protesting the atrocities committed in the name of Islam.

http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php

So, is Islam to be feared? Perhaps. Not for any of the reasons you stated, though. And I hope you don't feel like I'm picking on you--again, I agree with the video that you're entitled to your opinion. I would just hope you base your opinion on fact and reason and not hearsay and emotion.

48 - and counting - sharia courts in the UK, and muslims recently given the right to conduct their own divorces. They have no intention of integrating into the society or the laws/practices of the host country. A birth rate outstripping that of the indigenous populace of countries they have "settled" by so much, that it is estimated the whole of Europe will be muslim in 50-75 years (Gaddafi himself said; "All we have to do is wait"). Islam is not simply a religion, it is a theocracy, and its followers are intent on inflicting its medieval practices on the world. As for "moderate" muslims; when was the last time they marched en-masse to denounce the barbaric practices carried out in their name? Is islam something to fear? Damn right it is.Christopher Hitchens said, many times, that if we don't wake up soon, it will be too late.

>> ^KnivesOut:

Well you know he's a secret gay muslim terrorist who is going to start governing the US under Sharia Law. I mean, he only had to fake 4 years as a "normal" president so he could get his second term, so that now he can REALLY fuck up this country by inviting his Al Qaeda mole operatives to attack the waffle house down the street.
Muslim.
9/11.

Really? Damn, that Obama is one cunning motherfucker. Good thing those Pakistanis are onto him.

Well you know he's a secret gay muslim terrorist who is going to start governing the US under Sharia Law. I mean, he only had to fake 4 years as a "normal" president so he could get his second term, so that now he can REALLY fuck up this country by inviting his Al Qaeda mole operatives to attack the waffle house down the street.

Muslim.

9/11.>> ^ChaosEngine:

>> ^Hybrid:
As a non-American, I and the rest of the world, want Obama to win. I simply do not understand how it is such a close call in America itself, yet the rest of the world clearly sees that Obama is the only logical vote...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-20008687

Amen, brother. Romney should put that in his campaign.
"Romney! Slightly more people in Pakistan reckon he'd be a better president than Obama"
@shinyblurry, you said that "Obama is going to radically transform this country even further (for the worst)". Exactly what "radical" transformations has the US undergone? From the outside, it looks pretty much as it always did (with marginally more humane healthcare).

Ok, I'm sure to be attacked, but here's my take on it. We are ALL under surveillance in some shape or form? The police could not operate without public information. We are all encouraged to be vigilant and report our suspicions. The incitement part of this report is the only thing the police did wrong. Our enemies hide behind the very constitution they wish to destroy. Are Christians, Jews,or any other religion, carrying out beheadings, car bombings, or murdering authors and cartoonists, simply for "offending" their religion? Is there any other religion that has called for Jihad, Sharia, and death to "infidels?" I think it is extremely naive, and dangerous, to say; "we have to wait until they do something before acting." A group of Muslims are on trial in England. The carnage they planned was stopped before it happened. How do you suppose the intelligence service knew about it? Big Brother IS watching and, for my part, if they use surveillance, bugging, computer hacking etc, to prevent the atrocities we have all sadly witnessed, then I'm afraid, it is a necessary evil. Oh, and btw, was it constitutional to lock up Japanese Americans during WW2? Weren't they, also, innocent until proven guilty? of course they were, but who then would have taken the chance?

Does this idiot not realise that the "divine" law of the Old Testament/Pentateuch is the basis of Sharia Law, and that Islam is but a spin-off of Christianity/Judaism (the same way the former is of the latter)?

(edit: rhetorical question of course; a Repubublican and/or fundamentalist Christian actually knowing something about religious history? ha!)

You'll find no argument from me about whether our government has been rattling the hornets nest over there for some time. However, I don't place the blame for Muslim outrage on America, or the KGB, I place the blame on Islam. The reason they are so stirred up is because their religion teaches them to hate Jews, Christians, and anyone else who isn't a Muslim. In their eyes we are all the devil and need to be destroyed, or subjugated.

What's going on in the middle east right now, specifically in Iran, cannot be understood unless it is seen through the lens of their particular eschatology (beliefs about the end times). What the Iranians believe is that the coming of their Messiah, called the Mahdi, or the 12th Imam, is imminent. They believe what ushers in the Mahdis return is a series of great wars at the end of time. They also believe that Iran will be the spark to that flame. This is what Irans top general said recently:

"With having the treasure of the Holy Defense, Valayat (Guardianship of the Jurist) and martyrs, we are ready for a big war Of course this confrontation has always continued; however, since we are in the era of The Coming, this war will be a significant war

The Islamic republic is going to create a new environment on the world stage, and without a doubt victory awaits those who continue the path of martyrs. … we can defeat the enemy at its home and our nation is ready for jihad. Martyrdom has taught us to avoid wrong paths and return to the right path. Martyrdom is the right path, it’s the path to God"

http://glblgeopolitics.wordpress.com/2012/09/21/iran-official-big-war-means-mahdis-coming/

So what you have here, essentially, is a doomsday cult looking to acquire a nuclear weapon so that they can start a global war to usher in the coming of their Messiah. They believe that their Messiah will subjugate every nation under Islam and bring about worldwide sharia law.

