>> ^berticus:

the psychology of the military fascinates me
"it's a game you have to play"
"too busy trying not to piss yourself"
"stripped of your dignity"
so bizarre


boot camp is all about psychology.
think about it.
it is NOT a natural state of being to shoot another human in the face,therefore it is imperative to strip that human of all self-identifiers in order to build them back up and incorporate them into the group paradigm.

one of the most powerful tools they use as @Skeeve mentioned is how they punish the entire company for an infraction YOU incurred.thats a mighty powerful motivator when you have 80 dudes staring at you with rage in their eyes.(i was lucky to never have experienced that particular discomfort).

you do realize after a short while that it is all a game (or mindfuck) but whats even MORE interesting is that even though you are aware of the manipulation you still fall in line with the group.

i was 17 when i joined (you could do that back then).speaking only for myself i remember that i adopted a "you cant beat me,i am not going to quit" mentality.which is EXACTLY the mentality they wanted.they took my defiance and made it work for them.
i was manipulated from the get-go and even when i became aware of that fact i still played their game by their rules.

His debate with Sam Harris is excellent. It's on the sift. Chris Hedges has a very different kind of faith than most. Although he self identifies as a Christian, it feels to me more of an Einsteinian type of religion, interested in the mysteries of science and human existence, and not obsessed with heaven and hell and taking scripture literally. I'm guessing most atheists on the sift would find a lot of common ground with him, so careful with the knee jerk reactions.

Let's not forget all the potential for good in Christianity, even if the loudest Christian voices in the media tend to be cruel, shallow and judgemental. I think the defiance of the early part of this atheist revival helped us establish ourselves, but now we are mainstream (to a degree). It's time for the next step, where we show tolerance to religious people who are kind, loving and empathetic. We hate it when we are all painted with the same stripe, so lets not be hypocrites

The powers that be love to see us divided and beating the crap out of each other. What if we stopped fighting each other and turned that aggression against our corporate wardens.

>> ^SDGundamX:

Hey, thanks for the links... every single one of which refutes your original point that:
"it was an act of defiance, not pacifism..."
I think you're a bit confused about what "pacifism" means. Pacifism is not against defiance; pacifism is against the use of violence to achieve political or personal aims. For example, Rosa Parks refusing to move to the back of the bus was both defiant and pacifist in nature--she used non-violent means to protest the unjust laws of that time. Turning the other cheek--in the historical sense you described--therefore is indeed both an act of defiance and pacifist in nature.
So @ChaosEngine 's original point stands--people who are Christian and support the death penalty would seem to indeed be ignoring Christ's teachings (in addition to the mounds of evidence that show the death penalty is neither cost effective nor a strong deterrent to crime).

It's pacifism-compatible because it's not calling for violence. It's not, however, an instruction to let all transgressions slide as so many people believe.

As for @ChaosEngine's point, I do not disagree with it and was not trying to tear it down. I just think the "turn the other cheek" part doesn't support it very well.

>> ^xxovercastxx:

>> ^Yogi:
>> ^xxovercastxx:
>> ^ChaosEngine:
So Christ was just kidding about "turn the other cheek"?
In those days, you would strike someone of lower social standing with the back of your left hand. If they turned their head to the left, exposing the right cheek, it would force the aggressor to punch them, slap them with the palm, or use the right hand. These are actions that would be used to challenge someone of equal standing. By turning the other cheek, you were forcing them to either treat you as an equal or stop assaulting you.
It was an act of defiance, not pacifism, and does not really support your argument.

Uh huh...and where is this documented? Because it could be utter bullshit.

It seems I got the left/right hand part mixed up, but the point stands...
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0MKY/is_3_29/ai_n11838798/
http://www.voiceofrevolution.com/2009/01/13/what-does-t
urn-the-other-cheek-really-mean/
http://www.zcommunications.org/christian-nonviolence-by-walter-wink
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turning_the_other_cheek


Hey, thanks for the links... every single one of which refutes your original point that:

"it was an act of defiance, not pacifism..."

I think you're a bit confused about what "pacifism" means. Pacifism is not against defiance; pacifism is against the use of violence to achieve political or personal aims. For example, Rosa Parks refusing to move to the back of the bus was both defiant and pacifist in nature--she used non-violent means to protest the unjust laws of that time. Turning the other cheek--in the historical sense you described--therefore is indeed both an act of defiance and pacifist in nature.

