Oil & Water
I'm still in the US visiting friends and family. Having this much time on my hands puts me in a ruminative mood. A conversation I had with @lucky760 got me thinking about the differences between communities and businesses.
The difference is that they are completely in opposition and cannot exist in the same space. This sounds a bit absurd - I know there are lots of companies that work to have "communities" attached to them. Community is one of those words thrown in to the mix of any and all online endeavours, a bit like social networking. In my mind though, a community has a very clear definition: A group of people working altruistically together to create something that could not otherwise be accomplished by an individual.
Altruistic is the key word in that definition for me. Community members give their effort away and push others up in their participation. Business people work in opposition to altruism. It's self-interest all the way. The goal of any business is to make money. That doesn't make business bad. We need them - I need to be paid - but it certainly puts them in opposition to communities.
Any time an IT company talks about their "developer community" you should substitute the words "user group". Because the user group works to create monetary value for the business and value for its contituent members. Not a community.
Communities and businesses can definitely be complementary. I think about the Minecraft community. It's an amazing bunch of nerds building imaginitive, cool stuff to bolt on to MineCraft. It's a community. They do not work at the behest of Notch or his company, they do it because they love it, and they do it together - and undoubtably Notch and his company benefits.
Narrowing in on VideoSift - We're registered as a company, we do some commercial things to support our site - but I think, we are a community. The members and admins here work together, not at my or any company's orders - but because it gives us a little rush to find and push up someone else's cool video or find something that you know another Sifter will love. That's how things operate here.
We're probably never going to be a real business. And that's OK.
The difference is that they are completely in opposition and cannot exist in the same space. This sounds a bit absurd - I know there are lots of companies that work to have "communities" attached to them. Community is one of those words thrown in to the mix of any and all online endeavours, a bit like social networking. In my mind though, a community has a very clear definition: A group of people working altruistically together to create something that could not otherwise be accomplished by an individual.
Altruistic is the key word in that definition for me. Community members give their effort away and push others up in their participation. Business people work in opposition to altruism. It's self-interest all the way. The goal of any business is to make money. That doesn't make business bad. We need them - I need to be paid - but it certainly puts them in opposition to communities.
Any time an IT company talks about their "developer community" you should substitute the words "user group". Because the user group works to create monetary value for the business and value for its contituent members. Not a community.
Communities and businesses can definitely be complementary. I think about the Minecraft community. It's an amazing bunch of nerds building imaginitive, cool stuff to bolt on to MineCraft. It's a community. They do not work at the behest of Notch or his company, they do it because they love it, and they do it together - and undoubtably Notch and his company benefits.
Narrowing in on VideoSift - We're registered as a company, we do some commercial things to support our site - but I think, we are a community. The members and admins here work together, not at my or any company's orders - but because it gives us a little rush to find and push up someone else's cool video or find something that you know another Sifter will love. That's how things operate here.
We're probably never going to be a real business. And that's OK.
21 Comments
kymbosSo that's why I'm not getting paid for this.
UsesProzacI love the Sift. If I had a regular income, I'd totally go charter. I'd support the Sift a lot more if I could. I often wonder how you and Lucky keep the Sift up. Does it cost you two a lot of money? I know it takes a lot of your personal time and it can be quite thankless; we Sifters can be a fickle lot and often bicker amongst ourselves.
I come here for the community more than the videos, honestly. At first it was the videos, but when I saw the quality of the comments and discussions, it was very plain to me that the Sift is a place peopled with intelligent people who are artists, creators, musicians, photographers, philosophers, etc. I love this place. If I can do anything to help you, dag, I will certainly try.
xxovercastxxSince this is a community and a not a business, I guess you won't be offended by my userstyle that hides all your giant ads.
dagComment hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)
Offended? No. But you make Baby Siftbot cry.>> ^xxovercastxx:
Since this is a community and a not a business, I guess you won't be offended by my userstyle that hides all your giant ads.
xxovercastxx>> ^dag:
Offended? No. But you make Baby Siftbot cry.>> ^xxovercastxx:
Since this is a community and a not a business, I guess you won't be offended by my userstyle that hides all your giant ads.
The visual assault that is an unfiltered videosift experience makes me want to stop visiting, so I guess the can and I are even.
dystopianfuturetoday@berticus turned me on to a great book by Dan Ariely called Predictably Irrational, which is about behavioral economics. Ariely's research comes to the conclusion that we behave differently based on whether we view a situation as a business or social interaction. Business transactions are governed by greed and self interest; social interactions are governed by empathy and compassion. It's not a political book, per se, but it does seem to explain a lot about the psychology behind the political divide.