So, everyone who thinks that the middle east is a problem we can straighten out with diplomacy, or instituting democratic reforms, is extremely foolish. It's the same with these sanctions; Iran is not going to break or change their mind. Their top general stated it in very clear terms; that they believe martyrdom is the only true path to God. It is reported that their leader, Ayatollah Khamenei, ascends to the sky (in the spirit) once a year to meet with the Mahdi, and that the Mahdi ordered him to continue the nuclear program because it would be what facilitates his coming.

http://www.wnd.com/2012/01/iran-preparing-now-for-armageddon/

If you look at Ahmadinejad's speech to the UN last week, it was all about the soon coming of the Mahdi:

http://flashtrafficblog.wordpress.com/2012/09/26/exclusive-ahmadinejad-gives-most-detailed-explanation-of-twelfth-imam-to-date-says-mahdi-will-soon-re
ign-over-whole-world/

This is why our policies in the Mideast fail again and again. Everything we try to do there ends up creating the exact opposite effect. Even when they themselves overthrow repressive governments, they end up electing even more repressive governments. It's not a problem we can solve. This is the way things are headed, and there is absolutely nothing we can do about it. Their Messiah is most likely our Antichrist and regardless of how it all comes about, the end result was predicted over 2000 years ago;

There will be a one world government, one world economy and one world religion, with the Antichrist at the head. There will be some kind of global calamity in the near future, such as an economic crisis, or perhaps a war, involving Israel, and that is when the Antichrist will enter the world stage. He will come preaching peace and safety, and will head off the calamity by establishing a 7 year peace treaty between Israel and the rest of the world. At around the 3.5 year mark the Antichrist will take off his mask and declare himself to be God, and cause the entire world to worship him. Anyone who doesn't know Jesus Christ at this time will follow the antichrist. Anyone who takes the mark of the beast will be eternally condemned. If you're curious about what the mark of the beast is, it will probably be something like this:



The purpose of the mark is to control who can buy and sell. Anyone without the mark will be unable to participate in the economic system.

Don't count on believing later, or that you won't be deceived into taking the mark, because it will be under threat of death. Today is the day of salvation, so do not harden your heart because He is calling to you. The fact is that He loves you and is knocking on your door:

Revelation 3:20

Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.

>> ^Stormsinger:

The problem with that claim is that the animosity goes back well before Pacepa's time. We overthrew the elected government of Iran in 1953, because they were threatening oil company profits. By 1967, the KGB was doing very little except throwing gasoline on a fire we'd already started and built up to four alarm status. It's not reasonable to try and put the blame on the KGB...it clearly belongs on our own government agencies, which have proven over and over again to be extremely shortsighted and unwilling to accept any ethical boundaries.

Science is a democratic constitution, changing and being changed as new realities present themselves.

Religion is Sharia Law, unchanging and brutal.

>> ^drattus:

We're the most imprisoned nation in the world, both per capita and in raw terms and that's been a fact since the Clinton administration. If the more than a decade long title holder for most imprisoned nation in the world isn't a police state, then exactly what is it?
International Centre for Prison Studies
http://www.prisonstudies.org/info/worldbrief/wpb_stats.php


I agree that the US has a stupidly high imprisonment rate, mostly due to your insane and useless "war on drugs", but at least there is a process. The laws behind it may be retarded, but as a general rule, you aren't living in fear of being snatched off the street by uniformed goons. Hyperbole doesn't really help anyone, and frankly, calling the US a police state is trivialising the struggles of those who live in real oppression (i.e. North Korea, sharia law, etc).

That's not to say you shouldn't complain about injustice in your country, simply that you should call it what it is.

My standard is absolute as well. Any deity that would command it's people to do evil things in the name of order (as opposed to 'good') is evil...

God's old testament law is not about being good, it's about following the rules. Even if the rules are inherently evil (ownership and (mis)treatment of slaves for example).

Your charactisation of your god is as a slave master who demands absolute obedience, not as a loving father protecting his flock... Further, god changes his mind on the punishment and decides suddenly that the one must sacrifice for the all... Sin didn't disappear, but all the drastic measures you claim are needed to combat it sure did. Mebbe he finally woke up to the fact that commanding people to commit atrocities is.. ya know, WRONG... Gee, convenient for those born AD right? X D

How about you SB? If your god commanded it would you stone your child to death for talking back?

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/children.html

Yeah, your god is loving and kind... Like Idi Amin or Pol Pot was... If any human did what god ordered back then, we would condemn them.. Sharia law and all that right? Pro tip, if us flawed humans can see that something is morally wrong, how can the almighty not?

>> ^shinyblurry:

The proof that you're not is that you give no regard to the sin itself. You are using a relative standard to judge his crime, whereas God uses an absolute standard. There is no such thing as a minor sin in Gods eyes. God is holy and His standard is moral perfection. Moral perfection is what God calls good, and everything short of that is evil. He has also ordained the death penalty for all sin.
Neither was the crime itself picking up sticks. The actual crime was rebellion. It is not a minor thing to break Gods law, which the man knew full well he was doing. God punished Him not only for rebellion, but also as a public example to the rest of Israel that His laws were to be taken seriously. You have to remember that the Jews were His chosen people, and that they had entered into a covenant with God willingly. They agreed to follow His laws and adhere to His standards, and His standard was that they would be holy as He is holy. This meant that they would obey His law unceasingly with no exceptions. They also agreed with God that if they did not obey His law, they would incur the penalties He laid out.
I will agree that stoning is a particularly harsh punishment, but while you don't think the punishment fits the crime, that is because you don't understand how bad sin really is. Consider for a moment that what I said earlier is true, that one sin led to all of the madness that we see in the world today. If you can comprehend that, maybe you'll start to get the idea why God would use such a punishment as a deterrent.
You say there is no way a loving God would ever do that, to which I reply, that a loving God would do everything possible, including invoking extremely harsh punishments, to prevent as much sin as possible and protect His creation from the greatest amount of harm. To not take extreme measures against sin would actually be a point against Him, and not for Him.

no offense taken. true, pat condell has some weird views I completely disagree with but ... the message of this video cannot be ignored: religion fucks up everything if people let it and sharia law is fucking retarded