So @ChaosEngine 's original point stands--people who are Christian and support the death penalty would seem to indeed be ignoring Christ's teachings (in addition to the mounds of evidence that show the death penalty is neither cost effective nor a strong deterrent to crime).

>> ^xxovercastxx:

>> ^Yogi:
>> ^xxovercastxx:
>> ^ChaosEngine:
So Christ was just kidding about "turn the other cheek"?
In those days, you would strike someone of lower social standing with the back of your left hand. If they turned their head to the left, exposing the right cheek, it would force the aggressor to punch them, slap them with the palm, or use the right hand. These are actions that would be used to challenge someone of equal standing. By turning the other cheek, you were forcing them to either treat you as an equal or stop assaulting you.
It was an act of defiance, not pacifism, and does not really support your argument.

Uh huh...and where is this documented? Because it could be utter bullshit.

It seems I got the left/right hand part mixed up, but the point stands...
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0MKY/is_3_29/ai_n11838798/
http://www.voiceofrevolution.com/2009/01/13/what-does-t
urn-the-other-cheek-really-mean/
http://www.zcommunications.org/christian-nonviolence-by-walter-wink
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turning_the_other_cheek


I went to none of those links...it's too bad you have NO evidence to support what you claimed.

>> ^Yogi:

>> ^xxovercastxx:
>> ^ChaosEngine:
So Christ was just kidding about "turn the other cheek"?
In those days, you would strike someone of lower social standing with the back of your left hand. If they turned their head to the left, exposing the right cheek, it would force the aggressor to punch them, slap them with the palm, or use the right hand. These are actions that would be used to challenge someone of equal standing. By turning the other cheek, you were forcing them to either treat you as an equal or stop assaulting you.
It was an act of defiance, not pacifism, and does not really support your argument.

Uh huh...and where is this documented? Because it could be utter bullshit.


It seems I got the left/right hand part mixed up, but the point stands...

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0MKY/is_3_29/ai_n11838798/
http://www.voiceofrevolution.com/2009/01/13/what-does-turn-the-other-cheek-really-mean/
http://www.zcommunications.org/christian-nonviolence-by-walter-wink
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turning_the_other_cheek

>> ^xxovercastxx:

>> ^ChaosEngine:
So Christ was just kidding about "turn the other cheek"?
In those days, you would strike someone of lower social standing with the back of your left hand. If they turned their head to the left, exposing the right cheek, it would force the aggressor to punch them, slap them with the palm, or use the right hand. These are actions that would be used to challenge someone of equal standing. By turning the other cheek, you were forcing them to either treat you as an equal or stop assaulting you.
It was an act of defiance, not pacifism, and does not really support your argument.


Uh huh...and where is this documented? Because it could be utter bullshit.

>> ^ChaosEngine:

So Christ was just kidding about "turn the other cheek"?

In those days, you would strike someone of lower social standing with the back of your left hand. If they turned their head to the left, exposing the right cheek, it would force the aggressor to punch them, slap them with the palm, or use the right hand. These are actions that would be used to challenge someone of equal standing. By turning the other cheek, you were forcing them to either treat you as an equal or stop assaulting you.

It was an act of defiance, not pacifism, and does not really support your argument.

The point about global warming is that all the available evidence shows that:
1. It is happening
2. It is man-made.

Why is that a problem? well, because we dont know what the consequences could be, we dont know how to stop the rising temperature or if theres a limit or if or when we can reverse the trend.

All of the above could happen, or it might not, some of it may not be due to GW and some of it may be. The fact is that we are messing with earths ecosystem, which is the very reason we are here in the first place. We grew up and evolved as a species on this planet, under these conditions, how will a rapid(geologically rapid 100-200 years) change in climate affect us as a species? how will it affect millions of other species? How will it affect weather? viruses? diseases? deserts? forests?

We don't know

Thats the point. some of the above are possible consequences of global warming*.

*or some denialist pulled it out of their ass and put it on the web so that other denialists could impress us all with their extensive lists.

>> ^quantumushroom:

Enviro-statist alarmists claim that all of the following have been (or will be) caused by global warming.

