Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)

What a train wreck. Steve Ballmer said that Windows 8 would be an OS "without compromises" meaning that it would have all of the elegance and conservation of a tablet OS with the standard work horse features of regular Windows. In practice - this doesn't work.

I like the Metro UI - works great on phones - and I expect that the Surface (RT edition) will also be great - for standard desktops though, this will be a bigger fiasco than Vista.

Microsoft has people who care about design (see Metro on phones) but unfortunately, they're not calling the shots - never let the sales guys make your product decisions.

Ctrl+L is not esoteric and plenty of people use keyboard shortcuts. I don't care whether it's part of a Windows library or not but if it's widely used across existing Windows installations you'd expect to be able to use them again in the new version of Windows. But if the new interface is going to disconnect from the desktop experience I just don't understand why it has to be linked at all to the desktop. Schizophrenic indeed. The user-interface needs to be consistent and harmonious. Hasn't everyone got that memo by now?

What they're showing with the search failures is that demonstrates a lack of focus on making the desktop interface as polished and user-friendly as possible. If nothing else it appears rushed and sloppy.

I want the system to be gleaming right out of the box - I don't want to have to note all the little exceptions and workarounds . Clearly in some aspects they've put in some work with multi-monitor support and Explorer but in other areas it looks incomplete.

>> ^spoco2:

Yeah, I'm not sold on the whole interface at all. BUT these guys are also missing things which I got pretty much straight away.
The typing to search for things, and not finding 'device manager' et al... if they just looked then below the search box it shows that it's matched items within Apps/Settings/Files So the default is to show just the apps that match, but if he clicked on 'Settings' then it would have shown him what he was looking for without having to actually go to control panel first. And my guess is there's an option for the search results to list all three of those things. DO THEY NOT LOOK AT THE SCREEN... Arg... now they're doing it for printers. The screen says 'NO APPS MATCH YOUR SEARCH', and then it has 17 matches in settings, and some matches in files.

Then they start bitching about Control L, which isn't a windows thing at all
The tabs thing is definitely something to bitch about, as it makes zero logical sense to have everything hidden off screen and not be able to access things without right clicking.

Yes, it looks like Microsoft have not considered non touch interfaces enough, which is a huge oversight. And it really seems they've taken something that was working really well, Windows 7, and stuffed touch stuff over the top and then said it was all done without looking at whether it was a cohesive whole.

So I don't like the look of windows 8 for non touch devices, but these guys jump to conclusions, don't read the interface properly and assume that everyone is a power user who uses the esoteric key combos they use (even when they're specific to particular apps).

Oooor, Microsoft is just self fulfilling the old 'Every second one of their OSs is good' thing.

They made Vista for people to hate, then they released Windows 7 and people were falling over themselves to love it.

They're making Windows 8 for people to hate, then they'll release Windows 9 and people will wet themselves over how much they love it.

>> ^Sagemind:

I was waiting for Win 8 before I bought a new computer - now it looks like I need to hurry up and buy one with Win 7 before I can't get it any more.


With how unpopular Win 8 already is, I don't think Microsoft is going to shoot themselves in the dick by not selling Win 7 any more. Much like how they changed their plans about discontinuing XP when Vista bombed.

And, like with Vista, I think MS eventually learns from commercial failure. Maybe Windows 9 will be what this should have been.

There are two things that I think are overlooked with Windows 8...

First up it's an operating system that has a UI designed specifically for touch input. The UI is obviously not intended for regular desktop usage, and is Microsoft's attempt at reaching out to the consumer market. Let's face it, Microsoft has pretty much got the business side of things covered with Windows 7, and there is still a large business user base who have yet to put migrations to Windows 7 into effect. Why use a keyboard and mouse with an operating system designed for touch input? Windows 7 will be available for a long time yet, because Microsoft know Windows 8 is a stretch too far for most businesses.

The other thing to keep in mind is that the whole desktop UI is still there, and you can run your entire Windows session in the traditional desktop without having to step in and out of the "modern UI" (aka metro) shell. The start menu is lacking, but easily recreated with a shortcut to the start menu folder in your user profile pinned to the task bar.

Yep, there'll be many geeks who wanted to persuade their bosses that everyone needs their monitors replaced with touchscreens but let's face it, Windows 8 is a consumer product and is not yet geared up for business use. Touch input is slowly creeping into the business world with many executives loving their shiny pads/tablets/slabs that make them look professional. It'll be a bit longer before tech departments start envisioning an overhaul of their entire workstation setups and are willing to embrace Windows 8.

One last thought crossed my mind... As far as touch input goes, Windows 8 is pretty sweet.

Yeah, I'm not sold on the whole interface at all. BUT these guys are also missing things which I got pretty much straight away.

* The typing to search for things, and not finding 'device manager' et al... if they just looked then below the search box it shows that it's matched items within Apps/Settings/Files So the default is to show just the apps that match, but if he clicked on 'Settings' then it would have shown him what he was looking for without having to actually go to control panel first. And my guess is there's an option for the search results to list all three of those things. DO THEY NOT LOOK AT THE SCREEN... Arg... now they're doing it for printers. The screen says 'NO APPS MATCH YOUR SEARCH', and then it has 17 matches in settings, and some matches in files.


* Then they start bitching about Control L, which isn't a windows thing at all

* The tabs thing is definitely something to bitch about, as it makes zero logical sense to have everything hidden off screen and not be able to access things without right clicking.


