@hpqp

I'm at work, so I can't write a very long reply and besides which many others (especially @aaronfr) have already expressed ideas similar to what I would have said, so I'm not sure it's even necessary. I will say that I think you've done a great job of responding to comments made in this thread and that the tone of your posts has improved dramatically (I see you've even gone back and toned down a post using the edit function) from when we used to spar on the forums. I know that was something you said you'd be working on, so kudos for that.

Just one thing I would like to point out: Islamophobia can be demonstrably shown to exist. You can see ample evidence of it in the NYPD's illegal surveillance of the entire Muslim community in the NY/NJ metropolitan area and the hysteric outcry that accompanies the building of new mosques in many U.S. states. I understand why you yourself would not want to be labeled an Islamophobe as you've taken great pains to explain your problem is with the religious texts and teachings and not people who happen to be Muslim. But certainly, I think you've recognized that, for example, Sam Harris advocating racial profiling is irrational and not a logical extension of his arguments against Islam's teachings.

Can we not agree then that Islamophobia--defined as an irrational fear of or hatred of Muslims simply because they subscribe to Islam--does in fact exist? I think it's difficult to maintain the position that it doesn't exist in the face of the discrimination many Muslims face in some Western countries.

Of course. That's what makes something nationally relevant. It doesn't even have to affect me. It just needs to impact more than some kid in New Mexico or something (I already don't remember). I'm just saying this isn't national news. There isn't some national epidemic of cops brutalizing 10 year olds.

There could be an epidemic of police brutality, and certainly of racial profiling. A human interest piece covering systemic coverups, dirty departments, anything that involved actual digging could be considered actual national news. In fact, many have been run by the "corporate media" on things like stop-and-frisk, terrorist profiling, and even things like corporate prison labor. I, like most lefties, am interested in well researched stories of that sort. This isn't that. It's some regurgitated local sob story. Typically their fact checking is bullshit to boot.

In other words they amplify noise and partisan rhetoric rather than inform. The Economist or the Times they are not. It's usually fine that they do what they do, it's just that you shouldn't confuse it for something that it isn't, like news.

>> ^scheherazade:

That really speaks to the general state of selfish humanity.
If it isn't affecting me, then I don't care.
People not affected by the economic downturn, don't care about the recession.
People not affected by psycho police, don't care about police brutality.
Enough people are affected by the economy for there to be a lot that want to hear about it in the news.
Only some people are sacrificed to the police gods, so only some care to hear about that in the news.
(Although with 1% of our population in jail, and 1 in 30 in jail or on parole, 1 in 9 black males ages 20 to 34 in jail, it's not that small of an amount... and it's particularly sinister when these people are shoved into private jails that charge the public to hold the prisoners, and then charge the prisoners for their stay [as if it's a hotel], and use the prisoners for cheap labor that they sell to companies that don't want to hire people for livable wages, with solitary if you don't work for them. - on top of most people in jail being guilty of "crimes" that involved no one but themselves and have no harm.)
Ultimately, when it's you that's out of a job, the economy matters a lot.
And when it's you getting tazed, beat up, and charged with assault (oh the irony), then police brutality matters a lot.
The sentiment of "don't waste my time with your sob stories, we've got real problems (that affect me)", really goes all ways.
You could just as well read : "Who cares about your economy, when the government is taking my health and putting me away for no more than the entertainment/venting of a public employee".
-scheherazade

All due respect but I take offense to you bringing race into this.

1). You don't know this guy's race, so to start, you are off base.
2). I don't understand how you think white people don't understand authority. I've never seen a get out of jail free card. That assumption is a generalization and is therefor again off base.
3). I know and respect border officials and know how to respond when they ask their questions. It has NOTHING to do with race. It has to do with respect of authority. Something this guy let slip and boom, he's detained. As expected as anyone of any ethnicity would be detained.

I (as a white guy) have never expected a free ride because of race and as such always respond or act in the required manner expected of myself as needed. Respect gets respect.

You are right - "He doesn't understand this situation at all"
But this is NOT a Minorities Game. This is an Authority Game. plain and simple.
Throwing derogatory race comments around isn't necessary.

Thank you for your consideration.
(Again,all due respect, I'm not trying to start something - just pointing out that calling out race is off-base and may be called racist in itself)

>> ^legacy0100:

WHITE PEOPLE ARE SOOOOOOOOOO FUNNY!!!! LOL He doesn't understand this situation at all!! LOL!
Authority figures don't want back talk or any type of attitude from you. Why? Because they are being fair. I know that sounds fucked up but hear me out. The ironic part about being fair is that in order to treat everyone equally, including illegal immigrants and smugglers, they have to be tough to EVERYONE so that they wouldn't be accused of being bias or be accused of racial profiling. So more crimes & illegal activities going on around the border, the tougher they have to treat regular innocent citizens. So look at it from a socio-economic perspective rather than just one isolated encounter. And be happy that everyone is now being treated equally. Yay.
The bottom line is that the officer is being fair, and the man IS resisting the officer. The funny part is that he thinks he's totally clean, and expects a special 'White Canadian' treatment, which he is denied. And he's raising a fuss over it because he just found out that he isn't SPECIAL anymore.
Minorities know all too well how this game goes, and I just find it fascinating how this Canadian couple (assumed Caucasian) just can't grasp the concept that he was defying the officer's orders just now, and has no fear of resisting an authority figure. This is such a fundamental difference in culture because every minority in North America would have been familiar with this drill before. Ready your papers, yes sir, no sir, show that you cooperate with the authorities, and be on your way. Also, most minorities are familiar with the repercussions of disobeying an authority figure, and would like more than anything to avoid that situation as the laws aren't so gentle and understanding when it comes to minorities. So minorities know exactly what to do in this situation.
However,(assumed non-minority) Canadian man thinks such treatment unto him is unfair and protests, demanding that the officer answer HIS questions instead of he answering the officer's questions. He sees the officer as his equal, and has no problem challenging him incessantly. I assume that he has never been treated this way before in his life, being treated just like the rest of the minorities have been for centuries. I just find this HILARIOUS. This just goes to show how divided our country really is, and how ironic to see that what is considered as normal practice to minorities, is deemed absolutely unacceptable to a white guy. Welcome to the life of minorities, friend!
Well perhaps he could take solace in the fact that everyone else being treated equally the same way in no regards to their race or ethnic country of origin. He should be happy this has happened to him (sarcasm!) Equality Achieved!

WHITE PEOPLE ARE SOOOOOOOOOO FUNNY!!!! LOL He doesn't understand this situation at all!! LOL!

Authority figures don't want back talk or any type of attitude from you. Why? Because being angry or having an attitude can incite to violence. This man obviously cannot control his temper. That's why they pulled him off the side in the first place. But secondly and most importantly, because the cops are being fair. I know that sounds fucked up but hear me out. The ironic part about being fair is that in order to treat everyone equally, including illegal immigrants and smugglers, they have to be tough to EVERYONE so that they wouldn't be accused of being bias or be accused of racial profiling. So more crimes & illegal activities going on around the border, the tougher they have to treat regular innocent citizens. So look at it from a socio-economic perspective rather than just one isolated encounter. And be happy that everyone is now being treated equally. Yay.

The bottom line is that the officer is being fair, and the man IS resisting the officer. The funny part is that he thinks he's totally clean, and expects a special 'White Canadian' treatment, which he is denied. And he's raising a fuss over it because he just found out that he isn't SPECIAL anymore.

Minorities know all too well how this game goes, and I just find it fascinating how this Canadian couple (assumed Caucasian) just can't grasp the concept that he was defying the officer's orders just now, and has no fear of resisting an authority figure. This is such a fundamental difference in culture because every minority in North America would have been familiar with this drill before. Ready your papers, yes sir, no sir, show that you cooperate with the authorities, and be on your way. Also, most minorities are familiar with the repercussions of disobeying an authority figure, and would like more than anything to avoid that situation as the laws aren't so gentle and understanding when it comes to minorities. So minorities know exactly what to do in this situation.

However,(assumed non-minority) Canadian man thinks such treatment unto him is unfair and protests, demanding that the officer answer HIS questions instead of he answering the officer's questions. He sees the officer as his equal, and has no problem challenging him incessantly. I assume that he has never been treated this way before in his life, being treated just like the rest of the minorities have been for centuries. I just find this HILARIOUS. This just goes to show how divided our country really is, and how ironic to see that what is considered as normal practice to minorities, is deemed absolutely unacceptable to a white guy. Welcome to the life of minorities, friend!

In Conclusion, this is Irony to the HIGHEST degree. The Canadian man in the video is being a hardcore ethnocentric asshole without him realizing it. The Officer is treating the Canadian couple the same way he/she would with any suspicious person or a minority. The Canadian man thinks he shouldn't be seen as a suspicious person. He is demanding a special treatment because he's not from Iraq and that being Canadian should allow him Special Privilege. He also admits he's not going to obey orders he doesn't agree? Huh? How is that his choice? Well perhaps he could take solace in the fact that everyone else being treated equally the same way in no regards to their race or ethnic country of origin. He should be happy this has happened to him (sarcasm!) Equality Achieved!

Who do you think "racist profiling" can refer to other than blacks? Those are this guy's own words, not TYT's. He could not possibly be suggesting that white people are complaining about getting racially profiled. He means black people are complaining about it. I don't see any other way to read it.>> ^Quboid:

I'm a little uncomfortable with how TYT assume this guy is using urban to mean black. From the little bit that they read out, there's nothing to suggest that this doesn't refer to poverty-stricken/dead-beat (delete as appropriate to your political beliefs) inner-city families of any race. The Martin family doesn't fit this group and I suspect it is due to racism that the fire chief assumed they did, but to me, TYT don't come out of this looking well.
It reminds me of this:
http://pic.epicfail.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/
facebook-comment-fail-racist-spotted.jpg

Meanwhile from the news crawl:

"Dick Cheney released from hospital" (TRAILER HOMES DESTROYED!)
"Same-sex couples file suit against Defense of Marriage act" (RVs RIPPED APART!)
"Image of NYC terror threat prompts probe" (YOU CAN SEE THE ROTATION!)
"Most police track phones' locations without warrants" (NO TRACTORS ATTACHED TO THEM!)
"World Trade Centre nears landmark height, reaches 100 floors" (SMALLISH TORNADO!)
"Urban archeologist uncover history beneath streets" (JUST PICKED THOSE THINGS UP!)
"Police: California shooting suspect shows no remorse" (NOTHING TO GET IN THEIR WAY!)
"New York plans to ban words from standardized tests" (15,000 POUNDS EMPTY!)
"Critics: NYPD's 'stop, question and frisk' policy is racial profiling" (IMAGINE THE POTENTIAL!)
"Analysis of video, audio could support both sides of Martin case" (KNOCKING ON DOORS!)
"Body of missing barista believed found in Alaska" (LOOK AT THOSE CARS!)