In one of the more simple experiments in the book, he sets out a table of chocolates at MIT with a sign that says free chocolates. Because money is not involved, the students operate under social norms and only take one or two chocolates, leaving plenty of free chocolates for other students. When the experiment is repeated with a 1 cent price tag attached to the chocolate, the students operate under market norms and are much more greedy.
It's a fun and interesting read that pretty much makes the same point you make above.... but with science. Worth a look.
(on a side note, I finally have internet at the place I'm staying! YAY! I've gone without for over a month. I've also started playing Minecraft which is strangely addictive for a game about hitting pixelated blocks with an Axe.)
dagComment hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)
That sounds like a book I want to read - and yeah - totally validates what I was trying to say above.>> ^dystopianfuturetoday:
@berticus turned me on to a great book by Dan Ariely called Predictably Irrational, which is about behavioral economics. Ariely's research comes to the conclusion that we behave differently based on whether we view a situation as a business or social interaction. Business transactions are governed by greed and self interest; social interactions are governed by empathy and compassion. It's not a political book, per se, but it does seem to explain a lot about the psychology behind the political divide.
In one of the more simple experiments in the book, he sets out a table of chocolates at MIT with a sign that says free chocolates. Because money is not involved, the students operate under social norms and only take one or two chocolates, leaving plenty of free chocolates for other students. When the experiment is repeated with a 1 cent price tag attached to the chocolate, the students operate under market norms and are much more greedy.
It's a fun and interesting read that pretty much makes the same point you make above.... but with science. Worth a look.
(on a side note, I finally have internet at the place I'm staying! YAY! I've gone without for over a month. I've also started playing Minecraft which is strangely addictive for a game about hitting pixelated blocks with an Axe.)
dagComment hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)
In our defense - I don't think we have any more ads than a standard news site. Even communities have to pay bills.>> ^xxovercastxx:
>> ^dag:
Offended? No. But you make Baby Siftbot cry.>> ^xxovercastxx:
Since this is a community and a not a business, I guess you won't be offended by my userstyle that hides all your giant ads.
The visual assault that is an unfiltered videosift experience makes me want to stop visiting, so I guess the can and I are even.
dagComment hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)
Even though we have a server bill in the thousands, the sift does manage to pay for itself through advertising - but not with much fat left over.>> ^UsesProzac:
I love the Sift. If I had a regular income, I'd totally go charter. I'd support the Sift a lot more if I could. I often wonder how you and Lucky keep the Sift up. Does it cost you two a lot of money? I know it takes a lot of your personal time and it can be quite thankless; we Sifters can be a fickle lot and often bicker amongst ourselves.
I come here for the community more than the videos, honestly. At first it was the videos, but when I saw the quality of the comments and discussions, it was very plain to me that the Sift is a place peopled with intelligent people who are artists, creators, musicians, photographers, philosophers, etc. I love this place. If I can do anything to help you, dag, I will certainly try.
xxovercastxx>> ^dag:
In our defense - I don't think we have any more ads than a standard news site. Even communities have to pay bills.
I can respect that you've got bills to pay. I also do not mean to sound unappreciative that you do all this at no cost to us (and little to no profit to yourself).
The ads are just gigantic. I estimate that the initial view when I load a video page is 1/3rd ads. To make it worse, some are intermingled with the content (between the video and comments) and then there's the non-ad clutter. Do we really need a link to Like Videosift on both the top of the screen as well as the side? The giveaway announcement above the video? That's more prominent than polls which change the rules of the site. The Login with Facebook button could be on the login form page rather than the head of every page.
Some people probably don't consider all of these things clutter because they probably use some of them on a regular basis but when they're all thrown in together they start to remind me of... well... http://videosift.com/video/What-if-Microsoft-designed-the-iPod-packaging
UsesProzacIt's nice to hear that you and Lucky are managing to break even on this. Do you get anything from purchases to the VideoSift store?
dagComment hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)
It's a devils bargain - without the ads, VideoSift would cease to exist.>> ^xxovercastxx:
>> ^dag:
In our defense - I don't think we have any more ads than a standard news site. Even communities have to pay bills.
I can respect that you've got bills to pay. I also do not mean to sound unappreciative that you do all this at no cost to us (and little to no profit to yourself).
The ads are just gigantic. I estimate that the initial view when I load a video page is 1/3rd ads. To make it worse, some are intermingled with the content (between the video and comments) and then there's the non-ad clutter. Do we really need a link to Like Videosift on both the top of the screen as well as the side? The giveaway announcement above the video? That's more prominent than polls which change the rules of the site. The Login with Facebook button could be on the login form page rather than the head of every page.