Agricultural land increase, Africa devastated, African aid threatened, air pressure changes, Alaska reshaped, allergies increase, Alps melting, Amazon a desert, American dream end, amphibians breeding earlier (or not), ancient forests dramatically changed, Antarctic grass flourishes, anxiety, algal blooms, Arctic bogs melt, Asthma, atmospheric defiance, atmospheric circulation modified, avalanches reduced, avalanches increased, bananas destroyed, bananas grow, better beer, big melt faster, billion dollar research projects, billions of deaths, bird distributions change, birds return early, blackbirds stop singing, blizzards, blue mussels return, boredom, Britain Siberian, British gardens change, bubonic plague, budget increases, building season extension, bushfires, business opportunities, business risks, butterflies move north.
Cardiac arrest, caterpillar biomass shift, challenges and opportunities, Cholera, civil unrest, cloud increase, cloud stripping, cod go south, cold climate creatures survive, cold spells (Australia), computer models, conferences, coral bleaching, coral reefs dying, coral reefs grow, coral reefs shrink , cold spells, cost of trillions, crumbling roads, buildings and sewage systems, cyclones (Australia), damages equivalent to $200 billion, Dengue hemorrhagic fever, dermatitis, desert advance, desert life threatened, desert retreat, destruction of the environment, diarrhoea, disappearance of coastal cities, diseases move north, Dolomites collapse, drought, drowning people, ducks and geese decline, dust bowl in the corn belt.
Early spring, earlier pollen season, Earth biodiversity crisis, Earth dying, Earth even hotter, Earth light dimming, Earth lopsided, Earth melting, Earth morbid fever, Earth on fast track, Earth past point of no return, Earth slowing down, Earth spinning out of control, Earth to explode, earth upside down, Earth wobbling, earthquakes, El NiZo intensification, erosion, emerging infections, encephalitis, Europe simultaneously baking and freezing, evolution accelerating, expansion of university climate groups, extinctions (human, civilisation, logic, Inuit, smallest butterfly, cod, ladybirds, bats, pandas, pikas, polar bears, pigmy possums, gorillas, koalas, walrus, whales, frogs, toads, turtles, orang-utan, elephants, tigers, plants, salmon, trout, wild flowers, woodlice, penguins, a million species, half of all animal and plant species, less, not polar bears), experts muzzled, extreme changes to California.
Famine, farmers go under, figurehead sacked, fish catches drop, fish catches rise, fish stocks decline, five million illnesses, floods, Florida economic decline, food poisoning, food prices rise, food security threat (SA), footpath erosion, forest decline, forest expansion, frosts, fungi invasion, Garden of Eden wilts, genetic diversity decline, gene pools slashed, glacial retreat, glacial growth, glacier wrapped, global cooling, global dimming, glowing clouds, Gore omnipresence, grandstanding, grasslands wetter, Great Barrier Reef 95% dead, Great Lakes drop, greening of the North, Gulf Stream failure, habitat loss, Hantavirus pulmonary syndrome, harvest increase, harvest shrinkage, hay fever epidemic, hazardous waste sites breached, heat waves, hibernation ends too soon, hibernation ends too late, high court debates, human fertility reduced, human health improvement, human health risk, hurricanes, hydropower problems, hyperthermia deaths.
Ice sheet growth, ice sheet shrinkage, inclement weather, infrastructure failure (Canada), Inuit displacement, Inuit poisoned, Inuit suing, industry threatened, infectious diseases, insurance premium rises, invasion of midges, island disappears, islands sinking, itchier poison ivy, jellyfish explosion, Kew Gardens taxed, krill decline, lake and stream productivity decline, landslides, landslides of ice at 140 mph, lawsuits increase, lawsuit successful, lawyers’ income increased (surprise, surprise!), lightning related insurance claims, little response in the atmosphere, Lyme disease.
Malaria, malnutrition, Maple syrup shortage, marine diseases, marine food chain decimated, marine dead zone, Meaching (end of the world), megacryometeors, Melanoma, methane emissions from plants, methane burps, melting permafrost, Middle Kingdom convulses, migration, migration difficult (birds), microbes to decompose soil carbon more rapidly, more bad air days, more research needed, mountain (Everest) shrinking, mountains break up, mountains taller, mudslides, next ice age, Nile delta damaged, no effect in India, nuclear plants bloom, oaks move north, ocean acidification, outdoor hockey threatened, oyster diseases, ozone loss, ozone repair slowed, ozone rise.
Pacific dead zone, personal carbon rationing, pest outbreaks, pests increase, phenology shifts, plankton blooms, plankton destabilised, plankton loss, plant viruses, plants march north, polar bears aggressive, polar bears cannibalistic, polar bears drowning, polar bears starve, polar tours scrapped, psychosocial disturbances, railroad tracks deformed, rainfall increase, rainfall reduction, refugees, reindeer larger, release of ancient frozen viruses, resorts disappear, rice yields crash, rift on Capitol Hill, rioting and nuclear war, rivers raised, rivers dry up, rockfalls, rocky peaks crack apart, roof of the world a desert, Ross river disease.
Salinity reduction, salinity increase, Salmonella, salmon stronger, sea level rise, sea level rise faster, sex change, sharks booming, shrinking ponds, ski resorts threatened, slow death, smog, snowfall increase, snowfall reduction, societal collapse, songbirds change eating habits, sour grapes, spiders invade Scotland, squid population explosion, squirrels reproduce earlier, spectacular orchids, stormwater drains stressed.
Taxes, tectonic plate movement, terrorism, ticks move northward (Sweden), tides rise, tourism increase, trade winds weakened, tree beetle attacks, tree foliage increase (UK), tree growth slowed, trees could return to Antarctic, trees less colourful, trees more colourful, tropics expansion, tropopause raised, tsunamis, turtles lay earlier, UK Katrina, Venice flooded, volcanic eruptions.
Walrus pups orphaned, war, wars over water, water bills double, water supply unreliability, water scarcity (20% of increase), water stress, weather out of its mind, weather patterns awry, weeds, Western aid cancelled out, West Nile fever, whales move north, wheat yields crushed in Australia, white Christmas dream ends, wildfires, wind shift, wind reduced, wine - harm to Australian industry, wine industry damage (California), wine industry disaster (US), wine - more English, wine -German boon, wine - no more French , winters in Britain colder, wolves eat more moose, wolves eat less, workers laid off, World bankruptcy, World in crisis, Yellow fever.