Yes, it looks like Microsoft have not considered non touch interfaces enough, which is a huge oversight. And it really seems they've taken something that was working really well, Windows 7, and stuffed touch stuff over the top and then said it was all done without looking at whether it was a cohesive whole.


So I don't like the look of windows 8 for non touch devices, but these guys jump to conclusions, don't read the interface properly and assume that everyone is a power user who uses the esoteric key combos they use (even when they're specific to particular apps).

Acriticalpath microsoft certifications offers several lines of certification in areas such as network administration, systems engineering, and even database programming. Our MS Word tips that will help enable you to master MS Word.

^ yes started in part by nathan myhrvold, ex-microsoft billionaire

A close friend of mine has worked at Microsoft for YEARS and this seems completely plausible. The stories he has told me are far more bizarre.

History will sort it out for you. 100 years from now everyone will remember the iPad is just a rehashed Microsoft Surface, and the iPhone is just a Samsung Galaxy with a small screen.

>> ^shuac:

Very true. And while all technology products are derivative of earlier products to some degree, I think Microsoft does more bandwagon-jumping than most. Let's look at the evidence.
Java, made by Sun. "Reimagined" by Microsoft.
Console gaming, made by Atari, Nintendo, Sega, Sony, et al. Microsoft gives us Xbox.
Online Music, pioneered by Napster, made legitimate by Apple. Microsoft gives us MSN Music.
MP3 player, pioneered by Rio, made super popular by Apple. Microsoft gives us Zune.
Internet search, pioneered by Archie in 1990, made insanely profitable by Google. Microsoft gives us MSN. And Live Search. And Bing.
Far as tablet computing goes, Microsoft actually has a much bigger history than Apple. I remember MS peddling tablets back in 2001 with XP. Trouble is, XP was never designed as a touch interface. Even as recent as 2008, Microsoft tried this strategy with the Origami.
The innovation Apple made is to take its smartphone OS (whose design is based on touch) and pull it up to the tablet rather than take a full-blown desktop OS and push it down. This is the idea Microsoft is copying with Surface and Windows 8.
Other than Kinect, which is an innovative product since it is more than merely a response to the Wii, I'm not sure Microsoft invented anything. Even its flagship Office suite is based on earlier software (WordStar, WordPerfect, dBase, Lotus 1-2-3). In fact, when Microsoft first licensed MS-DOS to IBM for a huge profit back in 1981, it was essentially QDOS, which they purchased outright from some guy for $50,000. Deal of the century.
You may say, "Well Apple didn't invent the MP3 player. Why aren't they guilty of copying too?"
They are. But Microsoft's history is rife with this sort of "me-too" thing in a way no other company's is. Let me distil my point into one sentence: How many companies are copying Microsoft's products?
To sum up: Microsoft is slim on innovation, fat on looking over the shoulders of the smart kids in class...>> ^Sarzy:
>> ^mtadd:
Microsoft never fails to innovate their name on someone else's product.

Yes, because the iPad was, of course, the first tablet ever.



Cool story bro.

No, seriously though, you do raise some interesting arguments. The only point I was trying to make is that it seems a bit reductionist to dismiss the Surface as merely an iPad clone, when it seems like Microsoft is legitimately trying to do some interesting things with it and Windows 8, rather than just jumping on the iPad bandwagon.

Very true. And while all technology products are derivative of earlier products to some degree, I think Microsoft does more bandwagon-jumping than most. Let's look at the evidence.

* Java, made by Sun. "Reimagined" by Microsoft.
* Console gaming, made by Atari, Nintendo, Sega, Sony, et al. Microsoft gives us Xbox.
* Online Music, pioneered by Napster, made legitimate by Apple. Microsoft gives us MSN Music.
* MP3 player, pioneered by Rio, made super popular by Apple. Microsoft gives us Zune.
* Internet search, pioneered by Archie in 1990, made insanely profitable by Google. Microsoft gives us MSN. And Live Search. And Bing.

Far as tablet computing goes, Microsoft actually has a much bigger history than Apple. I remember MS peddling tablets back in 2001 with XP. Trouble is, XP was never designed as a touch interface. Even as recent as 2008, Microsoft tried this strategy with the Origami.

The innovation Apple made is to take its smartphone OS (whose design is based on touch) and pull it up to the tablet rather than take a full-blown desktop OS and push it down. This is the idea Microsoft is copying with Surface and Windows 8.

Other than Kinect, which is an innovative product since it is more than merely a response to the Wii, I'm not sure Microsoft invented anything. Even its flagship Office suite is based on earlier software (WordStar, WordPerfect, dBase, Lotus 1-2-3). In fact, when Microsoft first licensed MS-DOS to IBM for a huge profit back in 1981, it was essentially QDOS, which they purchased outright from some guy for $50,000. Deal of the century.

You may say, "Well Apple didn't invent the MP3 player. Why aren't they guilty of copying too?"

They are. But Microsoft's history is rife with this sort of "me-too" thing in a way no other company's is. Let me distil my point into one sentence: How many companies are copying Microsoft's products?

To sum up: Microsoft is slim on innovation, fat on looking over the shoulders of the smart kids in class...>> ^Sarzy:

>> ^mtadd:
Microsoft never fails to innovate their name on someone else's product.

Yes, because the iPad was, of course, the first tablet ever.

Microsoft never fails to innovate their name on someone else's product.

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