Some people probably don't consider all of these things clutter because they probably use some of them on a regular basis but when they're all thrown in together they start to remind me of... well... http://videosift.com/video/What-if-Microsoft-designed-the-iPod-packagi
ng
xxovercastxx>> ^dag:
It's a devils bargain - without the ads, VideoSift would cease to exist.>> ^xxovercastxx:
>> ^dag:
In our defense - I don't think we have any more ads than a standard news site. Even communities have to pay bills.
I can respect that you've got bills to pay. I also do not mean to sound unappreciative that you do all this at no cost to us (and little to no profit to yourself).
The ads are just gigantic. I estimate that the initial view when I load a video page is 1/3rd ads. To make it worse, some are intermingled with the content (between the video and comments) and then there's the non-ad clutter. Do we really need a link to Like Videosift on both the top of the screen as well as the side? The giveaway announcement above the video? That's more prominent than polls which change the rules of the site. The Login with Facebook button could be on the login form page rather than the head of every page.
Some people probably don't consider all of these things clutter because they probably use some of them on a regular basis but when they're all thrown in together they start to remind me of... well... http://videosift.com/video/What-if-Microsoft-designed-the-iPod-packaging
But do they have to be so obtrusive?
dagComment hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)
Unfortunately, yes. Advertisers pay for their content to be noticed. I'm just glad we have an option, through charter membership, for Sifters to bypass all of it.>> ^xxovercastxx:
>> ^dag:
It's a devils bargain - without the ads, VideoSift would cease to exist.>> ^xxovercastxx:
>> ^dag:
In our defense - I don't think we have any more ads than a standard news site. Even communities have to pay bills.
I can respect that you've got bills to pay. I also do not mean to sound unappreciative that you do all this at no cost to us (and little to no profit to yourself).
The ads are just gigantic. I estimate that the initial view when I load a video page is 1/3rd ads. To make it worse, some are intermingled with the content (between the video and comments) and then there's the non-ad clutter. Do we really need a link to Like Videosift on both the top of the screen as well as the side? The giveaway announcement above the video? That's more prominent than polls which change the rules of the site. The Login with Facebook button could be on the login form page rather than the head of every page.
Some people probably don't consider all of these things clutter because they probably use some of them on a regular basis but when they're all thrown in together they start to remind me of... well... http://videosift.com/video/What-if-Microsoft-designed-the-iPod-packagi
ng
But do they have to be so obtrusive?
gwiz665I see videosift as an MMO. There's a selfish aspect to it and a social aspect to it. Both interact and both are important.
But then I suppose to a hammer, everything is a nail.
dagComment hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)
Sure we do- and to be honest, we're much happier getting revenue from our friends at Neatorama than the big ad networks.>> ^UsesProzac:
It's nice to hear that you and Lucky are managing to break even on this. Do you get anything from purchases to the VideoSift store?
RyjkyjOvercast,
Have you tried setting your screen to "loose" or maybe changing your resolution or something? The ads are such a small part of my screen that I don't really even see them anymore. I wonder what the difference between our settings is.
lucky760Makes me think about open source software. Their development communities are very comparable to VideoSift's.
Lots of people find a common bond and spend time/effort to contribute to the product. They do this out of their own self-interest in the process itself and interaction with other participants, not for any reward except self-fulfillment and the contentment provided by the rest of the community.
And of course, everyone else who doesn't participate can just harvest the fruits of the community's labor, enjoying all the content without ever providing anything in return.
And I think all that describes VideoSift's DNA. You would be hard-pressed to manufacture that type of community as a business plan, and if you did, it just wouldn't be the same.
xxovercastxx>> ^Ryjkyj:
Overcast,
Have you tried setting your screen to "loose" or maybe changing your resolution or something? The ads are such a small part of my screen that I don't really even see them anymore. I wonder what the difference between our settings is.
"loose" just makes a lot of whitespace between the sections. I'm on a 1920x1200 monitor, but I only maximize the browser vertically. It's the shop.videosift.com block just below the video that really gets on my nerves.
Most of the things I hide with my userstyle are not ads but features I just don't care about (like the Facebook login and integration, and the RSS block).
critical_dAn interesting article on the use of Ad Blocker software.
http://arstechnica.com/business/news/2010/03/why-ad-blocking-is-devastating-to-the-sites-you-love.ars
If nothing else, try to balance the like/love/lust for this site with an understanding of the $$$ it takes to keep the lights on.
deathcow> the sift does manage to pay for itself through advertising - but not with much fat left over.
Did you guys work out the issue with spotty Internet access on the jet?
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