Enviro-statist alarmists claim that all of the following have been (or will be) caused by global warming.


Agricultural land increase, Africa devastated, African aid threatened, air pressure changes, Alaska reshaped, allergies increase, Alps melting, Amazon a desert, American dream end, amphibians breeding earlier (or not), ancient forests dramatically changed, Antarctic grass flourishes, anxiety, algal blooms, Arctic bogs melt, Asthma, atmospheric defiance, atmospheric circulation modified, avalanches reduced, avalanches increased, bananas destroyed, bananas grow, better beer, big melt faster, billion dollar research projects, billions of deaths, bird distributions change, birds return early, blackbirds stop singing, blizzards, blue mussels return, boredom, Britain Siberian, British gardens change, bubonic plague, budget increases, building season extension, bushfires, business opportunities, business risks, butterflies move north.

Cardiac arrest, caterpillar biomass shift, challenges and opportunities, Cholera, civil unrest, cloud increase, cloud stripping, cod go south, cold climate creatures survive, cold spells (Australia), computer models, conferences, coral bleaching, coral reefs dying, coral reefs grow, coral reefs shrink , cold spells, cost of trillions, crumbling roads, buildings and sewage systems, cyclones (Australia), damages equivalent to $200 billion, Dengue hemorrhagic fever, dermatitis, desert advance, desert life threatened, desert retreat, destruction of the environment, diarrhoea, disappearance of coastal cities, diseases move north, Dolomites collapse, drought, drowning people, ducks and geese decline, dust bowl in the corn belt.

Early spring, earlier pollen season, Earth biodiversity crisis, Earth dying, Earth even hotter, Earth light dimming, Earth lopsided, Earth melting, Earth morbid fever, Earth on fast track, Earth past point of no return, Earth slowing down, Earth spinning out of control, Earth to explode, earth upside down, Earth wobbling, earthquakes, El NiZo intensification, erosion, emerging infections, encephalitis, Europe simultaneously baking and freezing, evolution accelerating, expansion of university climate groups, extinctions (human, civilisation, logic, Inuit, smallest butterfly, cod, ladybirds, bats, pandas, pikas, polar bears, pigmy possums, gorillas, koalas, walrus, whales, frogs, toads, turtles, orang-utan, elephants, tigers, plants, salmon, trout, wild flowers, woodlice, penguins, a million species, half of all animal and plant species, less, not polar bears), experts muzzled, extreme changes to California.