Quote from a new CNN article about the shootitng.

"Authorities have said Zimmerman has not been charged because there are no grounds to disprove his account that he acted in self defense. Critics say Zimmerman, who is Hispanic, racially profiled Martin, who was black."

Full Article
http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/30/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html?eref=mrss_igoogle_cnn



>> ^Auger8:

Okay I'm not saying Zimmerman is Mexican but he damn sure ain't white not by his mug shot. That's the only thing bugging me about this case is everyone calling him white, granted the dude is a piece of shit nutcase but he's the darkest "white" guy I've ever seen.
This Article has his mug shot from the arrest at the very top of the page you be the judge.
http://www.singleblackmale.org/2012/03/11/arrest-george-zimmerman/
>> ^Jinx:
>> ^Yogi:
I read in an article that Zimmerman is Mexican. Zimmerman! You can't make this shit up. Germanic name on a Mexican...sure.

I spent some time in a part of southern Mexico called Nueva Alemania. Between the Guatemalan immigrant workers and the 3rd/4th generation German immigrants I didn't really meet that many native Mexicans...

joe arpaio had his authority to identify illegal immigrants stripped from him, is infamous for racial profiling, among other things, and is just an all around jackass. sounds like a subject matter expert on obamas birth certificate to me. fucking idiots

What's more, Harris actually discusses the spectrum of that comment (muslims more likely to be terrorists) in the context of the discussion. They are having a discussion about racial profiling, privacy and security. His point isn't that all muslims should be subjected to intrusive searches at airports, just that the current system isn't doing much to prevent an attack. The old woman being frisked thing was an example of this failure.

I like Hedges, but not on religion. And, whenever he engages with Harris, he seems to pull the same crap of quoting him out of context.

I made it about 2 hours into the video and thought Rogan was pretty effective at calling out Harris when an exaggeration was made.

Racial profiling: It's funny when they do it to themselves.

I like everyone calling the guy with the camera an asshole. Hey, you know what? I, like most Americans, drive around a lot. I also drink alcohol maybe twice a year, a couple of glasses of wine at Christmas dinner. I don't need a bunch of assholes fucking stopping me in the middle of a road when I'm trying to get somewhere in my fucking car. You want to catch drunk drivers? Here's a fucking tip: not everyone who happens to be driving around at night is drunk, so leave me the fuck alone and go do something USEFUL. Everybody gets up in arms when police racially profile, but I don't see anyone defending me for being fucking driving-at-night profiled.

There are friendly, professional officers that count on people being ignorant of their rights. Police have no legal obligation to tell the truth, either.

I've seen a video where Stossel or somebody is sitting with an officer and testing a breathalyzer. The needle comes up "low" or negative, the officer taps the glass twice and the fking needle JUMPS to "intoxicated" levels.

Even if DUIs arrests hadn't warped from vague "protecting society" platitudes to an unexamined racket like Drug Prohibition, rights are rights, at all times, including late at night.

What's amazing is the number of sifters who are against police using racial profiling to "make the city safer" who approve of this racket.

>> ^longde:

I agree the guy isn't racist. He just has a callous, almost criminal disregard for his latino constituents. I don't know how that's better than him being a racist.

I find it rather fascinating how shy people have gotten about using the word racist.

What does one have to say or do these days to "be a racist?"

Does one have to be a full-on white supremacist?

IMO, a "callous, almost criminal disregard for latino constituents" is what racism is usually about. You don't have to go that last mile and actively hate minorities to be a racist; treating minorities like they're not real human beings is good enough to qualify you for the label.

It only makes it worse if someone's response to being told that what they said was insensitive is to launch into a tirade about how oppressed they are by the PC police. It makes me think they're mostly pissed off that they bit back the racial slurs they wanted to use in the first place, and still got crap anyways.

Add in the fuller context (he's being interviewed about the police being investigated for using racial profiling!) and it's hard for me not to call him much worse than "racist."

I'd be horrified if I ever said something like what this guy did, and would get very contrite very quickly in response to the "don't you think that's insensitive?" question, especially in a situation like that.

>> ^DuoJet:

This used to happen to my friends and me as white, middle-class teens. It's not always a race thing.


Well I'm white so if it's ever not about race it's an outrage. The very fact I have to be searched at an Airport makes me want to blow the entire fucking world up.

i think he is in Publix, not public

>> ^BoneRemake:

He is not in public, he is on private property