Famine, farmers go under, figurehead sacked, fish catches drop, fish catches rise, fish stocks decline, five million illnesses, floods, Florida economic decline, food poisoning, food prices rise, food security threat (SA), footpath erosion, forest decline, forest expansion, frosts, fungi invasion, Garden of Eden wilts, genetic diversity decline, gene pools slashed, glacial retreat, glacial growth, glacier wrapped, global cooling, global dimming, glowing clouds, Gore omnipresence, grandstanding, grasslands wetter, Great Barrier Reef 95% dead, Great Lakes drop, greening of the North, Gulf Stream failure, habitat loss, Hantavirus pulmonary syndrome, harvest increase, harvest shrinkage, hay fever epidemic, hazardous waste sites breached, heat waves, hibernation ends too soon, hibernation ends too late, high court debates, human fertility reduced, human health improvement, human health risk, hurricanes, hydropower problems, hyperthermia deaths.

Ice sheet growth, ice sheet shrinkage, inclement weather, infrastructure failure (Canada), Inuit displacement, Inuit poisoned, Inuit suing, industry threatened, infectious diseases, insurance premium rises, invasion of midges, island disappears, islands sinking, itchier poison ivy, jellyfish explosion, Kew Gardens taxed, krill decline, lake and stream productivity decline, landslides, landslides of ice at 140 mph, lawsuits increase, lawsuit successful, lawyers’ income increased (surprise, surprise!), lightning related insurance claims, little response in the atmosphere, Lyme disease.

Malaria, malnutrition, Maple syrup shortage, marine diseases, marine food chain decimated, marine dead zone, Meaching (end of the world), megacryometeors, Melanoma, methane emissions from plants, methane burps, melting permafrost, Middle Kingdom convulses, migration, migration difficult (birds), microbes to decompose soil carbon more rapidly, more bad air days, more research needed, mountain (Everest) shrinking, mountains break up, mountains taller, mudslides, next ice age, Nile delta damaged, no effect in India, nuclear plants bloom, oaks move north, ocean acidification, outdoor hockey threatened, oyster diseases, ozone loss, ozone repair slowed, ozone rise.

Pacific dead zone, personal carbon rationing, pest outbreaks, pests increase, phenology shifts, plankton blooms, plankton destabilised, plankton loss, plant viruses, plants march north, polar bears aggressive, polar bears cannibalistic, polar bears drowning, polar bears starve, polar tours scrapped, psychosocial disturbances, railroad tracks deformed, rainfall increase, rainfall reduction, refugees, reindeer larger, release of ancient frozen viruses, resorts disappear, rice yields crash, rift on Capitol Hill, rioting and nuclear war, rivers raised, rivers dry up, rockfalls, rocky peaks crack apart, roof of the world a desert, Ross river disease.

Salinity reduction, salinity increase, Salmonella, salmon stronger, sea level rise, sea level rise faster, sex change, sharks booming, shrinking ponds, ski resorts threatened, slow death, smog, snowfall increase, snowfall reduction, societal collapse, songbirds change eating habits, sour grapes, spiders invade Scotland, squid population explosion, squirrels reproduce earlier, spectacular orchids, stormwater drains stressed.

Taxes, tectonic plate movement, terrorism, ticks move northward (Sweden), tides rise, tourism increase, trade winds weakened, tree beetle attacks, tree foliage increase (UK), tree growth slowed, trees could return to Antarctic, trees less colourful, trees more colourful, tropics expansion, tropopause raised, tsunamis, turtles lay earlier, UK Katrina, Venice flooded, volcanic eruptions.

Walrus pups orphaned, war, wars over water, water bills double, water supply unreliability, water scarcity (20% of increase), water stress, weather out of its mind, weather patterns awry, weeds, Western aid cancelled out, West Nile fever, whales move north, wheat yields crushed in Australia, white Christmas dream ends, wildfires, wind shift, wind reduced, wine - harm to Australian industry, wine industry damage (California), wine industry disaster (US), wine - more English, wine -German boon, wine - no more French , winters in Britain colder, wolves eat more moose, wolves eat less, workers laid off, World bankruptcy, World in crisis, Yellow fever.

Satan doesn't force people to do evil, nor do people get confused about what is right and wrong. Everyone has a god given conscience which tells them right from wrong. God allows people to use their free will choice, and He allows them to reap the consequences of their actions. He gives them every chance to repent and gives them fair warning of the consequences if they don't. Everyone has a real chance to prove themselves in this world, and if they prove themselves to be evil, then that is what they are. God isn't looking to send people to hell, but if they prefer doing evil then they deserve to go there.

This isn't about what you consider fair, lets just lay that joke to rest. This is about your desire for personal autonomy and your rejection of Gods authority. It's your desire to sin without consequence. Like every other unrepentent sinner, you are a hypocrite who shakes his fist at God because he knows full well that he is guilty and doesn't want to be judged for it. You refuse to come to God for forgiveness because you prefer your sins.

John 3:19

This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

>> ^MaxWilder:
>> ^shinyblurry:
Why do you leap to that conclusion when God gave His creatures free will? That includes angels.. Surely, it is ridiculous for a created being to think they could ultimately challenge Gods authority, but the sin of pride has a way of clouding someones judgement.
>> ^MaxWilder:
Damn, this is a lot more boring than I expected. There's nothing here about how a created entity can even think about challenging an omnipotent, omniscient being. Spending any more than two seconds to think about the concept of Lucifer's defiance would lead to the conclusion that God is neither. That is, if you believe that Satan exists.


Ah, yes. The sin of pride. Like when people think they would know more about the nature of God than the angels themselves.
It's simple deduction, SB. If God is omnipotent and omniscient, then there simply is no battle. Free will has nothing to do with it. God could simply will Satan out of existence, or into a prison, or whatever he wants.
IF God was omnipotent, AND Satan existed, then everything Satan does is because God allows it. That would INCLUDE allowing Satan to think he had a chance of defeating an omnipotent being. AND allowing Satan to delude us imperfect mortals into turning against God, which damns our eternal souls.
So the "gift" of freewill ends up being nothing more or less than a mechanism to send conscious beings into eternal torture. And what do we call people who consciously conduct, condone, or even allow torture to exist when there was something that could stop it? We call that Evil.
And I am again led to the same conclusion. All this talk of God is nonsense. Even if he existed in the way you claim he does, he's an asshole of cosmic proportions, and I want nothing to do with him.

>> ^shinyblurry:

Why do you leap to that conclusion when God gave His creatures free will? That includes angels.. Surely, it is ridiculous for a created being to think they could ultimately challenge Gods authority, but the sin of pride has a way of clouding someones judgement.
>> ^MaxWilder:
Damn, this is a lot more boring than I expected. There's nothing here about how a created entity can even think about challenging an omnipotent, omniscient being. Spending any more than two seconds to think about the concept of Lucifer's defiance would lead to the conclusion that God is neither. That is, if you believe that Satan exists.



Ah, yes. The sin of pride. Like when people think they would know more about the nature of God than the angels themselves.

It's simple deduction, SB. If God is omnipotent and omniscient, then there simply is no battle. Free will has nothing to do with it. God could simply will Satan out of existence, or into a prison, or whatever he wants.

IF God was omnipotent, AND Satan existed, then everything Satan does is because God allows it. That would INCLUDE allowing Satan to think he had a chance of defeating an omnipotent being. AND allowing Satan to delude us imperfect mortals into turning against God, which damns our eternal souls.

So the "gift" of freewill ends up being nothing more or less than a mechanism to send conscious beings into eternal torture. And what do we call people who consciously conduct, condone, or even allow torture to exist when there was something that could stop it? We call that Evil.

And I am again led to the same conclusion. All this talk of God is nonsense. Even if he existed in the way you claim he does, he's an asshole of cosmic proportions, and I want nothing to do with him.

Why do you leap to that conclusion when God gave His creatures free will? That includes angels.. Surely, it is ridiculous for a created being to think they could ultimately challenge Gods authority, but the sin of pride has a way of clouding someones judgement.

>> ^MaxWilder:
Damn, this is a lot more boring than I expected. There's nothing here about how a created entity can even think about challenging an omnipotent, omniscient being. Spending any more than two seconds to think about the concept of Lucifer's defiance would lead to the conclusion that God is neither. That is, if you believe that Satan exists.

Damn, this is a lot more boring than I expected. There's nothing here about how a created entity can even think about challenging an omnipotent, omniscient being. Spending any more than two seconds to think about the concept of Lucifer's defiance would lead to the conclusion that God is neither. That is, if you believe that Satan exists.

Just to add a fact to this comment stream -- I actually doubt much had happened before the cop walked over. The man running this protest had posted a YT video, calling people to come down and dance in defiance of the law. Announced the time and the place. To show "the man" that their freedoms couldn't be trampled on.

So probably nothing happened -- the cop probably recognized them from the vid, came over and said -- dance and you will be arrested.

There is another "protest" planned for this Saturday. Time has already been chosen and announced on the news.

It will be interesting to see what the mall cops have learned from this event. I hope they stand around and do nothing, patiently waiting for it to be over. That will take all the fun out of it, I suspect.

So much energy wasted on such a silly thing. When there are real problems with police misconduct to protest against.